Truth Requirement for Pick-up Lines

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

Jo Adetunji and Harriet Sherwood report from Israel for The Guardian, 21 Jul 2010:

An Israeli man of Arab origin has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

 

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.

 

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

 

Although Kashur was initially charged with rape and indecent assault, this was changed to a charge of rape by deception as part of a plea bargain arrangement.

 

Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.

 

The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.

Full story:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew

[Cato 160314]

What an appalling story! Is it rape if you lie about your age?

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

Could be, Cato:

High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."

 

Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.

 

In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

 

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.

 

Elkana Laist of the Public Defender's Office yesterday said the Jerusalem District Court had gone too far in its application of the approach of the High Court, "opening the door to a rape conviction every time a person lies regarding details of his identity. Every time the court thinks a reasonable woman would not have had sex with a man based on that representation, the man will be charged with rape. That approach is not accepted around the world either."

 

Laist also said the court's verdict was paternalistic toward women.

"The test the court adopted is problematic, because it means that every time a man tells a woman he loves her, based on which she sleeps with him, he could be convicted of rape."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Not sure but I think there should be a clear distinction between rape (forced sex) and deception. This is a case of deception. As bad as it is, it is not rape. There should be a different term and sentence had the guy kidnapped the lady by force and taken her to a remote area and had raped her and this case lol. They can not be both rape but in a likely racist society it may be regarded as bad!!. Can't help wondering if a Jewish guy had pretended to be an arab and picked up an arab girl for sex and relationship if the jewish citizen would have been charged with rape and sentenced to jail by an Israeli court lol??. I am NOT taking sides here just trying to be fair and putting everything in perspective.

 

What if a guy says he is wealthy or an important guy and deceives a lady he picks up in a bar into having sex or buys the lady many drinks purposely and takes her home. Are these cases also rape? Though I do agree drugging a girl (without her knowing) and having sex also is rightfully rape (because it is not consensual sex) but lying is deception and non-conceptual or forced sex is rape.

[Kate von Katz 49953]

Bearing in mind the customs, beliefs and laws (which are heavily influenced by religion in some areas of the world) of the location this occured, they made a case within the lawful boundaries of their judicial system. Of course something like this wouldn't happen here, only because our customs, culture and reflective laws are different. Don't westernize something that is not western.

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[Cato 160314]

I wouldn't push cultural relativism quite so far, lindsay. Otherwise don't you think you'll risk winding up justifying things like stonings of adulterers (and especially adultresses), etc.?

[Carrie Moon 68826]

How about getting to know someone better before having sex if you care so much about who they are supposed to be when considering them for a serious relationship?

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Excellent point Cato. Stoning adulterers/adultresses is barbarism and there is no justification for that and the overwhelming majority of the citizens in that society are strongly against that and many ashame of it. Another unjustifiable act is honor killing or execution of people with different sexual orientation. Pure and simple it is barbarism not culture and that includes bad treatment of female population denying them of their basic human rights.

 

Racism or race-related unfair sentences too is not justifiable and if it is a culture, then it needs to be looked at and changed like it did in Zimbabwe and South Africa.

[etasman2000 15994]

The Guardian has an interview with the Arab Israeli in question. He is appealing the conviction.

[Kate von Katz 49953]

Human rights violations are not something I condone. However I am sensitive to lesser things like the case in point. There are times when customs must be respected (as in this case) and times when someone needs to be thrown in jail for human rights violations/abuse.

 

And I agree whole-heartedly with Carrie: get to know people before sleeping with them! Especially in a place where there is deep unrest between sects, religions, etc.

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[Cato 160314]

Hi Lindsay. I'm curious why you think customs must be respected in this case, please?

[Guest s******ecan****]

This story is more about the "aparthied" tranformation that is taking place in Isreali sociey than about sex crimes. Would a successful rape conviction have occurred if the man had lied about being a billionaire? What if he simply lied about being married? The court wants to pretend that there must be no deception when in fact the only deception that matters is whether or not the man was "racially pure". Its sad and disgusting to see what Isreal has become.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

It can be equally argued that stoning to death, honour killing or forced or unfair treatment of female population or execution of innocence can also be customs by some governments around the world and condeming it may be regarded as interference in their customs or affairs. These human right violators use it as a weapon to continue to supress their population and we should all unanimously condemn these barbaric acts. I agree that may be race-related wrongdoings ("aparthied" ) such as this case may not be as bad as stoning to death but if we agree it is a bad thing (which I hope we all agree), then we should condemn it regardless and do not speak the same language as human rights violators are using that is to justify it saying that it is culture or custom and no one has the right to criticise their evil acts.

 

Human right violation will soon come to an end as democracy seeking nations are fighting back hard to earn their well deserved overdue freedom and independence. Lets support them in their asperations rather than codoning the evil acts of their suppressors. I have no tolerance and do not compromise on human rights isues and feminist issues for for so called relatively less severe violation of these rights. My thought on this.

[Kate von Katz 49953]

You pretty much summed it up, SA. Human rights violations trump culture. If there are no human right being violated, then the local government has the right to handle the case within the contraints of their judicial system.

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[Guest s******ecan****]

Human rights violations are not something I condone. However I am sensitive to lesser things like the case in point. There are times when customs must be respected (as in this case) and times when someone needs to be thrown in jail for human rights violations/abuse.

 

And I agree whole-heartedly with Carrie: get to know people before sleeping with them! Especially in a place where there is deep unrest between sects, religions, etc.

Posted via Mobile Device

 

Not sure how being convicted of rape and sent to prison could be considered a "lesser thing" than a human rights violation. The man is basically being sent to prison for being Arabic. If he had lied about being rich, married, divorced, etc no case would have been brought before the courts.

