Is religion holding us back?

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Interesting you should say that: I've always though precisely the opposite.

 

Science has been up its fair share of blind alleys, to be sure, but it's I've always seen it as happy to say, "We don't understand this, but we're working on it," and - crucially - not being afraid to say this. Faith and religion, by contrast, seem to me to consist largely of inventing gods and demons to explain away the things we don't understand: why the sun rises, why the rain falls (or not), why people are amazing or awful or just plain strange. In many of these cases, science has taken over the explanations, and in the others... the God of the Gaps is ever-diminishing.

 

I reread my post and you seem to be in agreement with my statement you quoted about faith, not opposed to it? Maybe I'm just having a hard time following your post ... I do have days like that. I said science is NOT satisfied with not knowing something and continually strives for an answer so they can understand what they previously did not know. Religious Faith IS satisfied with not knowing the answer to a mystery and accepts what their religion tells them with little questioning.

 

That means we're in agreement, right? Maybe I was being too verbose in my previous post?

 

Additional Comments:

Really interesting discussion.

 

The original question was whether religion was holding humanity back. Because we're in the West, we tend to focus on Christianity to the exclusion of all else, but let's start there.

 

My contention is that any one of a broad range of ideas can (and has) been used to justify atrocities in the past. Those same ideas, in their truer forms, may also have been responsible for social good. Ghandi's devout Hinduism was instrumental in the overthrow of oppression in India. William Pitt's devout Christianity was at the foundation of the abolition of slavery in Britain. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" was underwritten by his faith, as was the institution of free universal Health Care in Canada by former Baptist Minister Tommy Douglas.

 

Big ideas, grand ideas, can be perverted to justify horrible things, just as easily as they can be used to inspire wonderful things.

 

Socialism and communism have grandly moral narrative centres, yet both have been employed to justify genocide. Mao Tse Tung, atheist and devotee of science, slaughtered millions of people. Does that mean that science or atheism are "holding us back"?

 

I revert, always, to the central tenet of judging ideas by what they actually SAY, and judging people by what they actually DO.

 

Good post, Cuchullain. I agree with your comments but I still think Religion, by its very nature and insistence on faith, is more resistant to change than other philosophies or ideas you mention. Science certainly doesn't cling to "faith", at least not for very long before someone challenges the findings and it evolves. Religion resists evolving much more than most other ideas or philosophies due to it's requirement of it's practitioners to accept their idea on Faith. I am not referring only to western religious dogma. Islam is another intransigent religion.

 

It's this intransigence that I think holds us back.

[conquistador 18487]

You keep referencing "the Church" but I am not sure exactly which church you are referring too... The Roman Catholic Church... The Anglican Church... the United Church of Canada... The Pentecostal Church... The Greek Orthodox... Christians are not all one monolithic block some are more progressive then others... the Pope does not speak for the Christian Church just the Roman Catholic Church.

 

 

 

I maybe could have said that better was not suggesting that you were saying I was wrong... I am not saying you are either... just a discussion we all have our opinions. Sorry if I made you think that.

 

Love the discussion by the way.

 

The church I'm referring to is the Roman Catholic church... I think a few those are just a denomination of the Catholic church (but I'm not up on all my denominations lol... Too many to list)... Except say the Greek Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. Some are more progressive and allow priests to marry or allow women to be priests, as examples... And that's great.

 

But, I believe, all follow the same book... The bible.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Some1LikeU 321]

I find the phrase: Religion is for those too lazy to learn science ;-)

 

...applies appropriately to these type of questions and convos.

 

Also this phrase: Ignorance is Not bliss... it's money!

 

In other words: More sheeple followers whom are kept ignorant - mo'money for those directing the flock. Basic capitalism 101 ;-)

[Ice4fun 78407]

The church I'm referring to is the Roman Catholic church... I think a few those are just a denomination of the Catholic church (but I'm not up on all my denominations lol... Too many to list)... Except say the Greek Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. Some are more progressive and allow priests to marry or allow women to be priests, as examples... And that's great.

