Phaedrus

Seen while stumbling around the Internet: As it turns out... that's Ottawa, Illinois :) But it made me smile.

This is probably cheating, since it's not a spoof of anything that I know it... and you've all seen it before... but it's funny, so I'm posting it again :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ36S3d1CaU

I get the impression than many porn-stars do escorting or cam-shows or other stuff on the side; as you say, they pay better. I'm even wondering if we're getting to the stage where porn will become more of a marketing avenue for people's other activities, rather than a revenue stream in its own right. After all, if you've got an AVN award or two you can probably hike your rates a fair bit :)

...but not half as surprised as the Invisible Man!

I don't think this is worth worrying about. I'm a very long way from being an expert on this, but I get the impression that there's not as much variation as some would have you believe, and that no matter how big (or small) you are the lady you're with has probably seen bigger (or smaller). In any case, she's sure as hell not going to say anything that you might not like if she's even remotely professional. Unless, of course, you request it...

And the race to the bottom continues. Pun intended :)

+lots on that. Yahoo is particularly bad for having a bad spam-reputation, if anyone has an account there. Or drop her a PM here... CERB's PM system seems pretty reliable.

Replying to a bunch of stuff from the last couple of days... You've stated your point of view, yes, but my question remains... Not a dirty word, perhaps (more on this below), but nevertheless a counterproductive one. Again: it's just not worth it. Right. And I'm arguing that any attempt to haggle is stupid and counter-productive in the long run, even if you do get lucky on occasion. Kinda like playing the lottery, but the odds are even worse. So, yes, I'm happy to concede that we all have the freedom to shoot ourselves in the foot if we feel so inclined. What I'm getting at, for the benefit of folks new to this (since this thread is in the "New To This" forum) is that shooting yourself in the foot is a really bad idea. And also, stupid. And yes, perhaps you do deserve to be ridiculed if you try it, having read this thread... Or ignorant of what they're missing out on, perhaps. May I suggest you go back and read cyclo's excellent post on the difference between haggling and negotiation? Although you keep talking about "negotiation", that seems inaccurate. What you advocate is haggling: you're trying to get a simple one-time discount, rather than there being any genuine give-and-take. Or if you disagree with that characterization of your position, perhaps you'd care to tell us: when you ask for a discount on a SP's rate, what do you offer in exchange? If you truly negotiate, you won't find that question hard to answer - and I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd be interested to know what that answer is. And while you may not think "negotiation" may not be a dirty word... can you say the same of "haggling"? Two things to say to this. First: if they began haggling, that's their right. It doesn't mean it's a good tactic for you to do so if they don't. Second: as I've asked previously, do you really think you got the same service for your reduced rate? If you do, please explain why... It's not that anyone wants to... it's just that some of us consider some ladies to be worth the effort. If you're that desperate, I suspect a lady with six pages of etiquette guidelines is unlikely to take last-minute appointments and you'd be better off calling someone else :) Still, I may be wrong... True, but I think most SPs would not be flattered by the comparison to McDonalds. But if you're OK with it... you said it, not me. I think you're dead right on this... and really, that's the audience most of us are aiming at. We all know this debate is utterly dead to anyone who's likely to join one side of the other. The prize here is the influence on the silent masses; alas, none of us will ever know whether or not we've won it. A word to those people: if you never post, you will never persuade anyone of your point of view, and things will never change. Obvious, yes, but perhaps it needs saying... But as I said earlier, this is no longer about them. It's about the audience, who are largely silent. My motivation here is simply to get them to think about the pros and cons of haggling before they try it. My thoughts on that are that the odds are so far against you that trying it is simply stupid, and I'm really looking for someone - anyone - to provide some sort of counter to that. Nobody has, yet. Two things here. First, there are some ladies who are clearly sick to death of being haggled with. You may not be there, but I get the feeling others are... and that this thread was borne of exasperation rather than anything else. Secondly, there are quite a few of people who feel that the wannabe hagglers should be shot down. Some of those are the ladies who are sick of it; some of the others are guys who don't really like seeing the ladies who may be friends having to put up with that crap. I suspect you benefit from this, even if you don't wish to read it. Or go ahead and argue the toss, if the mood takes you. That, too, is the Internet. Now this, my friends, is a man who understands how the Internet works :) Unless, of course, your tastes run that way. And remember, too, that this is a circle-jerk with an audience :)

I find it useful. And fun. It's a great way of staying in touch with people without consuming any more of their time than they want to give.

Wow. I never realized an eighth of an inch on your ball size could mess up your day that badly! :)

Why on earth would you do that? I see no reason for it.

Do you honestly believe you've convinced anyone of anything? Most people understand that attempts to haggle with SPs don't generally go down well. I'll grant that you've managed to get one or two like-minded individuals to crawl out of the woodwork, but that seems to be the limit of your accomplishments thus far. If you believe you're winning, tell me... whose mind have you changed? I asked a couple of days ago for someone to explain how attempts to haggle could possibly work out in a client's favour, in the long run. Nobody has responded. I was hoping you might, since you seem so sold on the idea... but thus far I have been disappointed (although not, I must admit, surprised). So, another chance. Care to make an attempt this time? Nope. You have debunked nothing, convinced nobody, achieved nothing save (probably) getting yourself on a few ladies' blacklists. I might ask the same of you, lipualipua. Go ahead. I'm all ears. Just to save you both clicking and scrolling, here's my original questions. You've already had all weekend to think about them. You can have as much longer as you like. But the longer you wait, and the more you fail to come up with any sort of coherent argument, the less likely you are to convince anyone.

Absolutely. If I sent you an unsolicited mail telling you what a great time I'd had at a brothel, that would be... dodgy. But if you log into a site of your own accord and read a reco I wrote - having bothered to set up an account, without which you can't see the reco at all - then I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear. IANAL, but I'm okay with taking the risk on this one :)

Offered without comment...

So, I have a question for those who believe it's OK to negotiate SPs' rates, or believe that at least there's no harm trying. Let's think for a moment about what the result of your attempt to negotiate could be. You may get instantly blacklisted by the SP, either privately or more widely (they do talk, you know). You may get ignored by the SP. You may get told, "No," and see her at her posted rate, having given her reason to resent you. You probably aren't getting all those YMMV things. You may successfully negotiate a discount, see the SP, and get reduced service (perhaps CBJ instead of BBBJ, or she'll watch the clock like a hawk). You may successfully negotiate a discount and tick all the boxes on the menu, but do so with a SP who resents being short-changed and who probably won't give you a top-notch experience as a result. And again, don't even think about the YMMV stuff. Note that I simply don't believe you'll ever get exactly the same service for a lower rate as you would have done if you hadn't negotiated; the omission of that option was not accidental. My question is: even if you could guarantee the final result, which is probably the best you can possibly expect, is it worth it in return for the few dollars you've saved? If so, why? And even if you answered "yes" to that: given the significant chances of one of the less desirable results... do you still consider it worth asking her to give you a discount? And again, if so, why? I'm afraid I simply don't see how asking for discounts from SPs could possibly work out to my advantage in the long run, so I'd be grateful if someone could explain how it works.

Short answer: because they have a gazillion better things to be doing than going after consenting adults who aren't causing any problems for anyone else. If you're interested in this stuff, head over to the "Legal Discussions" forum and look at the threads on the Bedford case. If things go well, all this could be legal before too long...

If you've visited the indy MAs, you'll probably find the SPs' incalls are much the same. I think most of the well-reviewed ladies who offer incalls have either a nice place of their own, or are in a hotel room if they're just visiting town. I've never visited any incall I'd advise you to steer clear of. Mind you, I haven't visited them all...