MP Bids to Make Buying Sex Illegal in Canada

[VedaSloan 119179]

What really pisses me off is that all of this is pushed under the umbrella of "human trafficking" and hello, shit-tons of people are trafficked for lots of things OTHER THAN PROSTITUTION.

 

Not to mention, these people pushing these bills have probably never even met a sex worker, let alone knowing what might be beneficial to us (not that they care).

 

And people wonder why I'm not afraid of my clients. It's policy and lawmakers, academics and others who think they know what is best for me that scare the shit out of me.

[Doc Odd 103]

I am fond of this blog for keeping track of trafficking issues:

 

http://www.lauraagustin.com/

[Guest s******ecan****]

What really pisses me off is that all of this is pushed under the umbrella of "human trafficking" and hello, shit-tons of people are trafficked for lots of things OTHER THAN PROSTITUTION.

 

Not to mention, these people pushing these bills have probably never even met a sex worker, let alone knowing what might be beneficial to us (not that they care).

 

And people wonder why I'm not afraid of my clients. It's policy and lawmakers, academics and others who think they know what is best for me that scare the shit out of me.

 

Yep. "human trafficking" is the new war on drugs. The whole CL thing was done under the guise of human trafficking. Conservative groups have learned they can't successfully push moral issues without disguising them.

Like the war on drugs these laws will only push the activity underground and give more power to the pimps and real trafficers.

[Doc Odd 103]

Yep. "human trafficking" is the new war on drugs. The whole CL thing was done under the guise of human trafficking. Conservative groups have learned they can't successfully push moral issues without disguising them.

Like the war on drugs these laws will only push the activity underground and give more power to the pimps and real trafficers.

 

It's not a new tactic. The efforts which originally made prostitution illegal in most of the U.S. a century ago were fueled by panics over "white slavery," the trafficking of the time.

[VedaSloan 119179]

It's not a new tactic. The efforts which originally made prostitution illegal in most of the U.S. a century ago were fueled by panics over "white slavery," the trafficking of the time.

 

 

Yes and now the dichotomy between forced vs voluntary prostitution, in cases of trafficking, is being used to imply innocence vs guilty. In many cases, women who are trafficked know they are going to be prostitutes, but they did not expect to be debt-bonded slaves etc. The onus becomes proving the so-called "innocence" of the victim, ie whether or not she knew she was going to be a prostitute, rather than fighting all instances of human rights violations, regardless of "innocence."

 

I just wrote a paper last year about this.

[Suzirider 737]

Child porn in the library, but outlaw sex for money. Really ?

Hey , Conservatives, Canada should follow the Swedish model, right?, they must have done some long hard thinking on this subject :shock:

 

http://www.thelocal.se/17058/20090121/

http://www.thelocal.se/29004/20100915/

[Capital Hunter 18263]

You know, I am tired of some (religious) people trying to impose their moral standards and beliefs upon others. They think they are right no matter what because they represent God or whatever and have the right to do so!!!.

 

I mean I do agree that something should be done to combat violence against sex workers, underage prostitution, pimps, human traffickers but six month jail sentence against those who see those escorts who willingly would like to have a date and likely have a good time too as much as their clients in a socially progressive country is totally unbelievable, unacceptable and I go as far as saying disgusting to completely ruin a citizen's life (six month jail, disgraced among family and friends and since it will be criminal, then losing prospects of job at present or future) for dating a consenting adult is both ridiculous and stupid and more so when it is in a socially progressive land.

 

Btw, I googled "escort Sweden" and I came across so many escorts advertising in sweden. They likely pushed down the demand but doubt it they can eliminate it ever. Not even in those (backward) countries where prostitution is dealt with very harshly, it exits but since it is a serious crime, it exists in the dark sense (not voluntary and may be even not between consenting adults and drugs and violence often involves).

[etasman2000 15994]

You know, I am tired of some (religious) people trying to impose their moral standards and beliefs upon others.

 

Yet we are willing to accept the benefits of it, e.g. the six day work week is a very Jewish belief.

 

It's a matter of adopting the structure and not the trappings.

 

Btw, I googled "escort Sweden" and I came across so many escorts advertising in sweden.