 

But, I believe, all follow the same book... The bible.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

The Roman Catholic Church is a Christian Denomination Like the others...but certainly does not represent all Christians... while I don't consider myself to be very "religious" and I am not sure I believe in a creators existence I was raised in a Christian family that attended a church that has male and female leaders, that allows their leaders to marry, that welcomes people of all sexual orientation and allows them to be leaders.... is it a perfect organization... of course not... but frankly it does lots of good work both within the local community and internationally.... it has lots of good people

[Guest s******ecan****]

Any Christian who wants to pick and choose which bible stories to believe is a fool afraid to face the facts of the violence and cruelty that the bible teaches. It is an ignorant and disgusting collection of invocations and justifications to commit mass murder, honor killings, misogyny, slavery, war, racism, homophobia, I could go on....You either accept the bible in its entirety or you reject the faith. The book is clear in that both testaments claim it to be the word of god.

 

The so called prince of peace contributes two of the worst ideas to be found between the covers of that vile tome with the introduction of vicarious human sacrifice and the promise of everlasting torture for those that reject this venomous pile of iron age morality and ethics.

 

No thanks

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

Any Christian who wants to pick and choose which bible stories to believe is a fool afraid to face the facts of the violence and cruelty that the bible teaches. It is an ignorant and disgusting collection of invocations and justifications to commit mass murder, honor killings, misogyny, slavery, war, racism, homophobia, I could go on....You either accept the bible in its entirety or you reject the faith. The book is clear in that both testaments claim it to be the word of god.

 

The so called prince of peace contributes two of the worst ideas to be found between the covers of that vile tome with the introduction of vicarious human sacrifice and the promise of everlasting torture for those that reject this venomous pile of iron age morality and ethics.

 

No thanks

 

I had been impressed with the civil and courteous tone of this discussion right up until I read this post.

 

This list is supposed to be characterized by a friendly atmosphere. Others have expressed strong opinions on this contentious topic without resorting to vitriol.

[Some1LikeU 321]

I had been impressed with the civil and courteous tone of this discussion right up until I read this post.

 

This list is supposed to be characterized by a friendly atmosphere. Others have expressed strong opinions on this contentious topic without resorting to vitriol.

 

Question for clarification: How are facts 'vitriol'? ...as you say. Just because you don't agree with facts doesn't make what has been said vitriol.

 

Being a follower of religion isn't about having a High E.Q. ;-) nor I.Q. either.

 

If there are factual errors in the previous post, then please feel free to correct them where you can - as until then, your use of the term vitriol just doesn't match the definition of what the word actually means.

 

In other words: Don't shoot the messenger just because you emotionally find Facts and the truth to be 'harsh' on your apparent delicate constitution. Focus your rage on the evils of religion, as another facts is: churches are much more parasitic to society than they have proven to be beneficial.

 

There's a reason why the guilty pope is apologizing for evil religion over and over again, and the satanic modus operandi from which it runs.

 

Another Q: Why do people choose to support and enable churches and religions to commit endless crimes against humanity?

 

A: Because too many weak and selfish people are willing to sell-out humanity (and the raping and murdering of people) as long as they get their piece of the greedy religion pie (and pacify their delusional fears of boogie-men in their heads). All too typical, and at the same time - pathetic. It keeps us from collectively reaching the next level of evolved civilization beyond this immature stage we are currently at.

 

Facts are facts - nothing to get emotional aboot ;-)

[Mikeyboy 27134]

This is a very interesting thread.

 

Although a "Devout Atheist", I have always maintained an "each to their own" philosophy on the subject of religion. That you can have your beliefs, I'll have mine. Although historically, much evil and oppression was committed in the name of religion, that today it is quite benign. I believed that religion was basically harmless and that people were too 'civilized' to allow it to be used against them in this day and age.

 

I've been forced to reevaluate that philosophy however, over the last decade in light of world events. I'm not just talking about the results of Muslim extremists who come to power (although they are a good example). I'm also referring to the Harper Reign of imposing his religion based morals on us in our own "free" country. I'm talking about the power the right wing Christian Fundamentalists have within the government in the US. How some states still require equal teaching of creationism to evolution in schools.

