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It is not the first time that you bring up entitlement. In the Facesitting thread, you even said that SPs are reacting to the issue out of jealousy. If you want to talk in a civilized manner, that would be great if you keep the misogynistic stereotypes out of the discussion. As the SP who hijacked the Facesitting thread to call out the problematic, here's my point of view: I am an escort, I offer full service and my rates are established accordingly. MAs and Dancers will generally charge much less than an escort, yet they physically work A LOT harder. Giving a full body massage for an hour or dance all evening on a stage is physically highly demanding, a lot more than just sex and pillow talks. Escorts do a great deal of emotional labour, but so are the MAs and Dancers. Yet they choose this area of the sex industry regardless. Why? Physical boundaries, avoid stigma associated with full service workers, don't like to be touched by strangers, their SO not comfortable with their partner offering full service, physical limitations, etc. As an escort who's minimal introduction starts at $800, it doesn't add up in my head why a MA would charge $150 or so to work her ass off, only to end up providing the service of a SP. I think it is highly unfair to them. No, I don't think anyone is stealing labour from me. I have mentioned in the Facesitting thread that everyone are entitled to provide services they are comfortable with, but Cat made me changed my mind: if a MA wants to provide more than a HJ, she should not be doing so in a massage parlour, but in a hotel room. New, unexperienced MAs who just joined the business probably think it's the industry standard to offer extras. I therefore don't think massage providers do offer them out of greed and/or selfishness.

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It could be pinned. Get in touch with Mod and he can do it if he agrees. There are indeed some fantastic posts here... but the problem with this thread is that it started on another topic. The title is irrelevant to much of the discussion, the good stuff is a thread-hijack, and then you've got the mess caused by complaints about the hijack and people getting confused about which posts were in response to what because there were multiple conversations going on at once. All that serves to dilute the impact of it, and it's a crying shame because some of these posts really deserve to be given prominence. For future reference, everyone... follow Cat's example and kick off a new thread if need be. She knows how this stuff works.

Sorry but I don't buy into this argument. For a long time, we could find escort ads in newspapers. In places like Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, full columns and everyone knew what they were. Now they all moved online and not everyone is familiar on where to look to find providers. I recently visited Quebec city and couldn't find where the local SP's were advertising and very few used CL or BP. Ways of advertisement and communication have evolved, but to the public eye the sex trade still remains the same.

Not as long Trump remains in office. Keep in mind that on top of the "Access Hollywood" tape and the 15 women who went public, Trump was also accused of raping a 13-year-old girl in 1994. While that case was dropped for lack of evidence, it's hard to dismiss it when Trump seems to sympathise with known sexual predators like Jeffrey Epstein, Anthony Gilberthorpe and Roy Moore. Also, the circumstances on why the charges were dropped were never made clear. With Trump legal team's history of settling cases out of court, it's also hard to dismiss the possibility her silence was bought. While Moore lost, the fact Trump and the Republicans supported and funded him will always remain. If Trump can't get his tax plan done, Republicans will start to rebel a bit more publicly and think of their survival in the midterm elections.

Thank you Cat for bringing up this important conversation. I still remember when I provided massage rates. I would explain to a client that this was a happy ending. One client in particular said "I don't want intercourse" a number of times. So I thought he understood. However, as I was massaging him, he lifted his head up and licked my pussy. I stood back to use body language that this was not ok. As I again went to massage him, he did it again. I stopped and said "it looks like you want full service. Daty is not included." He again said "I don't want intercourse". So, his opinion is that full service means intercourse. My opinion is full service means any of my openings. Mouth, pussy or anus. I stopped saying no Greek and spelling out "no anal services" because so many thought that meant their penis. However their finger or tongue were ok. There is a push from clients for more and more for less and less. I do notice that the prolific reviewers typically rarely are ideal clients. It feels to me anyway that there are those that view sw's as a piece of meat they can use as they wish. Ideal clients are clear on boundaries. Consent must always be enthusiastic and continual. On both sides. So many providers grit their teeth and don't speak up during a session where the client has crossed the boundary. I've seen this myself, so know it happens. As a client, please make sure boundaries are clearly defined BEFORE the session begins. As a provider, please don't allow clients to get services from you that you don't want to provide. You have the right and obligation to say no. Clients must also speak out when they hear other guys say things that are clearly not ok.