 

The stinker is it is legal to sell sex and illegal to buy sell. Clients are prosecuted while escorts are given social aid to better their lives.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

It's a matter of adopting the structure and not the trappings.

 

The stinker is it is legal to sell sex and illegal to buy sell. Clients are prosecuted while escorts are given social aid to better their lives.

 

The structure can be adopted by whoever wishes to adopt. My point, It must not be pushed down our throats.

Well, if there are no buyers out there (if no demand) then why there are so many sellers (supply)?. Certainly it is not a matter of all those ladies paying for ads but not receiving the cash benefits!!!.

[Newton 714]

The Swedish model is a slippery slope. Not because it may lead to being introduced in Canada or complete crimalization of sex work. It might. But it corrupts one of the fundamental values of a liberal democracy - that is, reason. One can sell a service but it's a crime to buy it. It's beyond common sense. It corrupts reason. The moralistic right and puritanical left are strange bedfellows but often find common cause in sexual politics. Their instrumental tactics reveal a distrust in our well-functioning democracy and reasoned citizenry. The left may feel a sense of accomplishment in spite of its abandonment of reason which is in fact a progressive value. It wouldn't end well because corrupting reason is never good.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

So which MP exactly is it trying to make buying sex illegal?

 

Bethany? imkrissy? CMJ? Michelle_MA?

[Old Dog 179138]

So which MP exactly is it trying to make buying sex illegal?

 

Bethany? imkrissy? CMJ? Michelle_MA?

 

 

Touche!!!!!!!! Megan Touche. Hell, you form a party and I would vote for ya.

[Guest s******ecan****]

But it corrupts one of the fundamental values of a liberal democracy - that is, reason. One can sell a service but it's a crime to buy it. It's beyond common sense. It corrupts reason.

 

 

Actually it is perfectly reasonable in a Machiavellian sense. The law is intended to make prostitution illegal. By making the John the criminal both left and right are satisfied. Right because prostitution is made illegal, left because prostitution is made illegal and women are enshrined as the victims confirming their long held bias about the sex trade.

 

As well by making the buying illegal the police are then able to easily conduct "sting" operations by posing as the seller. Since selling is not illegal (and presumably neither is soliciting) the police could presumably never be accussed of entraptment (a persistent problem in US prosecutions for both drug and prostitution stings).

 

Its not so much unreasonable as unethical.....who knew those Swedes could be so diabolical.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Yes undercover police operation will become one problem and the con artists posing as prostitutes to empty your wallets is another. It will destroy lives and families and will make our land a police state comparable to most backward regimes in middle east. It will push many thousands of ladies into poverty and forced to live off social and welfare programs. Yes it has many benefits too (it will cut down on prostitution (both forced and voluntary), pimpimg and human trafficking) but the negative aspects of this law by far outweights the positive.

 

And what will be the definition of selling sex. Some would consider even touching or kissing sexual act too. So will they shut down strip bars too? or stop contact dancing in SCs. So how all those many thousands of nude dancers are going to make ends meat. start collecting welfare? This is kind of failure on the part of the successive governments unable to address the problems associated with prostitution (human trafficking, force prostitution, pimping ..) in the past and therefore now their only solution to cut off the head entirely in order to get rid off the century old headache lol.

[Suzirider 737]

http://www.joysmith.ca/news.asp?newsID=537

 

Note Recommendation X1

 

http://www.joysmith.ca/assets/final%20-%20proposal%20for%20a%20national%20action%20plan%20to%20combat%20human%20trafficking%20-%20sept%202010.pdf

[Guest s******ecan****]

So will they shut down strip bars too?

 

You could still have strip bars since selling sex is legal but all customers would have to be arrested as soon as they paid the cover charge since its not legal to buy sex.

 

Eventually a large percentage of the Sweedish male population would be arrested....perhaps that is the purpose of the law....a stimulus program for correctional officers?;)

 

Sperm donor clinics could also fall into this grey area.:shock:

[Newton 714]

Actually it is perfectly reasonable in a Machiavellian sense.

...

 

Its not so much unreasonable as unethical.....who knew those Swedes could be so diabolical.

 

Machiavelli is no democrat - small d. And I don't recall Sweden made any significant contribution to the development of a liberal democratic tradition. But they seem to be the first to screw it up, no pun intented.