 

It is not a western tradition to condone customs that violate human rights. When the British ruled India they ended the thousand year tradition of burning alive the widows of recently deceased men. (these killings continue but they are still illegal in independent India)

 

The British govenor at the time was told by the Indians that this was their custom and it should be respected. His reply..

 

"We too have a custom. When a man murders a woman by burning her alive we build a gallows and put him to death."

 

Some "customs" are simply not worthy of respect and must be denounced and confronted.

[Kate von Katz 49953]

We don't have to agree with the customs and laws of other places, but when there are no human rights violations there is little we can do. Stoning, so-called "honor" killing, etc., are human rights. Things like a guy not proclaming his religion are cultural. Like it or no, there is a difference in these matters.

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[Capital Hunter 18263]

I am not sure how I summed it up:confused:. Aparthied is a human right violation. I said may be relatively not as evil as stoning to death but never even hinted that it should be acceptable act!!!!

[Kate von Katz 49953]

And what can we do about it? If you are concerned, notify your UN rep. But when it comes time to "domestic" affairs in other nations (domesting implying those that do not fall under international human rights), there truly is little we can do. It's the way the world works, my dear.

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[Capital Hunter 18263]

We are a citizen of this world and we do our share to fight injustice my darling. If people like Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela had given up then yes black people would have been still jailed or even hanged for having a relationship with a white woman. Yes writing to your MPs for action or promoting human rights issues actively is a good start but an individual's choice and I have no right to ask it of you. But I guess what I am asking is, not to condone aparthied or consider it as culture and worse respect it!!!, which is a clear case of human right violation. Btw, I think this is not a case of one individual not only proclaiming its religion but also not proclaiming his race.

 

And no this is not how the world works. We can changed it and have done so in the past. Aparthied has come to an end in many countries. Executions and stonings have been reversed and many political prisoners have been freed or spared executions as a result of international pressure and many evil regimes have been brought down in the past 50 years alone as a result of sanctions and political pressure. Yes we can change unjust so called domestic violations. By the way overwhelming majority of the citizens of those countries are fighting hard to earn their rights and ahead of all of them are the lion hearted women spearheading the feminist movement in a certain regions of the world against evil backward deadly regimes. They deserve our support.

 

Another easy way to do our share is:

Spare a dollar a day to save a life away.

And there are many charitable organizations where you can donate the cup of coffee price to save or change lives overseas.

[Cato 160314]

My comments weren't meant as a wholesale condemnation of any state or directed specifically against racism, but were intended to be about the relation between customs and law. (The Israeli Haaretz reporter interviewed on CBC this week did make a racism charge, though, against his countrymen about this case.) For me, any custom (of any culture) that can't be justified rationally (on the basis that we're all equal), has no validity, and shouldn't be respected. It certainly shouldn't be legally enforced. I think that's the case here. A rape charge is rationally invalid in these circumstances. What can we do about it? Not much directly, I agree, but it's still wrong. Wrong morally, and wrong from the point of view of impartial legal justice.

Just on the subject of custom, I also oppose the veiling of women as anti-egalitarian, but I don't want to get into that here.

[Guest s******ecan****]

And what can we do about it? If you are concerned, notify your UN rep. But when it comes time to "domestic" affairs in other nations (domesting implying those that do not fall under international human rights), there truly is little we can do. It's the way the world works, my dear.

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Well we are already involved. The Harper Government has been one of Isreal's strongest supporters in its Aparthied transformation. Rather than calling your UN rep I'd suggest talking to your MP.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I think that veiling of women if carried out by force (as is the case with some societies) is much more than anti-egalitarian. It is a clear case of violation of human rights of the worst kind when half the population is suppressed and denied of their basic rights. Feminist movements in those regions are gaining momentum in some recently suppressed societies, however, I don't want to get into that either.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

Lindsay - What do you think the women and men of Israel would say? That's it's rape or that it's not? I don't just mean a certain individual or a court, I mean the people?

[Suzirider 737]

Sofar I read that Sabbar is an Arab. Arab what ? Muslim ?

I believe there was deception on her part also, and toss the case. Was She looking for a "serious romantic relationship" ? , I doubt it. She was just as randy as he was. (we just met and I'm a serious romantic too, so lets get it on, Now, and cement our relationship) :roll: Then the shame of giving it to an "Arab" kicks in.

Rape no way, Fraud on both parties, case dismissed.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

Ryna McCartney reports for msnbc.com, 27 Jul 2010:

Could a similar prosecution take place ... in the Unites States? And if so, just what would constitute rape by deception?

 

Legal experts say those who lie in the course of courtship are unlikely to face jail time ? most U.S. states don't have rape by fraud laws, and even in those that do, prosecutions are extremely rare.

 

But in recent years, there have been attempts to broaden rape laws in order to deal with this complicated and controversial issue.

 

In 2008,

Mass

. State House Rep. Peter Koutoujian helped craft rape by fraud legislation ... the legislation has yet to pass. It is simply not a top priority for lawmakers right now, he said ....

 

Several other states ? including California, Tennessee, Alabama and Michigan ? have forms of rape by fraud or rape by coercion laws

, but prosecutions are rare ...

 

... defining fraud in equal relationships is ... difficult, said Patricia Falk, a professor at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law who has written extensively on the subject.

 

?What?s the difference between ?I will love you forever and we?re going to get married? and ?I am LeBron James??? Falk asked. ?What constitutes romantic inducements and things that are fraudulent enough for the law to take recognition of??

 

Full story:

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38430181/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/