 

The short answer is yes, I feel it is holding us back. There doesn't seem to be a way to truly sever the relationship between church and state under most systems of government. Until that time, religion will be a hindrance to us as a species IMHO.

[Guest s******ecan****]

I had been impressed with the civil and courteous tone of this discussion right up until I read this post.

 

This list is supposed to be characterized by a friendly atmosphere. Others have expressed strong opinions on this contentious topic without resorting to vitriol.

 

there is no vitriol directed towards any member.

 

This isn't a Christian website, and my description of the bible is accurate.

 

I'm not sure how anyone can read the bible and not notice the countless examples of cruelty and barbarism contained within its pages.

 

Pretty much what we would expect from a moral guide to life in ancient tribal Palestine

 

It's also absurd to be accused of being uncivil when pointing out the incivility of the bible.

[Brad 49548]

I'm an atheist myself but from a very religious family.

 

I'm happy to say my family shows the best that religion can accomplish. It is a pillar to them that gives him hope, community, and a sense of purpose, and they are amazingly generous, forgiving, and selfless.

 

The thing is, I have no doubt they would be just as generous, forgiving, and selfless even if they weren't religious. People sometimes ask me how/why I act morally since I don't believe in heaven/hell. I usually just ask them how many people they would rob, rape, and murder if it wasn't prohibited by their religion. I ask if they want to do such things but only refrain because a higher power tells them not to.

 

There are certainly atheists who are killers and commit atrocities, but it's really hard to think of anyone who has committed such crimes "in the name of atheism". The fact that they are atheist is typically about as relevant as their hair colour. Unfortunately, while most people do good acts in the name of their religion, too often discrimination and worse is done "in the name of god".

 

I agree with those who say that even without religion such people would find another reason to seize power, kill those they don't like, be prejudice, etc. But at least without the easy excuse of 'god says so' it's a lot harder for people to justify such things and spur support.

 

I don't think eliminating religion would end all ills in the world, and I think most religious people are intelligent moral people, and I've no little interest in trying to sway anyone from their faith. But I can't help but think that if religion were to go away we'd still have all the good that's part of it and perhaps would lose some of the bad...

[Ice4fun 78407]

Any Christian who wants to pick and choose which bible stories to believe is a fool afraid to face the facts of the violence and cruelty that the bible teaches. It is an ignorant and disgusting collection of invocations and justifications to commit mass murder, honor killings, misogyny, slavery, war, racism, homophobia, I could go on....You either accept the bible in its entirety or you reject the faith. The book is clear in that both testaments claim it to be the word of god.

 

The so called prince of peace contributes two of the worst ideas to be found between the covers of that vile tome with the introduction of vicarious human sacrifice and the promise of everlasting torture for those that reject this venomous pile of iron age morality and ethics.

 

No thanks

 

Talk about a lack of tolerance for others...

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

The problem I have with the idea of Religion is that it became corrupted by men. The "message" became embellished and now we are where we are. Religions battling over messages and prophets, and none are willing to compromise on their core beliefs. These core beliefs in divinity are false.

 

Add "Faith" to the mix and religion encourages us, even insists on penalty of eternal damnation, that we blindly follow our version of the message and never concede on these false core beliefs.

 

It is this intransigence that allows a corrupted message to lay waste to our potential. Man's desires and weaknesses are behind this corruption but religion is the vehicle that makes it all possible.

 

What would the World be like without religion? If it was accepted absolutely from birth that this was your one and only shot would you waste it? Would you tolerate inequality? Allow poverty? Turn a blind eye to your fellow man? Allow "evil" to flourish? I suspect that the world would be a better place if we worked to elevate everyone towards a decent life in the here and now (instead of hoping that things work out in an afterlife which is what goes on currently).

 

It is hard, and liberating, to accept we have only each other to make it through this world.

[Guest s******ecan****]

Talk about a lack of tolerance for others...

 

It's true I don't tolerate hate speech, or hateful ideology. The bible is full of both. I don't single out Christianity for this either, every religion has blood on its hands. You will find similar hateful ideas in the Koran. The "Old Testament" dripping with blood, and hate is the proud legacy of Judaism. India is now run by an extremist Hindu fundamentalist who openly hates Muslim's, and faces credible accusations of being complicit in sectarian inspired mass murder. Even Buddhists are capable of this as we have seen in Sri Lanka, and Myanmar.

