Never Again

[mrrnice2 157005]

They say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It is perhaps from that perspective that I write this and with a sense of foreboding. I hope beyond hope that I am wrong. As a very amateur historian with a strong interest in the rise of Hitler and Nazi Germany in the 1930's, I cannot help but see and feel the eerie similarities with the rise of Donald Trump who is on the verge of being elected President of the United States.

 

It is generally accepted that there were several keys to Hitlers rise. The first was a population that was living in desperate conditions. There was poverty, mass unemployment or underemployment , the feeling of having a lack of control of their own country and there was a pervasive lack of hope. Being desperate they were ready to grasp anything or anyone that offered an alternative. For many Americans this can be argued to be true at present.

 

Hitler used hate as a way to unite the country behind him. He gave the people someone to blame and promises of greatness. Through manipulation the people gave him absolute control, legally. We know that the holocaust and WW II resulted - and all of that from a population of people who were just like you and I.

 

We need not listen too long or look too hard to hear the hate from Trump and the way that he is focusing that hate on certain groups. He has now proclaimed himself as the law and order candidate. Think Gestapo.

 

I realize that this is a very bare bones and inadequate review of the rise of Fascism in Germany in the 1930's however the similarities to today are very clear, at least to me.

 

Around the world there is a rallying cry, "Never Again." I am very fearful for a large population of people in the U.S. - Muslims, Mexicans, Latinos, LGBTQ people and anyone that does not fit Donald Trumps world. The chanting at his convention last week told a big story. I am afraid that we are living witnesses to the rise of Fascism.

[GoinDown 3669]

lol you cannot be serious. why is it that everyone who is not a liberal is automatically a fascist. This lefty alarmist theme is getting reallllly stale.

[Kubrickfan 12836]

Reductio ad Hitlerum. See Godwin's Law, which I think is the likelihood of any political discussion at some point referencing Hitler or Nazism approaches 100% the longer it goes.

This one got there really fast! (Smile)

[GoinDown 3669]

sadly but predictably , the Left's knee-jerk reaction to any and all who disagree is to scream Racist Bigot Fascist !! So much for intelligent discourse

[MightyPen 67414]

T I am very fearful for a large population of people in the U.S. - Muslims, Mexicans, Latinos, LGBTQ people and anyone that does not fit Donald Trumps world. The chanting at his convention last week told a big story. I am afraid that we are living witnesses to the rise of Fascism.

Yup. I don't think Trump himself is hateful; he's just the opportunist he's always been, and he's riding a useful wave of hate. He's an advocate of naked prejudice ("All Muslims keep out!"), an advocate of war crimes ("We've got to go after their families!", and his waterboarding thumb-up), and now he has solicited domestic espionage from a foreign power to topple his political opponent ("But I was just being sarcastic!").

 

Trump's rise represents the desperate, primal scream of the terrified white conservatives who cannot believe or accept that their traditional monopoly on social postures has eroded.

 

You're far from the only one to see the similarities with 1930s Germany. The fellow conservatives who supported Hitler's rise to legitimate political power thought he, too, would be "not so bad" and that they could control him once he was in charge. But it turned out he actually meant what he'd said.

 

No reason it can't happen again, if people let it.

[cinelli 22184]

The USA is infinitely better off than Germany was.

Nazis really came into power in the twenties. There were many competing armed groups on the right and left. Hitler was able to unite enough of the right wing Freikorps under his banner to become the most powerful man in Germany.

Remember Hitler had already tried to seize power in Bavaria in the 1923 putsch. By the end of the decade his SA was millions strong. Imagine mobs of armed right wing veterans shooting it out with communists.

America may have violent crime but it is nothing like that. America has a social safety net unlike twenties Germany. Germany was still ruined from WW1, and paying reparations. They had lost valuable territory including industrial areas in the Ruhr.

America is nowhere near that badly off.

 

There is parallel though. Hitler and Goring did manufacture a crisis over the burning of the Reichstag and the murder of a German diplomat in Paris. Hitler presented himself as the only one who could handle those. Similar to how Trump promotes fear and himself as saviour.

 

Americans are far too individualistic and love their Bill of Rights to become wiling subjects of a fascist state. Hitler argued that individuals were like property of the state and should make any sacrifice demanded of them. The Germans also liked authority wheras Americans reject it. The two viewpoints could not be more different.

[Kubrickfan 12836]

I live in the US and I am a citizen (and dearly miss my trips to Ottawa which was the basis for me joining this board many years ago).

 

I think comparisons to Hitler, Nazis, etc., rarely convince anyone of anything. I think a more apt analogy to what Trump does on occasion, as do many politicians of both parties do on a daily basis (Obama is an expert when he's not busy talking about himself) is the "straw horse" argument: where one asserts a familiar, but weaker, factually incorrect version of an argument their opponent is making, and then they easily tear down that argument (hence the reference to "straw horse"). They all do it, but its rare for a Republican to go on the offensive the way Trump is ... he is shifting paradigms which is mostly what has so many people worked up. And I do not think that is a bad thing. Sorry but no Nazis running for Prez.

 

I think the reporting on Trump is grossly exaggerated because of the mostly liberal press in the United States. i think he is a respected leader in the business world and frankly anyone who watched even a few episodes of The Apprentice will recognize that many of the points he raises in that show are truisms in business and life. I respectfully assert that's not a bad thing and many people will identify with those. I think its fair to say his public persona does not reflect the person he is and that he is very much a people person. Also he is an effective communicator whether you like his message or not.

 

I think the debates in the fall will be very important for both Trump and Clinton.

