lipualipua

@roamingguy : "Beating a dead horse". Are you likening our debate to the beating of a dead horse? I hope not as the outcome is far from decided.

@eagertopleaze: see, what you witnessed last week shows tht negotiation need not be such an emotionally-charged word. As I wrote in post #152 of this thread, every business is about optimization of financial returns. Shrewd business people not only know when to negotiate but also do so with prudence. Cheers.

@realnicehat : I thanked her for at least knowing what I am arguing about - something lost on most of the contributors. I thanked fortunateone because she answered a post of mine where my chief concern was the fact that Craig and I are not arguing about cases where the lady has clearly set her donation and she at least acknowledged what I was writing about. Where a donation has not been clearly set, the lady opens herself up to negotiation, which I insist need not be a dirty word.

@fortunateone: You wrote :" I think some have lumped you into being a negotiator because you keep referring to what you are doing as negotiation. It isn't. You are requesting a rate based on a scenario that the sp has not (for obvious reasons) listed on her ad, website, or if you call her out of the blue and explain what you are looking for. You are asking her to come up with a rate that covers your requirements, that are not already being offered, because it involves often travel, specific times and durations, that she doesn't account for in her service/rates options. I think that people are forgetting that, and some of your more confrontational replies aren't helping your case lol. You are not haggling, bargaining or negotiating. You are asking for a quote, and once you get a quote, are willing to pay it. These things are completely different." THANK YOU.

@Gegefatale : when insults come in, enlightenment goes out. Craig wrote something which you may have found offensive. If so let him know why he is wrong instead of throwing indirect insults his way. By the way, Craig and I are not arguing for negotiations where the lady has clearly stated her donations. Writing for me specifically, I am referring to out-of -ordinary encounters where the lady has no donation schedule precisely because (a) such encounters are few and (b) conditions under which they occur differ widely, making it impossible for ladies to have a set schedule of donations. This very important aspect of my position has been ignored by most contributors to this thread. I am very certain that ladies I have seen, both Cerbites and non-Cerbites know that I am not a neanderthal or a control freak. I just like debating ideas. Please read through post #152 of this thread to see my point of view. Regards.

@Phaedrus : You wrote : "I might ask the same of you, lipualipua. Go ahead. I'm all ears." My posts are there for all to read. I believe I have argued my point of view clearly. For example see post #152 of this thread.

@realnicehat : I hope next time your fingers won't get ahead of your brain!. If in my view someone is treating another unfairly, I just can't keep mute. It is not presumptuousness. If I am wrong in doing this so be it. Additional Comments: @Annessa : I sure am listening; in fact some have provided well-reasoned arguments.

@Gegefatale : please argue your case; no indirect insults. Additional Comments: @realnicehat : thank you. You see, insult and ridicule are the last refuge of those who can't argue their case.

@Annessa : sure the song is going on and on and I invite more people to join in for after all the more the merrier or in this case, the more we will all become acquainted with other's views; which can never be a bad thing. Regards.

@Cyclo : you wrote: ....."there doesn't SEEM to be much room for an sp to negotiate the quality and quantity of service while maintaining their service standards and hourly fee" (caps mine) So, do I take it that when the negotiations involve "lowly' parties, it is haggling but when it involves big-suited guys and girls with millions of dollars at stake, then they are true negotiations. I am not convinced in the least. Negotiating is negotiating is negotiating no matter the social status of those involved. Second, how do you know that value can't be created for both parties in an an escort-client negotiation. Remember, I stressed OPTIMUM in my earlier post. Additional Comments: @roamingguy: You wrote: ......"she didn't conduct a scientific study on negotiating nor claim to conduct a scientific study on negotiating" Exactly, and this is why I wrote that I wouldn't put faith in her conclusions.

@megforfun: You wrote: ...."only those who participate truly have a voice in said poll and therefor we can never truly know how the majority feels" You do have a point. We seldom know the real truth about any affair through polling. We can only approximate it and this is why statisticians use highly rigorous methods - the more rigorous the method, the closer the truth is approximated.

@roamingguy : You wrote :"Pretty presumptuous of you to chalk up the responses given as given because it is a open forum and respondents giving politically correct responses" Please don't take this personally. I was speaking ( or precisely) writing with lessons from Statistics 101 in mind. Thus though her conclusions are valid, they may not be accurate or correct.

@meaghanmcleod : You wrote :...... and trying to convince others why your answer is correct and the majority clearly state it is not correct, you will continue chasing your own tail." I wouldn't put much faith in the results you have presented on account of sample size and mode of data collection. My guess is that 54 is too small a number ( compared to total number of CERRBites and even of more significance, the responses are not secret. Some, both SPs and hobbyists, give the politically correct comments because this is an open forum.

@OttawaBoogieman: You wrote :"This makes perfect sense as there is some deviation beyond the norm" This is what I have been arguing all along.

@Roamingguy : you have missed my point entirely. Ladies do not normally have a set rate for encounters of the type I am talking about. They themselves ask that they be contacted for information. No lady will give you a "naked" figure outright. She will justify why she is demanding a certain donation. The instant she does this, the two of you are engaged in a negotiation - and you can (a) accept or (b) refuse, thank her for responding to your request and bid each other bye bye. Presumably, you told her the reason you are refusing go through with the encounter is that you find the donation too high. Now,this is where ladies will respond differently based on their own business models. Some will ignore you and "kick your ass to the curb" ( good for them).Others will ask how much you wish to give, opening a way to negotiating. Nothing wrong with this for her donation may have been objectively too high ( greed exists in all professions,) or she may seek optimization of financial returns. What is an optimum donation for Lady A may not be for Lady B. Bear in mind the key word - optimum. Optimum simply means the" most favorable conditions or level for GROWTH, or SUCCESS" and so I am not talking of ladies being taken advantage of. In business, it is all about optimization of financial returns and this often entails PRUDENT negotiations with various entities where appropriate. Escorting is no different.