 

People choose to follow religion, they cannot pick up one end of the stick without picking up the other.

 

Right now the providers on this board risk their lives because they are prevented from making a living in this industry legally. The entire basis for this prohibition is so called religious morality.

 

My disgust with religion goes far beyond the implications for this industry however, the crimes committed daily in the name of god are too long and heartbreaking to list.

 

I make no apologies for having a lack of tolerance for all religion, as Christopher Hitchens famously said "it poisons everything".

[Ice4fun 78407]

It's true I don't tolerate hate speech, or hateful ideology. The bible is full of both. I don't single out Christianity for this either, every religion has blood on its hands. You will find similar hateful ideas in the Koran. The "Old Testament" dripping with blood, and hate is the proud legacy of Judaism. India is now run by an extremist Hindu fundamentalist who openly hates Muslim's, and faces credible accusations of being complicit in sectarian inspired mass murder. Even Buddhists are capable of this as we have seen in Sri Lanka, and Myanmar.

 

People choose to follow religion, they cannot pick up one end of the stick without picking up the other.

 

Right now the providers on this board risk their lives because they are prevented from making a living in this industry legally. The entire basis for this prohibition is so called religious morality.

 

My disgust with religion goes far beyond the implications for this industry however, the crimes committed daily in the name of god are too long and heartbreaking to list.

 

I make no apologies for having a lack of tolerance for all religion, as Christopher Hitchens famously said "it poisons everything".

 

You are entitled to your opinion but that does not make it a fact... I accept that you see nothing of value in the bible and are not a religious person ... I am happy for you that you have found a belief system that supports you but I am sorry that you don't seem willing to accept that others have the right to their own beliefs.

 

Every Muslim is not a terrorist or a bad person... just like every Christian is not a right wing fundamentalist who tries to apply his morality on others.... I would speak up against a Christian who came on here attacking atheists calling them fools and insisting they all were caricatures of the worst possible examples of some Atheist... Stalin was an Atheist yet I accept that not every Atheist would commit the atrocities he did.

 

Perhaps I should adopt your approach and assume that every atheist lacks tolerance and respect for others based on your comments about Christians who just happen to believe in something different than you.

 

Over the thousands of years terrible things have been done in the name of religion including christianity but as you suggest if you want to swing that end of the stick at least be honest enough to acknowledge the other end of that stick the many positive things have also been done ... we can argue here, as some have done, about if the bad out weighs the good but to paint all religious people as evil because of the perversion of religion by some men over the centuries is in my opinion just distasteful and not necessary.

 

Just my opinion

[Guest s******ecan****]

You are entitled to your opinion but that does not make it a fact... I accept that you see nothing of value in the bible and are not a religious person ... I am happy for you that you have found a belief system that supports you but I am sorry that you don't seem willing to accept that others have the right to their own beliefs.

 

Every Muslim is not a terrorist or a bad person... just like every Christian is not a right wing fundamentalist who tries to apply his morality on others.... I would speak up against a Christian who came on here attacking atheists calling them fools and insisting they all were caricatures of the worst possible examples of some Atheist... Stalin was an Atheist yet I accept that not every Atheist would commit the atrocities he did.

 

Perhaps I should adopt your approach and assume that every atheist lacks tolerance and respect for others based on your comments about Christians who just happen to believe in something different than you.

 

Over the thousands of years terrible things have been done in the name of religion including christianity but as you suggest if you want to swing that end of the stick at least be honest enough to acknowledge the other end of that stick the many positive things have also been done ... we can argue here, as some have done, about if the bad out weighs the good but to paint all religious people as evil because of the perversion of religion by some men over the centuries is in my opinion just distasteful and not necessary.

 

Just my opinion

 

What you just wrote is not opinion but a straw man fallacy.

 

Where have I said all religious people are evil? You won't find a quote. I'm talking about the religious texts and the ideas of religion which have a demonstrable, and unparalleled ability to corrupt and poison people into committing wicked and horrible acts. So lets get that straight.