[Phaedrus 209521]

Trump is, when you get down to it, a con-man. I don't think he's the fascist that many people make him out to be any more than he's the titan of business and champion of the downtrodden that he claims to be himself.

[TorontoMelanieJolliet 4458]

i think he is a respected leader in the business world and frankly anyone who watched even a few episodes of The Apprentice will recognize that many of the points he raises in that show are truisms in business and life. I respectfully assert that's not a bad thing and many people will identify with those. I think its fair to say his public persona does not reflect the person he is and that he is very much a people person. Also he is an effective communicator whether you like his message or not.

 

 

I watched The Apprentice. Every season. He was condescending, patronizing and it was very obvious.

 

Every time a woman wanted to raise a point he would interrupt her with how she looked that night. Or how pretty, comment on her dress or her trying to be serious, or something that would say "shut up now and just look pretty. I don't want to hear about that." He always did that. And he was patronizing to Dennis Rodman, and Arsenio all the time. And other black men who where on the show. 'I love this guy' he would say. He is a misogynist and a condescending racist.

 

Maybe truisms in business, but life? uh uh. Unless you are a big phoney who really only sees others as a tool in your toolbox.

 

Can't convince me otherwise. And just because he knows how to run a business doesn't mean he can run a country. 2 different things. (and he hasn't run his business without mistakes, like bankruptcy. And he has his hand in so many cookie jars as to be desperate. Bottled water to hotels. Like all celebrities looking to stay relevent) And he is just simply too old. His mindset and beliefs have gone the way of the dinosaur, doesn't matter how many people 'support' him. It's a re-run. In black and white, with a grainy image

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

The liberal media? LOL It's a shame the media hold people to account. Oh well, at least it gives the right a label to throw around when they get uncomfortable questions.

 

The Donald, and similar regressives (those seeking simple solutions/wanting to go back to the "good ol' days"), get lots of uncomfortable questions. Hence, "liberal media".

 

Trump is a symptom of an illness. You may not want to keep using the status quo(Hilary) to treat the illness but introducing cancer(Trump) is NOT a viable option!

 

This illness is brought on by rancor, narcissism, intransigence, inequality, lack of caring/me first and many other human failings. The cure is a willingness among people to come together, help each other and dare I say it? "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

 

The answer is not Trump!

 

Who wants change? "I do! I do!"

Who wants to change? "crickets"

[Exotic Touch Danielle 31728]

If he is elected I do not see anything good coming from it ... none at all sorry! Actually pretty scarey

[cinelli 22184]

You may not want to keep using the status quo(Hilary) to treat the illness but introducing cancer(Trump) is NOT a viable option!

 

Hillary may not be perfect, or even likable, but she is the lesser of two evils.

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

Much has been said, and more could be said, about Trump's narcissism, his extensive history of litigation, lack of policy, disinterest in foreign affairs, demagoguery and so forth. Any bit of it should give one pause in considering a presidential candidate.

 

But honestly, I don't have to look any further than one issue to know I could never vote for him, and worry about his influence from a position of power.

 

He thinks it's ok to call women dogs. And pigs. Not in a moment of private venting, but in public, even political discourse.

 

It's baffling to me that this is treated so lightly, as though the words and the habits of thought they betray are just verbal idiosyncrasies of a public figure, like a nervous cough or an inability to distinguish nuculeur from nuclear.

 

It isn't. Reducing the value of women to their physical attractiveness (or lack thereof) , weight and youth, dehumanizing them with terms like pig and dog and bitch, expressing loathing and disgust at the physical reality of their femininity (bleeding from her "whatever")...none of that is in any way ok!

 

It's the sort of discourse that is prohibited here on Lyla an anonymous message board for the discussion of adult entertainment, for pity's sake, but suddenly it's legitimate in the open address of a presidential candidate?

 

I would expect that an sp would want to avoid a potential client who referred to women in such terms.

 

Misogyny is a deal-breaker. The sudden prevalence of the word "bitch"on signs, in campaign chats and on social media, which Trump gleefully encourages, should worry us. In what political campaign that you can recall has it ever been legitimate to so characterize an opponent?

 

Societal norms, public discourse, they change slowly over years and decades. For years and decades the Western world has grudgingly relinquished the tenets and trappings of an earlier, patriarchal world and its misogynistic underpinnings.

 

I find it deeply disturbing to see even an inch of that progress reversed.

 

Additional Comments:

And I'm posting this link both because it's funny, and because it's so squarely on the head. Wait...isn't the Onion supposed to be satire??

http://www.theonion.com/article/trump-sick-and-tired-mainstream-media-always-tryin-53375

[TorontoMelanieJolliet 4458]

oops..no more political discussions

[Jabba 18389]

Disappointed we can't discuss anything interesting or meaningful.

I was going to show a tear-face, but I think all the emoticons are disabled.

[waterat 20911]

We can still carry on political discourse but, as mod requested, with a level head. Hell, many discussions on here are carried on by our little heads, gentlemen!

 

..... and it's often far from level too.....

[mrrnice2 157005]

Well I`m not really sure what I missed that caused the previous three posts in this thread???

 

In addition to my initial post when starting this thread let me say that I do not believe that Trump is planning a genocide against Muslims or Mexicans but if he gets to power with his law and order agenda and starts to try to deport 11 million Mexican immigrants, does anyone believe that they will line up and go peacefully?

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Well I`m not really sure what I missed that caused the previous three posts in this thread???

 

 

The mod closed a political thread "Trump the bitch" because things got too heated, I guess. Some took the mods action to mean... no more political threads of any kind. I took it to mean... if you're going to discuss controversial topics like politics, be nice or else they will get shut down.