Deception: the practice of deceiving.

[Piquant 722]

I haven?t been a hobbyist for very long and thanks to CERB and the various ?newbie? threads I discovered the etiquette of the envelope (I never knew?)

Personally, I have no issues with an SP opening the envelope before or after. Frankly I?d rather an SP check first (having met me for the first time and me not having much of a reputation on CERB) rather than go through the engagement with uncertainty and doubt.

For me, it?s all about the experience, new experiences, different experiences, any experience I?ve never had before. How could I expect any of that to happen if the SP I?m meeting with is uncertain / distrustful of me?

Recently, I met with two lovely ladies. The donation was previously discussed and I had the envelope ready. Upon entering, I was totally distracted by the hugs, kisses, introductions (the ladies wearing next to nothing), being escorted to the couch, sitting between the ladies and trying to carry on a coherent conversation?

Through all of this the envelope was in the pocket of my jacket hanging in a closet. I think it took me about ten minutes to remember I hadn?t placed it on the table by the door as I should have upon entering.

I was mortified?

Credit to the ladies, they never seemed concerned or upset even after watching me searching for the envelope in a mild panic (I?m sure I looked like an idiot).

All this is to say that some guys (me included) try to do the right thing, but may end up messing it up a bit?

There is however a difference between the guys in the midst of a blood pressure / adrenaline rush having messed things up and the fellow who sets out with malicious intent (e.g. the guy stuffing the envelope with Canadian Tire money).

There is that element of society that will always try to get something for nothing with total disregard for the ramifications that their actions have on others.

By definition, they are criminals?

Anybody in the professional services industry must take appropriate measures to protect themselves from the criminal element while seeking to provide a good experience to their target customer demographic. It?s a delicate balance to be sure.

I?ll close off my post with this final comment?

Business is business. Implement whatever protective measures you deem necessary. As CEO / president of your own company, that?s entirely up to you. You just have to find that balance point.

I consider myself a customer at large, hope to be your customer soon?

 

Additional Comments:

It is different with dancers though Megan (I think that 2 years out of that 3 years you were a dancer, no?). Dancers never ask upfront. I was going to strip bars for a decade. Met thousands of dancers and not even once was I asked at a strip bar to pay upfront to the best of my memory. It would be very unusual. For escort ladies and maseusses it is of course different. I have seen over 100 escorts and I always put the unsealed envelope right on the tables where they can see upon arrival, with their name and amount of cash written on the back of envelop.

 

SA, life is a journey of learning. Today I learned something from you.

Lessons learned: name & amount written on the envelope (seems obvious in hindsight)

Thanks.

[overthehilltowin 100]

I've only seen 2 SPs one in Montreal and one in Ottawa.

 

On all three occasions I just pulled out my wallet and counted out 20 dollar bills on a table until i reached the correct amount for the agreed upon time frame. I like antlerman's move of asking to use the bathroom to give the girl time to count the money for herself and to put it away (envelope or not).

 

But the concept of putting money in an envelope seems deeply disingenuous to me because you are paying for sex and companionship for a set amount of time. This is not a real relationship or romance, it is a fantasy. Why extend the fantasy to how the payment is presented? For all you know the girl might not even like you outside of the meeting (despite, for example, being friendly, polite, well-groomed, well-dressed, and clean). But i guess some guys want to maintain the fantasy that the girl secretly likes them and a smart escort will encourage that fantasy for repeat visits.

 

I would actually prefer it if a girl counts the money right in front of me. It is as if she is unconsciously being totally honest with me about what exactly is being exchanged: not love for money, not a real girlfriend, but rather just sex for money. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

It is different with dancers though Megan (I think that 2 years out of that 3 years you were a dancer, no?). Dancers never ask upfront. I was going to strip bars for a decade. Met thousands of dancers and not even once was I asked at a strip bar to pay upfront to the best of my memory. It would be very unusual. For escort ladies and maseusses it is of course different. I have seen over 100 escorts and I always put the unsealed envelope right on the tables where they can see upon arrival, with their name and amount of cash written on the back of envelop.