 

What I will say of the faithful is that they need to do a better job of confronting the awfulness, of the belief systems they follow. The texts are clear, read them for yourself. That the bible contains many evil invocations is not something I have made up, or hold as mere opinion. It is fact easily checked by simply reading the book. That is an argument you cannot oppose without redacting entire sections of the bible (as Thomas Jefferson did) or pretending they don't exist. It isn't just past history either as the headlines constantly remind us.

 

As for being an atheist that is your word not mine. I don't have a special label for my non-belief in the tooth fairy, santa claus, or the easter bunny. On the other hand one could say that all people are atheists to one degree or another. Christians don't believe in Zeus, Ra, Poseidon, or Thor. In fact the followers of the main mono-theistic religions have I think made a lot of progress when it comes to atheism, having only one god remaining to eliminate in order to arrive at the true number.

 

I have no doubt that the majority of people of faith are well intentioned ordinary people pre-occupied with their immediate concerns and have every right to believe in whatever nonsense, or fairy tales they choose to. I am not advocating for religion to be banned or suppressed, but instead to be treated as what it should be, a private matter, which becomes dangerous in the hands of public authority.

 

 

Keep it out of the classrooms, the courthouses, and the legislatures.

[Kate von Katz 49953]

Religion is comforting. It is a lovely thought that there is someone else responsible for you. A convenient way to pass the proverbial buck. Religion is nothing new but I do think it is important to distinguish between monotheism and polytheism because the former is "newer" and tends to be much more problematic with the whole "our God is the only true God, everyone else is to be shunned for worshiping a false God". Polytheism had it's own brand of that, but it was not nearly as destructive as the brand monotheism subscribes to.

 

Cognitive bias also plays a major role in religion. As other have said, people take different things from the various holy texts out there. A bigot will use religion to justify their bigotry by cherry-picking bits of text which support their bigotry. This is the MO of the extremists throughout history. It is a logical fallacy to cherry-pick parts from a whole and use manipulation of context, but of course most bigots and hateful people lack the intelligence and open-mindedness to play fair when it comes to exchanging opposing ideas/opinions.

 

I do not know much of the origins of the holy texts for Judaism or Islam, but I do know the Bible was arranged for political reasons. Several books exist that are not part of the official Bibe, and the parts included were arranged in a certain order. All this was political because back then, the Church was a massive power. Understanding why holy texts were edited and laid out the way they were gives some perspective.

 

And historical perspective is often not seriously considered among followers of religion. What was acceptable two thousand years ago is not necessarily acceptable today. Religion doesn't tend to change or evolve with the times, which only helps fuel the aforementioned bigots and extremists who use the holy text of their choosing to justify their insistence that social progress is wrong.

 

But then you have the good people who take the good parts of religion. The charity, the compassion, etc. They are in greater number but the bigots are louder and draw more attention.

 

Religion does not make a good or a bad person. Human nature is what it is, and religion is only a tool some folks use to justify or reinforce whatever morals and beliefs they have already decided on.

 

Overall, I think religion is problematic. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins is one of my favorite books. Though Dawkins is a smart man and doesn't pull punches so I have an easy time relating to and appreciating him, he is definitely not for everyone.

[Victoria Phoenix 3403]

I am an ordinary believer,, and No I do not believe in Non sense, or the toothfairy for That matter! I take Complete offense to what your implying and insinuating!! Your take on believers of God, pretty Much, sit around, do nothing and wait for a glorious after life??? My friend, have You Read the bible? I think not, or You would see, God wants us as humans, to help the needy, the sick, poverty stricken, oh and did You happen to skip the Statement in the bible that reads; ask for forgiveness and You Will Be Forgiven?! You have also talked of other God's,, thats Fantastic!!! Seeing That whatever Name You have for him, the focus is still love, compassion, truth, honesty,, the List of positivity Goes on, On this last note, the ironic part of people of faith and those who are not, on their death beds, the Majority asks for God's forgiveness!