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The Whorephobia that the concept of a hybrid MA embraces is ludicrous and undermines the human rights we are fighting so hard to achieve. An MA that offers any services other than manual release is in fact an Escort, plain and simple. If it goes in a hole, any hole, that is full service. We are all sexworkers, there is no shame in being a full service provider. The issue I have here is ethics, SWs doing things that undermine their peers safety and security. As I explained, an escort (any provider that offers any kind of full service) can offer any services she is comfortable with but it's illegal and unethical to offer them in either a strip club, a massage parlour or club. Nicolette Vaughan clearly explains that in the facesitting thread that she offers both but she works alone and protects each service as individual offerings. I in fact, offer both; with a separate massage spa and a playroom for full service. As a independent escorts, that option isn't a problem because we are not undermining other providers either in price or adding the pressure to provide services outside of the service divide because we work alone AND we are full service escorts. Offering massage or dance isn't a problem as long as we consent to providing the services. Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to a MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself? I don't see any reason anyone would feel targeted unless they know they are bleeding barrier divides (providing full service in spas and clubs) thus putting their peers in compromising situations. And if they are knowingly doing that, then they should be reflecting on their business practices and ethical position. They are on the wrong side of this and I'd be happy to sit down with pen and paper and show them exactly why. I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs should offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease? No, there is no permit to legally operate a brothel. It's illegal in every aspect. It would require criminal charges and pushing it through to a CSS challenge like Terry Bedford did. Then we would need to pray that the gov't in power made it legal instead of taking liberties away like they did with C36. So, the Spas and PMClubs allow full service while masquerading as legal enterprises when in fact what they are doing is illegal. They know what's happening and who it's happening with but they turn a blind eye. Only massage with manual release is legal in massage parlours and clubs. From a legal standpoint, owners who allow full service on site are endangering all of their contract workers if one of the workers is performing full service on site. Everyone in the location can be charged within common brothel laws; even the MA's who don't offer services and clients who don't receive them will charged as if they did and have to fight the charges in court to prove otherwise. From an ethical stance, owners are endangering their MA only providers ethically and legally. Even if they were to cover the legal costs of such fiasco, how do they repair the damage done with having a criminal record? They can't, you can't make the record of the charges disappear. But my concern isn't about the legal, it's about the day in day out abuse that SWs endure because of unethical clients and providers. Legally, independents can work independently and share space in small groups without issue for now but no one can own a business contracting workers and operating full service incall which includes strip clubs, spas and clubs. So, it's really quite simple. Independent sex workers can offer whatever services they are comfortable offering as long as they are in an independent location. Club contract workers, Dancers and MAs should offer what their location is legally in business to do. If a Dancer or MA wants to offer a client full service, take it off site into a separate location at an appropriate time. Not in the champaign rooms, not in the spa massage rooms. I hope this helps. smiles, cat

While the desire to ''get the most bang for the buck'' is understandable and legitimate, it should never involve pressuring or manipulating a provider to work outside of her comfort zone and boundaries, and must always involve clear and informed consent. It used to be that hockey players could just about kill each other on the ice, because it was considered a game, and as such outside of the purview of criminal prosecution as it was interpreted until relatively recently. As we all now know, the interpretation of the same Criminal Code today has resulted in a small number of hockey players being charged with assault. Following the ongoing Tsunami started by the Weinstein affair about sexual harassment of mostly women and what may be considered adequate consent; the societal goalposts have moved significantly on these issues. We can assume that the courts will interpret the laws on sexual assault and reasonable consent more stringently in line with the movement of public opinion in that same direction. The interpretation of laws by men and women who sit on the bench are guided by legal precedent, but also somewhat by the majority views of the population. I would guess that if we had taken the same survey of a random sampling of Canadian adults this time last year as we would today today, the views against those who sexually assault women have hardened significantly in that short period of time. And I would argue that the movement on that issue continues to move toward against any form of sexual harassment or assault. One only has to look at the Anti-harassment codes in the federal government, where an unwanted touching of a colleagues shoulder may result in a loss of employment. And such codes do not consider the intend of the accused when he touched his secretary's shoulder '' as a gesture of appreciation'', but more on how that gesture made the woman feel and whether she had consented to that specific touch prior to it happening. We can argue that the code makes it far too easy for false accusations to be made, but that is the direction such codes, regulations and laws are being written and interpreted. We can choose to ignore the shifting of these tectonic plates governing relations between men and women and act however we deem appropropriate, but the risks of such an approach are increasing quickly. So testing or pushing boundaries with a provider to see how far we can get, may now open that client being charged and convicted for sexual assault. But, more importantly, from an ethical point of view, the payment of money for sexual services should not in any way change the way we view consent and respect in our relations with SW's . Drawing on the arguments made by Cat in this regard, nothing should be assumed by a client when meeting a provider and unambiguous consent must be sought and obtained before doing something not already clearly agreed to. And even if agreed to beforehand, a provider may decide during the meeting to restrict certain services for a number of reasons, hence the expression YMMV. I would argue, that we men are able to know when we are about to go too far with a SP, MP or dancer. I can usually sense it by body language and facial expressions. I have known providers to give a physical signal, such as turning away or impeding access, which should be a clear enough signal we have already gone too far. But by that time the harm has been done, and a provider may legitimately feel that we have acted disrespectfully. Now, as clients we are happy when a provider is enthusiastic and shows warmth and genuine affection. But if disrespectful behaviour by clients occurs as little as 10% of all SP's and MP's appointments, let's say for argument; the emotional burden and suffering from being disrespected day after day, over a long period of time, not knowing when it will happen next, by potentially hundreds of different men; may have a cumulative effect that will force some women to quit the business, others to break down physically or emotionally, and for the majority to become hardened and more wary from these negative experiences. I don't know how we as clients can expect all SW's to be carefree, enthusiastic, and always horny and raring to go, if we know that they are subjected to demeaning behaviour on a daily basis. I don't know anyone who is subjected to disrespect in their workplace, if only by one person of authority, over a period of time who does not suffer greatly from a lack of self-esteem and and end up either severely depressed, forced to leave their job or worse. And this type of client-provider abuse must be serious and pervasive. One has just to look at the tweets of random providers to see how bad the situation is. As clients, we either bite the bullet, accept this is today's reality and actively do something to stop it, or we can continue to be a big part of the problem. While I would never think of the majority of men or male members of this board to be disrespectful in the way I have described, but we can still be active and part of the solution by supporting SW's rights and improved working and health care conditions, and by calling out other men who brag about how they pushed a vulnerable provider to provide the maximum mileage at the minimal cost and got all kinds of extras that she initially said she didn't provide. They should no longer find any website, bar, club house, locker room, water cooler or man cave where such pride in committing sexual assault will be tolerated, never mind encouraged. It will take guts and commitment, but change sometimes come one conversation or tiny action at a time. And for those of us who admit to have been disrespectful and taking advantage of the situation with SW's in the past, it is never too late to make amends and promise ourselves to do the honorable thing from now on.