[Loralee Reach 245]

The Swedish model is ridiculous....

Is is Buying sex? or, Selling sex?

The reality, all over the world as a well traveled person knows, is that either Buying or Selling is around the globe an activity practiced by women and men in whatever sex category they fit.

My opinion is that keeping the trade illegal is only calling for more trade.

Nevertheless the sex with minors is a criminal, immoral and amoral activity and those who practice it should be jailed or worst.

Sex is the ruler of the world and it will never ever be different.....enjoy it!!!!

LoraLee

[Capital Hunter 18263]

You could still have strip bars since selling sex is legal but all customers would have to be arrested as soon as they paid the cover charge since its not legal to buy sex.

 

Apparently there are still a few strip bars open in Sweden but but the strippers are not allowed to take off their bikinis lol:shock:. I wonder why should anyone pay to go to these strip bars when they can go to the beach and watch ladies in bikinis for free!!!. May be strip bars are for winter time!!!. What a backward country sweden has become. My impression of that country has changed completely over that past few weeks lol.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

I wonder why should anyone pay to go to these strip bars when they can go to the beach and watch ladies in bikinis for free!!!

Because at strip bars you don't get slapped for staring.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Because at strip bars you don't get slapped for staring.

 

Likely true (though I meant looking not staring as that may be rude even at strip bars lol), but in my childhood I heard so much about how open minded and free the swedish society is and now this came as a total shock to me that laws like this are not in a backward middle eastern country but rather a (most) progressive European country. And worse they are now acting as a model for other socially progressive countries like Canada and likely may drag down others into a police state too where freedom of choice and lifestyle does not exist. What is next, the introduction of mandatory hejad in sweden lol!!!, Really!!!!.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

Dale Smith reports for Xtra!, 24 Sept 2010:

 

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Critics_slam_Conservative_MPs_pitch_to_make_buying_sex_illegal_in_Canada-9205.aspx　

Critics Slam Conservative MP's Pitch to Make Buring Sex Illegal in Canada

 

As part of her proposal to combat human trafficking, Conservative MP Joy Smith recommends that Canada criminalize the buying of sex in a manner modelled on Sweden's prostitution laws.

 

"Personally, I like the Swedish model and we can adapt many concepts from that model concerning the demand for the sex trade," Smith told Postmedia News last week.

 

The "Swedish model" came into effect in 1999 under a rationale that buying sex was a form of violence against women, which could be eliminated by reducing demand for sexual services. Similar laws have since been adopted by Norway and Iceland.

 

Smith's proposal, however, is met with skepticism by Canadian opposition parties.

 

"Typical Conservative," says

Liberal justice critic Marlene Jennings.

"Simplistic, not based on evidence, not based on fact."

 

"Human trafficking and prostitution are two different things, and that's what the Conservatives like to mix up," Jennings says. "They like to mix it up together into the same bowl so that they can confuse people and they can make outrageous statements."

 

"It makes me very discouraged ? it really does," says

NDP MP Libby Davies

, who was part of a parliamentary committee looking into sex workers before the Conservatives came to power. "They deliberately choose to avoid what is required, which is a sensitive and intelligent debate about the sex work laws in this country."

 

Davies points out that there is plenty of evidence to show that the "Swedish model" doesn't work, because it drives sex work underground, which places sex workers into vulnerable, high-risk situations where they can't come forward to report threats.

 

University of Ottawa criminologist Christine Bruckert agrees and adds that pushing the industry underground makes sex workers more likely to align with people who they feel can support them, such as pimps.

 

"If you really want to address sex workers, if you really want to make things better for sex workers, give sex workers rights," Bruckert says.

 

Smith's proposal suggests that "many frontline organizations" (unnamed in the report) have found that "sex trade workers are underage victims of forced exploitation or human trafficking" and that targeting buyers will reduce the demand for sex work.

 

Bruckert dismisses these arguments. "It doesn't even make sense. It's a law that's aimed at abolishing the sex industry.

 

"The trafficking thing is a smokescreen," Bruckert says. "There's no conceptual link between the Swedish model and reducing trafficking, and there's absolutely no evidence coming out of Sweden that it has actually reduced pimping or trafficking."