 

Additional Comments:

]I am an ordinary believer,, and No I do not believe in Non sense, or the toothfairy for That matter! I take Complete offense to what your implying and insinuating!! Your take on believers of God, pretty Much, sit around, do nothing and wait for a glorious after life??? My friend, have You Read the bible? I think not, or You would see, God wants us as humans, to help the needy, the sick, poverty stricken, oh and did You happen to skip the Statement in the bible that reads; ask for forgiveness and You Will Be Forgiven?! You have also talked of other God's,, thats Fantastic!!! Seeing That whatever Name You have for him, the focus is still love, compassion, truth, honesty,, the List of positivity Goes on, On this last note, the ironic part of people of faith and those who are not, on their death beds, the Majority asks for God's forgiveness!

and I am fairly new on here, This Is in response to Scott the cannuck

[Some1LikeU 321]

This is one of the goofiest things I've ever read:

 

Talk about a lack of tolerance for others...

 

So people and society should tolerate religion and what evil men do as long as you and others like you get what you want from supporting and enabling religion (and evil men)? How quickly you forget Mount Cashell - go google it.

 

Just goes to show once again people need to educate themselves (and learn what values and ethics are, among other things) before selling out the victims of religion just to pacify made-up childish superstitions in their heads for fear of the boogie-men which hide therein as a sign of low IQ, low EQ and all around weakness. Yet how wrongeous to push such greed onto others - Residental Schools anyone? Why do religious people hate humanity so much, and are so afraid of others they are jealous of, and feel in-superior too? Greed is a sin there hypocrites. So is murder and rape - even when pro-claiming it in the name of someone's 'god'. Uber weak!! Cowards. Heathens. ...and just WRONG.

 

How about joining the conversation here and start using facts rather than capitulating to insecurity. Not doing so only further gives license to the fact, again: "Religion is only for those too lazy to learn science". Now prove me wrong (vs. keep proving me right) ;-)

 

Want talk aboot Psychology too there mate? ;-) Facts are fun! They're the BEST!

 

However - In the meantime: Please stop trying to hijack this thread and turn it into an emotional squabble. So far things have been great to have an adult convo about this :-)

Praise be the facts, eh-men!

[MightyPen 67414]

a sign of low IQ, low EQ and all around weakness.

Please stop that. It doesn't help.

 

So people and society should tolerate religion and what evil men do

No. Just religion. Let people choose how they want to make sense of the world. If they go on to harm someone, then punish the offenders for that harm. As many people have been saying here, people who do harm were pretty much predisposed to do harm anyway, and the reasons they proclaim are just handy excuses.

 

Lots of twisted people have done really terrible things in the supposed name of perfectly good ideas.

 

"Religion is only for those too lazy to learn science".

I think this betrays a misunderstanding of how people work, and what purpose religion serves for the vast majority of people in the modern world.

 

People are social creatures, and for most people our primary day to day preoccupations are social and emotional -- NOT intellectual. We want to love, be loved, and live in a world that makes emotional sense and assures us of purpose and belonging. For a lot of people, this is the need that religion meets. Most people aren't concerned with religion for its dogma, but for the community and shared sense of meaning that it provides.

 

Science isn't intended to meet social or emotional needs; it's an intellectual pursuit that's only concerned with identifying the (comprehensible) mechanisms of the external world. And for that purpose, it's the most effective tool that the species has ever come up with. But if you approach human experience and understanding from an exclusively intellectual and scientific viewpoint, you will miss an enormous range of experience that's derived from being not just a mind, but a whole organism, and just one member of the whole, often irrational human community.

 

Most people take bits and pieces from many different viewpoints to serve their various needs. They end up with something that isn't always logically consistent; but it lets them the live fulfilling, fully engaged lives that were their goal in the first place.

 

But some people -- let's call them fanatics -- wall themselves off from such lives and cling to just one viewpoint. Sometimes it's religious and emotional; sometimes scientific and intellectual. We should feel badly for both cases.

[Ice4fun 78407]

This is one of the goofiest things I've ever read:

 

 

 

So people and society should tolerate religion and what evil men do as long as you and others like you get what you want from supporting and enabling religion (and evil men)? How quickly you forget Mount Cashell - go google it.