@Emily Rushton: you wrote:" I never altered my rate and it was never a problem, so don't go telling these girls that they should change their donation to reflect the lower economic standing in a city, that is complete bullshit." First, no insults. Second, where did I write about "lower economic standing in a city"? Third, you clearly misunderstood my point - when I specifically ask a lady to drop all she is doing and come see me in Kingston from another city, negotiating is unavoidable. Additional Comments: It appears that the word "negotiate" elicits feelings of horror in some people. Negotiate need not be a "dirty" word. Let us consult Merriam-Webster for its definition: Definition of NEGOTIATE intransitive verb : to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter transitive verb : to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise <negotiate a treaty> Examples of NEGOTIATE 1. The customer wanted to negotiate over the price. 2. We negotiated a fair price. I have chosen those definitions and examples that are pertinent to our debate. Now, is there an inherent negativity residing in any of the definitions and examples given above? I must emphasise that I am talking of a situation where a lady in a city different from mine packs a certain anatomical feature that attracts me so powerfully that I can hardly contain myself(lol). I therefore respectfully ask her to drop everything she is doing and come see me in Kingston. Under such a condition, negotiating( in a TRUE sense of the word) is unavoidable.

@Al from Quebec: aaaaaaaaaah! did I congratulate you for nothing?(tease) I hope you do not want to imply that negotiating is NEVER okay? The reality is that for out-of-the-ordinary encounters,( like the one you wrote about or like my cases where I have invited ladies from Ottawa to come to Kingston) negotiating is a must. Why ? For the simple reason that ladies are aware that conditions for such encounters will be different and so do not post a schedule of donations for these. In most of the ads I have seen for invitation-to-travel encounters, ladies indicate that they may be contacted for information, saying nothing about donations. Regards.

@Shannoninwpg: you wrote :"If you are going to insult someone then make sure you are on the good side and don't mind a spank or 2 from the mod" I think you are not being fair to Craig. He has also been insulted so why point out only his?

@eagertoplease: You have a point here.

At times, a client may have such an intense desire to see a particular lady living in a different city that he cannot wait for the lady to tour his city, if the lady would do so at all. I live in Kingston and have on occasion been seized with intense desire (lol) to see a few ladies living in Ottawa. I have asked them to suggest a donation as they would be cancelling appointments they may have in Ottawa and travel to Kingston to see me. Fortunately for me ( and to the ladies' credit) they have each suggested donations that I found reasonable given the circumstances. Now, suppose a lady suggested a donation that I found too high, I think it wouldn't be in poor taste to negotiate as the encounter we are contemplating having is not the ordinary type ( client, escort in same city). Buttressing this viewpoint is that ladies do not normally have a schedule of donations for such encounters - something understandable as such "invitation- to- travel" encounters will each have its own circumstances.

White girl with booty? I will check CharlotteQ out soon. Cheers.

@Horndog66 :" You wrote :Are you seriously comparing this insignificant, tempest-in-a-teapot, little contretemps on a sex industry discussion board with Nazi Germany? This has gotten way out of hand." No I am not comparing it with Nazi Germany. Actually my quote is taken from Haile Selassie, talking about the Italian invasion of his country. He ended it by saying : It is us today; it will be you tomorrow. You may think of a wrong as insignificant until it affects you personally. I am not looking to cause a storm ; just to ask that we always act in a civil manner toward each other. It is not necessary to comment on every thread. If you don't have anything nice to say, please just stay mute.

I think it must be legalized but with stringent conditions to prevent abuse- such as children putting pressure on parents to undergo the process so as to gain an inheritance. I am certain it will be legalized by mid-century in many first-world countries. In the meantime those who have not had somebody dear to them afflicted with a terminal illness and undergoing severe pain must cease pontificating about the sanctity of life. I am reminded of the holy and pure and protector-of-life judge who, at sentencing, humiliated the late Dr. Kevorkian for having helped a terminally-ill patient take her life. I wonder what the judge would do were she or someone dear to her to face the same circumstances as the individual who turned to Kevorkian for help.

@ Jabba: you wrote:" Let me gently return to my point that ethics are a matter of perspective". Whose perspective? Friend, you advocate disaster for if, according to my ethics, deceiving people and defrauding them is right, who is to tell me that it is wrong and impose sanctions should I so act? You also wrote: "If an SP chooses to cast a net in a market designed for earnest singles & finds no takers, or they get banned - they will soon abandon the effort. The market will eventually even things out." Aaah, the market! the market!. The invisible hand of the market will weed out the impostors after these have destroyed some wretched hearts

@MP : "But yeah, fear can't be the most powerful motivator, or else soldiers would never go over that wall, we'd never go to that first job interview, or we'd never have asked that boy or girl out on a date." The fear of losing the battle will make soldiers go over that wall The fear of being automatically ruled out of a job will make us go to that first job interview The fear of losing out on a potential girl/boyfriend by not asking for a date will make us do so. Regards.