 

NDP justice critic Joe Comartin also feels that the link between human trafficking and sex work is one that needs to be carefully managed.

 

"The problem we have of always equating human trafficking with the sexual abuse area is that, in fact, we have a good deal of human trafficking in the manufacturing sector, in agriculture, hospitality," Comartin says. "All of those industries have a history of abuse going on of the workers in those areas."

 

There is also a disconnect between Smith's proposal and the way it would work with current Canadian laws. While it is not illegal to buy or sell sex for money in Canada, a number of Criminal Code provisions make it almost impossible to practice sex work safely or legally.

 

"What I think she wants to do is layer the Swedish model, which is an abolitionist model, over our model, which is a prohibitionist model," says Bruckert.

 

Smith declined an interview request by

Xtra

, and her staff directed us to the report on her website.

 

Bruckert adds that no sex worker rights organization in the world supports the Swedish model, but they instead endorse the New Zealand model of decriminalization.

 

"That has reduced the harms of sex work," Bruckert says.

 

Those harms are especially an issue in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside in the wake of the Picton tragedy, says Davies.

 

"Their complaints were never taken seriously, even when they went missing," Davies says.

 

Green Party leader Elizabeth May

agrees. "[sex workers] need to know that they can safely go to law enforcement from the threats of physical harm. We need to go in the direction of protecting their rights, ensuring that they have access to appropriate medical care, access to police and other security and law enforcement authorities.

 

"This is a disastrous and dangerous idea, and it goes in the wrong direction altogether."

 

May adds that the Green Party as a whole is debating the policy on sex workers, given that they are unsure about legalization, but have not found a model they are comfortable following.

 

Davies also draws a link between this suggestion and the Conservatives' recently making the Criminal Code offence of keeping a common bawdy house a "serious crime."

 

"By increasing the levels of penalties, and saying that three or two more individuals can now constitute 'organized crime,' and that somehow they've solved the problem they think they're dealing with, is just absolute foolishness."

 

May goes one step further. "Since the Conservative government has committed to building $9 billion in new prisons, and the crime rate is going down, I guess they want to create some new crimes to fill the prisons."

 

 

[Suzirider 737]

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Conservatives_find_back_door_for_new_antisex_work_provision-9001.aspx

"It's outrageous that they do it in the dead of summer," Davies says. "This is such a characteristic now of the Conservative government ? they bring about manoeuvres and policy changes and announce them when they think no one's paying attention.

 

What next ??? A 2010 version of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

 

Am I over reacting ?

Didn't Canada send troops to Europe to fight this shit ?

Will have to remember to salute to the next Conservative rep that comes knockin on my door. Sieg Heil :bowdown:

[Guest s******ecan****]

What next ??? A 2010 version of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

 

Am I over reacting ?

 

A bit for sure but there is no doubt the PC party has undergone a quiet and radical revoultion since the last election. Stephen Harper runs the most autocratic top down administrations we have seen, even going so far as to have one of the country's top civil servants spend time recording and reporting directly to the PM on the number of signs being erected to "advertise" stimulus projects.

 

They have been frustrated 2x in pursuit of a majority because Canadians (rightly I think) fear what that might bring.

 

They now have a plan to win a majority and it is based on US style "wedge issue" campaigning. The recent "Long Gun Registry" debate is an example. They plan to use this and other divisive (but relatively unimportant issues) to drive up voter turnout in a few key ridings that could make the difference.

 

The PC's are financially beholden to an increasingly fundamentalist base of supporters who are out of step with the majority of Canadians and who seek to turn back the clock on a lot of our social progress.

 

I have voted PC more than Liberal and have always done so for reasons of fiscal restraint (seems to have vanished) but I don't recognize the party anymore.

Its not about the hobby either, when I hear John Baird call the Liberal Leader a "Toronto elite" it turns my stomach because that is so reminiscent of the poison that has made the US political system practically non-functional.

 

I won't be voting PC this time as unimpressed as I am with the Liberals, I just don't want to see our country going any further down the road to US style political nihlism.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

The following are pieces of the an article regarding the pros and cons of the Swedish model of prostitution law.