 

Just goes to show once again people need to educate themselves (and learn what values and ethics are, among other things) before selling out the victims of religion just to pacify made-up childish superstitions in their heads for fear of the boogie-men which hide therein as a sign of low IQ, low EQ and all around weakness. Yet how wrongeous to push such greed onto others - Residental Schools anyone? Why do religious people hate humanity so much, and are so afraid of others they are jealous of, and feel in-superior too? Greed is a sin there hypocrites. So is murder and rape - even when pro-claiming it in the name of someone's 'god'. Uber weak!! Cowards. Heathens. ...and just WRONG.

 

How about joining the conversation here and start using facts rather than capitulating to insecurity. Not doing so only further gives license to the fact, again: "Religion is only for those too lazy to learn science". Now prove me wrong (vs. keep proving me right) ;-)

 

Want talk aboot Psychology too there mate? ;-) Facts are fun! They're the BEST!

 

However - In the meantime: Please stop trying to hijack this thread and turn it into an emotional squabble. So far things have been great to have an adult convo about this :-)

Praise be the facts, eh-men!

 

Tolerance involves accepting the differences that others may bring ... You feel there are no redeeming benefits to religion while I see religion as much more complex then that... I have seen the benefits it has been in people's lives and also accept that it has caused many problems over the years. I accept your not wanting religion as part of your life but I also accept that people who are religious have a right to their beliefs.... I don't feel the need to call you names or suggest you need to be educated or to be disrespectful or ignorant to you but by all means if that approach makes you feel better please feel free to continue.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Please stop that. It doesn't help.

 

 

No. Just religion. Let people choose how they want to make sense of the world. If they go on to harm someone, then punish the offenders for that harm. As many people have been saying here, people who do harm were pretty much predisposed to do harm anyway, and the reasons they proclaim are just handy excuses.

 

Lots of twisted people have done really terrible things in the supposed name of perfectly good ideas.

 

 

I think this betrays a misunderstanding of how people work, and what purpose religion serves for the vast majority of people in the modern world.

 

People are social creatures, and for most people our primary day to day preoccupations are social and emotional -- NOT intellectual. We want to love, be loved, and live in a world that makes emotional sense and assures us of purpose and belonging. For a lot of people, this is the need that religion meets. Most people aren't concerned with religion for its dogma, but for the community and shared sense of meaning that it provides.

 

Science isn't intended to meet social or emotional needs; it's an intellectual pursuit that's only concerned with identifying the (comprehensible) mechanisms of the external world. And for that purpose, it's the most effective tool that the species has ever come up with. But if you approach human experience and understanding from an exclusively intellectual and scientific viewpoint, you will miss an enormous range of experience that's derived from being not just a mind, but a whole organism, and just one member of the whole, often irrational human community.

 

Most people take bits and pieces from many different viewpoints to serve their various needs. They end up with something that isn't always logically consistent; but it lets them the live fulfilling, fully engaged lives that were their goal in the first place.

 

But some people -- let's call them fanatics -- wall themselves off from such lives and cling to just one viewpoint. Sometimes it's religious and emotional; sometimes scientific and intellectual. We should feel badly for both cases.

 

This is an excellent post, articulate and respectful! Brilliant!

 

MP seems to be referencing a spiritual aspect to our humanity which I never intended to discredit in my original post asking if "religion" is holding us back. It is when a set of rules and beliefs becomes entrenched in religious dogma that I think we hold ourselves back as a species. Spirituality is a broader concept where a "sense of connection with something bigger than ourselves" allows for many perspectives to arrive at what "this" all means. That's an existential question that we all ask and is a part of our human experience, and should be in my opinion.

[Nicolette Vaughn 294340]

I would guess there aren't too many devout people on here so hopefully no one gets too offended with my question.

 

Does religion serve a useful purpose or is it holding us back in our evolution as a species. We sure do some barbaric things in the name of various religions and you don't need to be religious to be a moral person, contrary to what religion has to say on the subject. I always thought if it was only fear of divine retribution making someone treat others nicely, we were in trouble.

 

Anyone have any opinions they want to discuss on the topic?

