Ontario Court Deems Prostitution Laws Unconstitutional

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I believe the ball is in Parliament's court right now, isn't it? So the SCC will do nothing until Parliament responds. And it seems to me that just maybe a month or so ago Parliament tabled it, to deal with it later. So....who knows. Maybe it will be put off until the next government, who will then be left to deal with it. And who knows what THAT will mean.

 

Not sure, but it seems to me that that is where it is at.

My understanding is different. I think that the parliament is waiting for the SCC decision and then and only then if the government wishes it can take the matter to the parliament to amend the existing prostitution law (either implement what SCC decides which in my view would be a decision to support OSC ruling or go the other direction and make prostitution illegal). I am not aware of any prostitution law being tabled in the parliament a month ago either.

[Athos 108589]

My understanding is different. I think that the parliament is waiting for the SCC decision and then and only then if the government wishes it can take the matter to the parliament to amend the existing prostitution law (either implement what SCC decides which in my view would be a decision to support OSC ruling or go the other direction and make prostitution illegal). I am not aware of any prostitution law being tabled in the parliament a month ago either.

 

This is correct ... the SCC is seized with the Bedford case and will hear it this week. Parliament will not touch the issue until after the ruling, and most likely will do nothing after the ruling either. The safest course for the government is to simply accept the Supreme Court's determination of the issue. It takes the political issue out of their hands and allows them to focus on other things ... like survival.

 

Porthos

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

I agree with Samantha:

Their opportunity to make money will be the deciding factor in the end. (Samantha)

 

Once they acquiesce to the "morality" issue, how to grab money will be the main issue. I foresee licensing fees, etc ahead. So am not sure how I feel about this.

 

My main desire is that we don't have to worry about our incall location being illegal. But am I willing to put my name on paper (a license) to have that reassurance? Hmmmm.......not so sure. I hate paper trails of any kind in this business. Even if the government becomes okay with it all, society's moral judgement still makes me want to not have my name or address appear on anything that can help anyone connect the dots to me and this "trade."

 

Most sex workers who have been involved in conversations with municipalities say that the focus has been on multi-staff brothels, not on independent women who work quietly. To be sure, the brothels will face stiff licensing fees and restrictions about locations, at least. There may be other things, such as inspections, health checks and safer-sex practice requirements. I, for one, think that many of these things will benefit all of us. For example, to return to the general requirement that all sexual contact must be done with condoms establishes that as the norm for companionship engagement and eliminates a lot of the pressure for uncovered contact that most of us experience now.

 

While it may seem that licensing individual, independent escorts would be a good idea, the notion is largely unenforceable. The great majority of women who enter the sex trade leave it within six months and another huge proportion work for less than a year. Trying to track down every provider who's decided to make this her summer job before going back to school would be a by-laws enforcement nightmare. It's much more likely that licenses of some kind may be required but only enforced if there are complaints made about noise, late-night traffic and so on.

 

Prostitution was never illegal in Sweden either until it became illegal. Harper government has been out of touch with Canadian public before so this wouldn't be the first time. [,,,]

 

What works against them is the Canadian public opinion that a majority at this moment believe prostitution should remain legal and become safe (though public can be brainwashed too as it happened in Sweden). The other thing against them is as said their pre-occupation with the mess they have created over past 2 years and dealing with scandals and corruptions so though majority it is a weak government . And third if the SCC decision come late say in the last 12 months of this government (2015) then they may leave it to the next elected government and I doubt it that with all these scandals Canadians will elect another majority conservative government [....]

 

Btw, anybody knows roughly when a final decision by SCC will be made?

 

It is essential to recognize that Canada is NOT Sweden. The Ontario Court of Appeal heard a great deal about the so-called "Nordic model" and its outcomes. The OCA was not impressed. Canadian courts in general have been very reluctant to adopt uneven criminal laws such as allowing for something to be sold, legally, but making it illegal to buy it. Even more important, however, Sweden is not known to have experienced anything like Picton's activities. In Canada, the recognition that sex workers were preyed upon by a serial killer because they worked in the most unsafe conditions in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside is not going to be forgotten anytime soon.