 

It?s not uncommon for women in low paying service and secretarial jobs to turn tricks on the weekends or for a women trying to put herself through university to free lance dance at her local strip club. Stripping, writing pornography, nude photos, internet webcams, porn films, escort services, massage parlours, phone sex, peep shows, personals ads, street prostitution ? you name it, it?s a women dominant business; it?s also one of the only businesses where women can make more than men.

 

Swedish supporters argue that the new system has sponsored more collaboration between the police and social services and therefore more sensitive treatment of prostitutes. While this might be the case in some instances, violence from clients has reportedly increased. A recent Norwegian government sponsored study found that in Sweden, "? violence is an everyday occurrence for women involved in prostitution. Women tell of violence in the form of major attacks, rape, threats with knives and with being locked up. Obviously, being locked up for very serious offences.

 

Proponents of the Swedish model argue that women are more likely to report crimes such as these to the police. Swedish sex work activist Rosinha Sambo, on the other hand, dismisses this outright and claims that sex workers are actually less likely to call the police because if fellow workers and clients find out, the prostitute will become stigmatized and clients will be afraid to visit her.

 

Prostitutes talk of the new tougher existence that they face on the streets. The decreasing numbers of clients (through fear of arrest and clients seeking prostitutes in neighbouring countries) creates a more competitive market where women need to reduce their rates and are more likely to agree to sex without protection. Reports also indicate that due to the negative social stigma attached to prostitution and the greater risks for the clients, the so-called more ?normal? clients (i.e. non-abusive men looking for fairly straight sex) are no longer purchasing services and what?s left are the aggressive men who are interested in rough sex and other higher risk behaviours . Women are also forced to make split second decisions about whether to accept a client?s offer as any conversation in public could lead to his arrest. This effectively puts women in the situation of having to protect her clients and doesn?t allow her the necessary time to assess the situation using her learned intuition to get a sense of her safety.

 

Effectively, Swedish prostitutes and others are arguing that since the laws on the purchasing of sexual services have come into play prices for services have decreased, sex without condoms and violence have increased, clients are forced to go to neighbouring states, and the industry has been pushed further underground.

 

The Swedish system seems to be working fine for politicians and the feminist movement but reportedly not for the sex workers.

The implications of having a criminal record for prostitution-related offences can have a devastating effect on people's lives, preventing them, for example, from getting a job once they decide to leave the trade.

 

The incidents of street prostitution (or at least it visibility) has plummeted since the introduction of the tough prostitution laws in Sweden, though such statistics are being argued. Same argument exists for human trafficking as the criminal are now seeking easier markets like neighbouring countries.

 

My views:

 

I believe that both the Swedish model of prostitution law and the liberal German/Dutch prostitution laws are unworkable and not proper for Canada or anywhere else. I believe while governments must combat the dark aspects of prostitution more vigorously and must put aside sufficient funding and law enforcement resources to fight off forced prostitution, underage prostitution, pimping and human trafficking as well as legislating harsh (up to several years) for human sex traffickers especially those pimping and forcing the underage as well as those clients who knowingly hire the underage or forced prostitutes, however, the voluntary prostitution between consenting adult should be likely legalized and regulated. Those who want a change or out must be supported socially and financially and special government sponsored programs must be introduced to assist those sex workers for their safe transition to a new profession. Sex workers must be able to report violent clients as well as pimps to law enforcement without the fear of being prosecuted. A media campaign must commence to educate the public about sex workers and remove the stigma associated with sex workers and their profession in our society.

 

The fact remains that though likely most street sex workers are forced into prostitution (by their pimps or needs like drug addictions,?) however, there are also many other sex workers (mostly using internet and review boards) who voluntarily have chosen the profession and who are working in a clean safe environment and enjoying their work too and the law must separate between the two. Bringing harsh punishment for both types of prostitution is unfair, illogical, undemocratic, counter-productive and totally unacceptable in progressive societies such as Canada. It only serves the politicians to show off their good face or intentions and feminists who have clearly misunderstood the meaning of feminism which is about equality not unequal treatment of sexes when sex workers (overwhelming majority are women) are free from prosecution and their clients (overwhelming majority are men) are being harshly prosecuted.