Stars and Bars

[bcguy42 38594]

It is with some amusement that I watch the debate taking place in the US regarding the "Confederate Flag".

 

The part I find amusing is watching the verbal and logical gymnastics performed by those who support the public display. They say it has to do with history, with heritage, that it is part of the culture.

 

Yet, so far as I know, unless they've changed history, the flag in question is actually a Virginia battle flag, not a flag of the Confederate States of America.

 

The flag was (is) a rallying cry to treason - declaring war against the USA is one of the basic definitions of treason.

 

The flag was (is) flown proudly by members of one race seeking to terrorize and murder members of another race.

 

Seriously? That's a history and culture to instill pride?

 

The same arguments used to support the Red Rag are the same ones used to justify the display of Nazi emblems - history, heritage, culture.

 

IMHO, both sets of emblems should be relegated to museums.

 

One other thing.... I was startled the first time I saw a "Confederate Flag" here in Canada. I wondered then and I wonder now if the owner understood what they were displaying.

[50 Shades Raven 31380]

There is a lot of controversy over this matter.

 

bcguy42 is correct, it is a Virginia battle flag, not the stars and bars (which was actually the first national flag), but it was also the battle flag of the army of Tennessee during the civil war.

 

The symbol itself has a lot of standing in the U.S. It is part of the state flag of Mississippi, state seal for Texas, Alabama coat of arms, and 9 states have it on their license plates. Until 2001, it was part of the Georgia state flag.

 

As a southern woman, I do have it flying at my home, along with my state flag and the national flag.

 

I do not, personally, see it as a symbol of hatred or oppression. I see it as a part of history when one country fought against itself in an attempt to survive the union of the states, or stand together in independence.

 

It started with 7 states, grew to 13, but as we all know, there are now the United states.

 

Southerners like myself fly the flag in remembrance of what caused the civil war. It has great meaning to me, and yes, I fly the flag.

If people see that as a symbol of hatred, then they do not know me very well.

 

I feel terrible that people view this as a symbol of hatred, as that is not what it stands for.

The fact that some people have decided to use this flag as a symbol of hatred, should not reflect on the history of the flag whatsoever.

The deaths that have been caused by people 'using' this flag in the wrong conjecture is really awful. The recent deaths tore at me, things like this should never happen, especially in this day and age.

 

How would people feel if their own flag was used by a select group of people that were running rampage on the world by causing severe problems, hatred and killing?

Oh, wait a minute, that was Hitler, who adopted the swastika (a symbol meaning lucky or auspicious object, in eastern Asia) and used it to try to take over the world!

 

Not everyone feels the same way about this flag. It is a controversy that can be seen from both sides.

 

Just an opinion from a true southern woman.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Nicely stated, Raven. Just be careful with controversial topics. It's a minefield of sensitivity out there.

[waterat 20911]

Southerners like myself fly the flag in remembrance of what caused the civil war.

 

I'm as ignorant about history as the next person so I did an academic analysis and review of the causes of the American civil war; i.e. a google search.... and most of the hits identified slavery. This quote came up multiple times in the list:

 

"While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries."

 

I believe the vast majority of folks would identify slavery as a root cause. I don't believe the Confederate flag should be forgotten (let's not repeat history) but should be relegated to museum status. It has no place flying over a state legislature.

 

There are no Germans, other than a handful of neo-nazi whack jobs, flying the Swastika which Hitler happened to purloin from the Buddhists.

[conquistador 18487]

 

I believe the vast majority of folks would identify slavery as a root cause. I don't believe the Confederate flag should be forgotten (let's not repeat history) but should be relegated to museum status. It has no place flying over a state legislature.

 

This...

 

It's an old identity that needs to be put in a museum. Does not belong in modern day culture.

 

It's funny how Nikki Haley not long ago was endorsing this flag, and now is trumpeting in removing it.

 

The flag needs to go, at least from a state building or state flag.... But if you want it on your front porch or license plate, go ahead... Free speech and all.

 

Cheers.

[MightyPen 67414]

Yeah, it's kind of hard to separate the Confederate flag from racism, since at its heart the Confederacy was first and foremost about racism, particularly slavery. There's an interesting overview of that history HERE.

 

I understand that some people can honestly perceive that flag as a more general and positive symbol of pride for the American South, without having any racism in their minds. There's nothing wrong with THAT; there's plenty to be proud of from that region. But it misses the point that the very same flag means something else to others.

 

Fact is, we now know of one murderous dude (let's not say his name) who most certainly perceived, and flew, that flag as an explicit symbol of white supremacy. And lots and lots of other people perceive it as that, and rally around it for that reason.

 

It reminds me of that joke about Fox News: "No, no, totally not racist... but #1 with racists!"

 

Hey, the swastika itself had been around for thousands of years with positive connotations before it was sadly appropriated for an mad, ugly, racist cause. Too bad that ruined it for everyone who liked the symbol for those other reasons... but it did.

[oldblueeyez 15475]

Now don't go tellin' me that the General Lee would be the General Lee without the good ole confederate flag...why, that'd be like little Miss Daisy Duke without her cut-off denims...Uncle Jesse without his still...Boss Hog without his cigar...

 

 

One other thing.... I was startled the first time I saw a "Confederate Flag" here in Canada. I wondered then and I wonder now if the owner understood what they were displaying.