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This thread is really upsetting, and I want to thank all of the service providers (both massage attendants and escorts) that have participated in it. What saddens (and enrages) me most is that what some of the clients in this thread have admitted to doing is something that happens all of the time, even by 'well-intentioned' and 'good' guys. So many men, in general, 'test their luck', push boundaries, and assume they can 'give us compliments' (cat calls), 'touch us' without our consent (a form of sexual assault), or 'have sex with us' because we 'were asking for it' (rape). My boundaries are clearly stated on my website. I don't offer anal play on me, ever. Yet quite frequently as a man is going down on me he will lick my asshole without asking me first, or try to stick a finger in my ass while we are doing 69. When I react badly, they say "oh, but your asshole looks so inviting" or "oh, I didn't realize that", or "but it looked like you were enjoying it." This has happened with clients who have amazing references sometimes. Guys simply don't realize that it is NOT OK to do this without asking first. Furthermore, sometimes, when I've reacted badly, they've actually tried to do it again. In the times that this has happened I have stopped the session and simply stated "if you continue doing this, even after I've said no multiple times, I want you to realize that what you're doing constitutes sexual assault." They lose their boner and go home feeling like I'm an angry feminist, and I don't give a fuck. Any sex worker can offer any service they'd like, as long as those services are negotiated in advance and consensual. Don't assume complacency is consent. On my website I say I don't offer anal play on me, but if I didn't stop the client they would continue, and this is still a violation of my boundaries and constitutes sexual assault. Not all sex workers feel comfortable saying no to clients because they fear reprisal, bad reviews, or an escalation in the assault (licking my asshole could turn into raping me, if I protest too loudly). Please seek out ENTHUSIASTIC consent from sex workers you meet. Never "test your luck" or assume you can do things without pre-negotiating first. Also, don't assume that all sex workers are good at negotiating consent face-to-face. Make ALL of your desires known BEFORE meeting with your sex worker of choice. It took me a long time to feel powerful enough to say 'no' to men who were doing things to me that made me feel uncomfortable. Women, in general, aren't taught how to do this. Keep that in mind.

You were the one saying "she was asking for it", no? That sort of attitude isn't worth a discussion, no matter how justified you think you are.. These women aren't just holes for you to fill, they're actual people.

"Backfired on you" like you didn't bother to obtain her consent first? When you go to the stripclub and get a private dance, do you also assume that you can put your mouth on her genitals because she has it at 2 inches of your face and that you have previously told her that you like to lick pussy? Does the fact that you have stated your preferences makes you entitled to them? You do realize that you just self-admitted to have committed a sexual assault, right?

It's really not so much about the woman "being pleased" as it is clients trying to get more services than they're paying for (you're paying for a massage afterall, not the intimacy of a GFE companion).. We really don't get into Sex Work solely so guys can try to give us orgasms you know, lol.

Someone can totally correct me if I'm wrong, but-- I'm pretty sure that's not your typical massage service and is something you'll probably have to look to an escort or fetish provider for.