That's my point is that dancing is even riskier to us because we can't ask for money upfront due to the culture. It just doesn't work.

[antlerman 17064]

I would love to read Cat's input on this topic........:wink:

[cat 262460]

Antlerman, you are stirring the pot and I will reply as soon as I have a chance to write my thoughts down...

 

cat

[antlerman 17064]

Wow..now that is wild.....it is like she is aware of our thoughts....

 

cat...I would never stir the pot......I, and many other look forward to your writtings and your insight.

[etasman2000 15994]

Please place the envelope with donation on the table or somewhere visible without prompting....... these are the typical directions found on any ladies website.

 

What envelope ?

 

Want to extend the fantasy bring along a "Happy to see you card" from Hallmark and use that.

 

Bouquet with the envelope accompanying.

 

Wrapped boxed of chocolates, envelope attached.

 

There are many many other ideas where you can bring along an envelope will keeping in-line with the fantasy.

 

Counting, make it easy on the lady and bring larger bills. $50 are still accepted in most stores. $100 are troublesome to use right away and can reduce counting dramatically. $20 ? paper clip every 5 $20 before it goes into the envelope.

 

For hobbiest who really don't like counting and bringing an envelope ? Pre-pay.

[Guest s******ecan****]

I would also add that having a routine for money and safety regardless of how well you know a client is good so that you do these things automatically and then if something bad happens such as fraud or violence you are prepared.

 

I would just like to add that as part of a good routine as Charlotte has suggested, that ladies (especially those who are touring) should be making regular deposits to their bank accounts in order to keep cash on hand to a minimum.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

That's my point is that dancing is even riskier to us because we can't ask for money upfront due to the culture. It just doesn't work.

 

I am not sure I can agree with that. Dancers pay a hefty fee to the club that they dance and for most part it is for protection. That is why they have bouncers there to protect the ladies and also ensure that they are not cheated out of their money. So, I am not sure it is as risky as escorting besides the amount of dollars in question is much less than escorts (average $40 to $60).

 

I think the reason for this culture (related to dancing) is that upfront nobody knows how many songs it is going to be. Sometimes I plan on two songs and then I enjoy the lady so much that I keep her for 5+ songs and sometimes I stopped right after the first song depending on many factors (only will be known during the dance) such as hygiene, open mindedness, personality,....

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

That is why they have bouncers there to protect the ladies and also ensure that they are not cheated out of their money.

No such luck at many clubs in the city. You guys don't get to see what goes on behind the scenes.

 

At Bare Fax when I started working they told me "collect money every 2 songs. If you come to us saying he owes you $60 or more it's your own fault." When I tried the Silver Dollar, there are signs saying "Dances must be paid for upfront. Gentlemen, if a dancer does not collect the money, the dance is free!"

[whatsup 11893]

I place the donation in an unsealed envelope before the encounter. When I see the provider, I remove the money and count the donation in front of the provider, this way I feel it just eases the providers mind and will make for a more relaxing rendezvous.

[Phaedrus 209521]

At Bare Fax when I started working they told me "collect money every 2 songs. If you come to us saying he owes you $60 or more it's your own fault." When I tried the Silver Dollar' date=' there are signs saying "Dances must be paid for upfront. Gentlemen, if a dancer does not collect the money, the dance is free!"[/quote']

Yeesh. I've got to say, that really doesn't sound fun. I'm sure I've spent less time in SCs than many of the folks here, but I don't recall ever having been asked for payment every dance or two... and I suspect that if a dancer asked me to pay at some point then I'd assume that was the end.

 

Must admit, I'm surprised to hear that the SC won't help you out if you get someone who won't pay. I'd always assumed that a refusal to pay would lead to the rapid involvement of big guys in badly-fitting suits... but maybe I'm just naive about how much the clubs care about the people that work there.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

No such luck at many clubs in the city. You guys don't get to see what goes on behind the scenes.