 

Startled? Ha ha, why? It's the international symbol for "hillbilly"! Get out of the city much? lol

[bcguy42 38594]

Startled? Ha ha, why? It's the international symbol for "hillbilly"! Get out of the city much? lol

 

Oh, I get out of the city a lot. No, it startled me back when I came to Canada some 30 years ago. Back before I knew there were Canadian hillbilly folk.

 

But that goes to my original thought. The flag isn't really some quaint folksy funny thing. It is a battle standard utilized by a treasonous pseudo-government established to preserve the State's right to continue an economy based on slavery and to preserve the idea that the white race was superior to all others.

 

Long way from there to Daisy Duke's.

 

I agree with the earlier statement that one should revere the flag in your own home if one wants but the government, both State and Federal, should not display it.

[Phaedrus 209521]

It is with some amusement that I watch the debate taking place in the US regarding the "Confederate Flag".

 

The part I find amusing is watching the verbal and logical gymnastics performed by those who support the public display. They say it has to do with history, with heritage, that it is part of the culture.

 

I'm with you on the amusement. I must admit, what always entertains me is when the same people who are defending that flag then go on to proudly point out that Lincoln was a Republican and the leadership of the Southern states was mostly Democrat. Seriously, guys, make up your mind which side you support...

 

Southerners like myself fly the flag in remembrance of what caused the civil war. It has great meaning to me, and yes, I fly the flag.

 

So are you flying it because slavery is particularly meaningful to you and you want to remember it?

 

Or do you consider the cause of the Civil War to be something else? If so, what?

 

If people see that as a symbol of hatred, then they do not know me very well.

 

...and probably never will, but that's a risk you take. Unfortunately we humans do a lot of judging people by appearances, no matter how much we might wish it were otherwise. We all do it, and we all have to live with it.

 

I feel terrible that people view this as a symbol of hatred, as that is not what it stands for.

 

So what does it mean to you, in a word (or two, or three)? What would you put up against "slavery"?

[50 Shades Raven 31380]

 

So are you flying it because slavery is particularly meaningful to you and you want to remember it?

I fly the flag because I choose to. It was not a 'flag for slavery', to me it is a flag from battle. Hence the reason it is called a battle flag.

 

 

 

 

So what does it mean to you, in a word (or two, or three)? What would you put up against "slavery"?

 

A fight for independence! After all, it's what we fought the British for, independence from their clutches.

 

I'm not getting into a 'word war' over this matter. I fly the Canadian flag also at my home, some people in my town take great offence to it because of 1812, but that is their problem. I fly all the flags proudly.

[oldblueeyez 15475]

Long way from there to Daisy Duke's.

 

Now looky here, it's a cryin' shame to see what the law's done to the good ole boys....

 

Dukes of Hazzard Star John Schneider Slams TV Land for Pulling Reruns Over Confederate Flag

[Dunstan Ramsay 1882]

Dukes of Hazzard Star John Schneider Slams TV Land for Pulling Reruns Over Confederate Flag

 

John Schneider is upset only because he won't be receiving any residual income from the reruns.

[Guest jake_cdn]

I think that concentration on the Star and Bars comes primarily from the idea that the South is not dead. True the confederate army united under the adopted flag but the issue is really no different than in Texas.

 

Texas fought the civil war under the flag of the Republic of Texas and there are those that are still trying to have the state succeed from the Union. In fact, there are people who believe that Texas has the right to secede based on the belief that that the Republican Guarantee Clause indicates that the federal government has no right to keep a state from leaving the union as long as it maintains a republican form of government.

 

Today the Texas Nationalist Movement is alive and well and has seen growth in support since the 1990's. I have seen bumper stickers with "secede" clearly displayed and some tourist areas are starting to promote their state as "Texas. It's Like a Whole Other Country" . There are also locations that fly the state flag at the same height as the Stars and Stripes or they chose to flag the Republic of Texas flag only.

 

I understand the rationalization behind banning the Stars and Bars and I agree but what about flags that other Confederate states display and use to promote their independence and their pre-civil war beliefs and their rights for an independent republic.

 

It is a slippery slope but let's not think that the removal of the Stars and Bars will solve the issues in the Confederate states. There are people who still believe the South is alive and well. It is NOT the flag that incites people the problems are routed deeper in the Southern culture.

 

I know that this is not a suggestion towards a solution but it is simply an observation of the issue around the Confederate flags removal.

[50 Shades Raven 31380]

Today the Texas Nationalist Movement is alive and well and has seen growth in support since the 1990's. I have seen bumper stickers with "secede" clearly displayed and some tourist areas are starting to promote their state as "Texas. It's Like a Whole Other Country" . There are also locations that fly the state flag at the same height as the Stars and Stripes or they chose to flag the Republic of Texas flag only.

 

 

The rumour that Texas is the only state that is allowed to fly the state flag at the same height as the national flag is actually false.

 

When Texas joined the Union in 1845 it supposedly negotiated special provision, but the Flag Code for the U.S. states that ANY state flag can be flown at the same height as the National flag. The National flag should be on the right of the state flag if flying on two poles, and National flag on top if flown on the same pole.

[oldblueeyez 15475]

Texas Wants Its Gold Back Inside The State's Borders

 

 

and egad, blasphemy:

 

 

Confederate flag: Bubba Watson to paint over Dukes of Hazzard car

[Guest s******ecan****]

All I can say is "what took you so long".

 

Astonishing that a symbol of hate and treason was ever allowed to become so commonplace in the first place.

 

Make no mistake the civil war was about slavery. All one needs to do is to read the proclamation by the state of South Carolina outlining why they had decided on secession.

 

Money quote

 

"... increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of Slavery ...