 

... the SCC is seized with the Bedford case and will hear it this week. Parliament will not touch the issue until after the ruling, and most likely will do nothing after the ruling either. The safest course for the government is to simply accept the Supreme Court's determination of the issue. It takes the political issue out of their hands and allows them to focus on other things ... like survival.

 

We all need to recognize that for the last two and a half years the police in most regions have not been arresting or charging independent sex workers who have been working quietly from their own homes or rented apartments. Some ladies have been harassed by former clients who have attempted unsuccessfully to have them charged. There have been sweeps of some massage parlors and there has been some interest in investigating situations in which temporary foreign workers may have been pressured into providing sexual services. But because the prostitution laws were coming up to be examined by the Supreme Court of Canada, and because some things are certainly bound to change once the SCC makes its decisions, it's not a good use of police or judicial time or resources to prosecute anyone under laws that may be overturned.

 

This respite is significant because it's gone on so long. For two and a half years, women have been able to relax a little bit, feel less fearful of being arrested because they entertain at home. And yet there are no significant increases in the deterioration of Canada's moral fabric. Brothels have not been spring up across the street from elementary schools, nor has there been an obvious increase in the numbers of lust-crazed men prowling around otherwise respectable communities or neighbourhoods. Things have been pretty much okay. Meanwhile, plenty of us have been making money and taking care of ourselves and our clients, as before.

 

This is the status quo. It's going to make an enormous difference to Canadian voters as well as to the SCC that what might be considered to have been a temporary suspension of the prostitution laws has not obviously caused any harm, anywhere.

 

The SCC usually returns decisions within a year of hearing a case. Sometimes more quickly. Most of us expect the court to make rulings sometime in 2014.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

 

 

It is essential to recognize that Canada is NOT Sweden. The Ontario Court of Appeal heard a great deal about the so-called "Nordic model" and its outcomes. The OCA was not impressed. Canadian courts in general have been very reluctant to adopt uneven criminal laws such as allowing for something to be sold, legally, but making it illegal to buy it. Even more important, however, Sweden is not known to have experienced anything like Picton's activities. In Canada, the recognition that sex workers were preyed upon by a serial killer because they worked in the most unsafe conditions in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside is not going to be forgotten anytime soon.

 

If there is a Swedish or Nordic model imposed in this country it will be by the parliament overcrowded by conservative MPs not the courts. I agree that Canada is not Sweden and the feminist movement is much stronger in Sweden but this model has become the law in many other countries recently including Ireland. Even in France its parliamentary commission is calling for Swedish model!!!..I understand that even in England government is under pressure to review prostitution law and Nordic system is proposed by pressure groups.

[Guest S****r]

This was the delay I was referring to. Sorry, it was the NDP only, not Parliament: http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=129291&highlight=delays

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

I don't think there's anything to be gained by focusing on the worst-case scenarios and negative what-ifs. We also can't compare Canada with European countries where one of the problems they face is steady migration of workers in all industries which puts considerable stress on employment, employers, police and social services generally.

 

Canada is a genuinely moderate, liberal country, even with the Harper government. Prostitution and regulating the sex trade are not big issues here and certainly don't compare to problems with the economy, the environment, health care delivery and patronage.

 

The SCC hearing this week will be fascinating. The court's rulings, whenever they happen, will be even more so. How the government does or does not respond in terms of legislation will also take time. Things may change. Or not. Worrying in advance won't make a difference in the end.

 

If we have a negative outcome, our basic screening requirements may become much more strict. Prices may rise. One thing is sure: my colleagues and I will continue to work as long as there are suitable gentlemen interested in meeting with us.

 

So, relax.

[MsMorganThorne 260]

Just thought you guys might like an update. I was at the SCC when the case was heard. What an experience!

 

We are very hopeful. The court asked some really good questions, seemed like they were sympathetic to the decrim side. They made it clear they didn't want to hear about the Nordic model. At one point, one judge got pissed and tried to get the abolitionist lawyer to admit that by putting forth the Nordic model as an alternative, that they really wanted to criminalize everything.