 

At Bare Fax when I started working they told me "collect money every 2 songs. If you come to us saying he owes you $60 or more it's your own fault." When I tried the Silver Dollar' date=' there are signs saying "Dances must be paid for upfront. Gentlemen, if a dancer does not collect the money, the dance is free!"[/quote']

 

Yes that is horrible. I always thought that the clubs would be fully supportive of their dancers!!!. Strange that all these years especially between 1998 to 2008 when I was going to SCs 2 -3 times a week, I was never asked to pay upfront.

 

In all fairness I must say that cheating is committed by both sides in the strip bars and likely more by dancers. Though I have always fully paid for the dance (even those who broke the promise of providing a contact dance or dance in nudity), however on countless occasions I was overcharged for the dancers by between one to more than two songs. In one occasion I paid the dancer a $50 bill as I did not have any $20 bill (and she was not clearly happy that I stopped after a song) and she went out to get the change except that I never saw her again. She left the bar. On another occasion the dancer danced for 2 and a half song (started in the middle of song without me asking) and insisted (and charged me) for FIVE songs.

 

Yes I do believe Cheating is bad, no matter who commits it but I believe that cheating is a lot worse when it is committed by the strong against the weak and by that I mean by customers (who obviously have plenty of money to go around) against young defenceless girls who are trying to make a living in this difficult economic times, most of them single mothers.

[Andee 220524]

 

Angela of Ottawa: Yikes: Not that I would ever try and short change an SP, your suggested approach or threat, is why I never give out a ?traceable phone number?. IF an SP is vindictive for what ever reason, clients must be prepared to protect themselves until a level of trust is reached. I just saw your second post - From your CERB personality, I didn't really think you would do it. Too bad it came to a threat.

 

I have no reason to be vindictive, but if someone does something to me, I have to at least send the message that they better respond to me because it could get worse. Then maybe they'll at least think about it.

 

I have never misused or abused any client's phone number but he was the one who let me know and then pulled that shit. Not very bright I would say if he was planning to get away with it.

[fortunateone 156618]

I've only seen 2 SPs one in Montreal and one in Ottawa.

 

On all three occasions I just pulled out my wallet and counted out 20 dollar bills on a table until i reached the correct amount for the agreed upon time frame. I like antlerman's move of asking to use the bathroom to give the girl time to count the money for herself and to put it away (envelope or not).

 

But the concept of putting money in an envelope seems deeply disingenuous to me because you are paying for sex and companionship for a set amount of time. This is not a real relationship or romance, it is a fantasy. Why extend the fantasy to how the payment is presented? For all you know the girl might not even like you outside of the meeting (despite, for example, being friendly, polite, well-groomed, well-dressed, and clean). But i guess some guys want to maintain the fantasy that the girl secretly likes them and a smart escort will encourage that fantasy for repeat visits.

 

I would actually prefer it if a girl counts the money right in front of me. It is as if she is unconsciously being totally honest with me about what exactly is being exchanged: not love for money, not a real girlfriend, but rather just sex for money. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

It's like you're reading my mind lol.

 

Seriously, it is always wonderful to see the POV from the client side when this transaction takes place. To me, the activity of envelope stuffing, don't touch don't mention, seems more calculation and deliberate, than a simple and upfront honest process just like you describe. If the sp is upfront and open with payment, etc, it seems to me she will be upfront and open about her services and her personality.

 

I also mean there is still something naughty and illicit about this whole thing. Why deny the client the opportunity to experience that extra thrill of excitement. Turning it into a psuedo date just takes that extra naughtiness out of it all.

[etasman2000 15994]

I also mean there is still something naughty and illicit about this whole thing. Why deny the client the opportunity to experience that extra thrill of excitement. Turning it into a psuedo date just takes that extra naughtiness out of it all.

 

Every one is different and really its just a matter of SP/hobbiest finding a common ground.

 

Some might find the pseudo date a healthy mental attitude to take, others prefer a clinical-its-a-job approach. And this statement cuts both ways.

[E.D. man 691]

\myself i usually always ask the sp to count it. occassionally i forget.