 

I was raised as a Catholic and all I have to say is I no longer believe in organized religion because people exploit it to put fear in others. Since the church was the head of state, this is where it all started. Look at all these molestation cases within the Catholic church. Very sad indeed. This is just my opinion. Imo, organized religion has some good aspects but the bad outweigh the good where exploitation, control and abuse are concerned.

 

I am not up on the issue of religion and the political side of it because I have no interest for that. I am a very spiritually based person and "source" ( I no longer use "God") is not an asshole and will not condemn someone because there is unconditional love for everyone despite whatever they do. I no longer live my life in fear as I know I'm always protected by a higher power. Do I need to congregate with other people every Sunday to be assured of this? No. I believe in a higher power but I do not believe in the church and what it stands for.

 

I believe in being a good person and I don't have to go to a building to talk to a higher power. I am heavily into metaphysics and I do believe in angels and have a good connection with them within the last year and a half as I've gone through a spiritual awakening that has changed my life. Many of my day to day dealings are done with angels. I truly believe I am here to help other people.

 

Many things have happened to me that appear to be strange to those who are not experiencing what I am because I believe I am consciously "awake" now. I am obviously not a bible thumper quoting scripture to put the fear in someone and I see a lot of this in online comments esp on youtube. Organized religion is not for me even though this was how I was raised. No offense to those who utilize it.

 

I have had religious figures appear to me in dreams such as Jesus, Archangel Michael ( 2x) and the Pope John Paul II ( 2 x) since late 2013. Someone is trying to tell me something but I have followed it on my own in private instead of organized religion. I'm still trying to figure out the spiritual path I'm on as it has been very lonely and confusing at times especially with what I have been taught in my younger years with organized religion and its aspects. There are still some things I believe in from my earlier days but the bare bones of organized religion itself and as a group, I no longer believe in such as being part of a particular faith or denomination.

 

I do have to say though that I respect other people for whatever their beliefs are. However, when someone is imposing their religious beliefs on another, I have a problem with that. Live and let be.

 

The term "God fearing" is an oxymoron to me. No one should fear "source" or "God". Just my opinion.

[drlove 37204]

Thank you, Nicolette for your brilliant post. You've basically summed up the way I feel about it as well. For me, the idea has always been that we should strive to be 'good' people - be kind, generous, help one another and don't hurt anyone. I believe 'God' would say "live and let live". That's where the whole notion of organized religion doesn't fly. I don't buy the view that God is vengeful or anything of the sort. God, being all knowing and all powerful etc. would be above such human foibles. He/she/it is pure love (imho).

 

Also, in my view, religion and God are not the same thing. You hear scriptures talk about Satan, Day of Judgement, eternal damnation and so forth. Yet, the word Satan comes from the Hebrew word 'Shatan' which means the choice of evil, not the embodiment of. Therefore, I feel that organized religion is self serving and basically uses fear and control to promote its own agenda. That is why I have no time for anyone with a 'holier than thou' attitude.

 

Finally, if there is a judgement day, I believe we judge ourselves. That is, we are shown a review of our lives, and how our actions, be they positive or negative, affect others... something like the ripple effect of throwing a rock into a still pond for instance. I believe we also get to feel the joy or pain we have caused others in our lives, in order to drive the point home so to speak. Again, these are just my own opinions.

[johnybird 4391]

I used to be a religious person, nothing to out there just your run of the mill person that believed there was a higher power up in the sky. Do I believe there is someone up there looking down at us now? of course not. Is anybody listening to our prayers? I highly doubt it. Unfortunately events in my recent past have made me doubt my beliefs and I really don't believe anymore.

 

I have nothing against religion. I'm not bitter about it and I do respect other people's beliefs. I think it's important if it gives the believer hope or makes them a better person. Yes many evil things have been done in the name of religion, but evil people will do whatever evil people want to do, if religion isn't around they will just find some other excuse.

 

When the Grimm Reaper finally comes for me, if I end up at the pearly gates and I am proven wrong and there is a higher power out there looking over us, watching us and listening to our prayers...believe you me I will have a few choice words to say to him/her/it.