 

We should hear a decision in 6 months to a year. Legal minds tell me that this is so the government has time to come up with some new solutions if/when the laws are struck down for good.

[drlove 37204]

Yes, but what kind of solutions? If the SCC rules in favour of decriminalization, is it conceivable that parliament will go the way of the United States and make prostitution and everything surrounding it 100% illegal?

[whiteman 14028]

Yes, but what kind of solutions? If the SCC rules in favour of decriminalization, is it conceivable that parliament will go the way of the United States and make prostitution and everything surrounding it 100% illegal?

They said they don't want to use the Nordic model, which would mean the US model would be even worse.

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

Yes, but what kind of solutions? If the SCC rules in favour of decriminalization, is it conceivable that parliament will go the way of the United States and make prostitution and everything surrounding it 100% illegal?

 

They said they don't want to use the Nordic model, which would mean the US model would be even worse.

 

It's extremely unlikely that the federal government will attempt to make prostitution illegal if the SCC rules in favour of decriminalization. Prostitution is not a big issue in Canada and never has been. In poll after poll, most Canadians surveyed do not express any interest in making it illegal for someone to be a prostitute. As a fair-minded country, Canadians aren't interested in criminalizing men who see prostitutes but don't cause any problems for them or for others in their neighbourhood.

 

It would be MUCH easier to enact prohibitive legislation if there had been a recent case that the government could cite as a reasonable demonstration of how dangerous and harmful prostitution is and show that it needs to be severely curtailed. But there simply isn't a case like that. The Picton murders and subsequent inquiry demonstrated the vulnerability of street-based sex workers and highlighted the insecurity of sex workers in general. Public opinion consistently lies in favour of protecting vulnerable groups rather than outlawing them. And yes, I know that public opinion can be fickle, but let's also remember that the present federal government is more responsive to poll results than any other in recent history.

 

The other thing to keep in mind at all times is that criminalization will require increasing police attention and court time to address prostitution-related crimes. In most jurisdictions, there simply isn't enough money, let alone political will, when it comes to expanding the police force unnecessarily. Conflicts related to prostitution are frequently viewed as inter-personal, with one person claiming to have been badly treated by another. This kind of problem never gets a great deal of attention from the police or the public unless there's significant violence or someone dies. Our courts are already overloaded. In some jurisdictions, people who have been charged with violent crimes have been allowed to walk free because it wasn't possible to bring them to trial in a timely manner. Is there much political will to expand the number of judges and generally increase court times and services in order to prosecute prostitutes and their clients? It's doubtful, particularly since the great majority of us work without anyone's notice. Even though we're easy to find if someone wants our companionship, we're not usually easy to notice in other ways. Canadians are more concerned about things like human trafficking and the sexual exploitation of children and minors--rightly so!

 

Ultimately, the big question is whether criminalizing prostitution will make it go away. The answer is no, of course not. We're not called "the oldest profession" for nothing. Ours is a capitalist economy. If prostitution were to be criminalized, expect to pay higher fees and to have to provide significantly more verifiable personal information if you want to see a professional companion. We'll still be working.

[fortunateone 156618]

It occurred to me also that the Picton enquiry should also highlight the dangers of outcalls, not just street workers being picked up.

[sexykandice98 110]

I just wanted to say thank you to all who have taken the time to give us all the info that is in the thread. I myself have found it very helpful. Its so nice to see so many getting together for a cause we all believe in.

Kandice

[Sweet Emily J 172062]

An interesting and easy to understand article explaining what could be next after the laws are struck down and what sex workers want and need in a post-decrim Canada:

 

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2013/04/sex-workers-are-coming

[Sweet Emily J 172062]

A pretty decent video about prostitution in Canada and the laws related and being challenged:

 

Prostitution in Canada:

Sex for sale: Canadian hookers take the law to court! Find out if legal brothels will soon be coming to a street near you. Daryl Konynenbelt reports.