How Do We Make Sure Escorts Are Actually Independent/In Control Of Their Own Choices?

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Good points Kathryn, though I've meet some girls who do little more than answer the phone (outcall only, no fancy lingerie or makeup, no website etc) and they still pull in 240 an hour+ transportation. I guess it depends on the experience men are looking for, some guys like me aren't very picky ;)

 

What do you mean Genevieve? It seems women have pretty much gained equal opportunity. There are a few trades that women may not excel at for sure, just as there are a few that men might not excel at.

 

I know there is the glass ceiling debate, but it seems tough to pin down whether it is due to discrimination or life choices (raising children will take years of job experience after all). There is also the suggestion of a glass floor for women (more of a safety net, indicated by the vast numbers of homeless men vs homeless women).

 

I don't mean to complain though, I've really had quite an easy life compared to most.

Like I said it is an unconcious/irrational resentment, probably based on the generalization that the majority of men desire sex more than the majority of women.

 

Petty thoughts like that are difficult to stamp out and can breed resentment if left unchecked. Rationally there are of course certain things that women desire more than men, so there isn't really a power imbalance.

 

 

 

Not to "white night" on here but... whoa. I'm sure you will get some women responding to this, maybe even as I'm typing this, but it is still very much a patriarchal society. I'll even admit I'm part of it in the sense that I asked my wife to take my last name when we married. The day a large % of men change their name to the women's last name, I will agree about equality among the sexes.

 

That you bring up child rearing as an argument in the glass ceiling debate tells me you might need to rethink your position. Is it that women are better at child rearing, cooking, homemaking and that's where they belong? Or is it our patriarchal and cultural past that dictates this opinion? Why can't men rear children and let women run the boardrooms?

 

There are currently more examples of inequality than equality for women. Personally, I think things are changing slowly but society still has a ways to go before there is equality among the sexes. More young women than men are going to universities, are determined, have goals and know how to accomplish them. Many young men seem to have checked out in favor of video games or other alternate forms of reality. It's like they have given up and don't know how to handle a new world with women who are their equal or better. It's sad in a way but they will have to redefine their roles in a new world with women as their equals.

 

Sorry to get off topic but you did bring it up.

[0000 1845]

Not to "white night" on here but... whoa. I'm sure you will get some women responding to this, maybe even as I'm typing this, but it is still very much a patriarchal society. I'll even admit I'm part of it in the sense that I asked my wife to take my last name when we married. The day a large % of men change their name to the women's last name, I will agree about equality among the sexes.

 

That you bring up child rearing as an argument in the glass ceiling debate tells me you might need to rethink your position. Is it that women are better at child rearing, cooking, homemaking and that's where they belong? Or is it our patriarchal and cultural past that dictates this opinion? Why can't men rear children and let women run the boardrooms?

 

There are currently more examples of inequality than equality for women. Personally, I think things are changing slowly but society still has a ways to go before there is equality among the sexes. More young women than men are going to universities, are determined, have goals and know how to accomplish them. Many young men seem to have checked out in favor of video games or other alternate forms of reality. It's like they have given up and don't know how to handle a new world with women who are their equal or better. It's sad in a way but they will have to redefine their roles in a new world with women as their equals.

 

Sorry to get off topic but you did bring it up.

 

No worries mate, I'm not some sort of angry mgtow/mra neckbeard :D

You're certainly welcome to your opinions on this and I'm not going to call you a "white knight" for it.

 

I don't think there is really any difference in skill level between men and women for things like cooking and home making no.

I do personally believe that women are better at caring for young children yes, though from what I have read this levels out after the first year or two of a child's life.

 

From the info I have gathered a young child/infant who spends a certain number of hours away from the mom will experience the same symptoms as child abandonment. Women are also better equipped of course to provide the baby with the care they require (breastfeeding for example).

 

No I don't believe that a woman's place is in the kitchen :D

I believe women have gained equal opportunity as far as I'm aware and I believe that is the way it should be.

Just because I believe a woman may be better at raising a child for the first year or two doesn't mean I am against freedom of choice.

 

Of course this swings both ways. I do believe that men are better equipped (in general) to handle certain trades where physical strength/body mass is a priority.

It's a biological reality that we can't ignore. If I was caught in a burning building for example, I would prefer that someone with enough physical strength to pull me out of there was coming to my rescue.

 

Now that doesn't mean that women shouldn't be allowed to be firefighters, some women are physically more capable than the average man for sure. The issue arises when the physical requirements are lowered, or rather a separate set of physical requirements is introduced based on gender.

We are seeing this in other areas as well, such as the armed forces.

 

I don't personally believe in marriage myself, so I can't comment on it too much. Seeing as I would prefer to go with the term "life partner" and we would both keep our family names I suppose I would fall under what you are pushing for. I personally believe this falls under freedom of choice though, rather than a form of oppression.

 

I can certainly see a few examples where equality could improve, though I wouldn't put them on the same severity level as equality issues of the past.

I would also say that as we push for equality we are seeing some issues that affect men surfacing that have been somewhat ignored in the past.

 

I do have to laugh at some issues that people are actually debating, like the right for a woman to bare her breasts in public. I just don't even see why this is an issue. If a woman wants pull her boobs out in public who exactly is she hurting?

 

So I guess you could say my current goals trend more towards a push for better rights and freedoms for both sexes. I don't know what you would call that? Humanism?

 

In any case I would like to hear more from you Steve. What issues in particular facing women would you like to see improved? What can we do to get there? Do you think that men are too privileged to be facing difficulties of their own in certain areas of equality?

 

Additional Comments:

Don't even get me started on university these days, that's a whole other kettle of worms ;D

 

I think people in general are really uncertain of the future, and I believe there is a lot more "filler" courses available in university these days that don't really give people the tools to succeed in the real world.

 

That and the world economies seem to be in decline. Back in my folks day you worked hard, got a college diploma, university degree or trade cert, and you had a reasonable chance of success, it was an investment.

 

These days the future is so uncertain that it's more of a 50000$ gamble.

There are some practical degrees that are a safe bet of course, psychology, healthcare/doctor, and a few other fields. Even if you just get a cert in one of the more stable fields, you're a lot better off than you are with many of the university degrees.

 

For example, I'd train to become a paramedic, or a police officer, long before I'd drop the big bucks for a gender studies degree ;)

 

Personally I have taken the route of utilizing excellent free training that is available to me (not subsidized by the government), to complete my CompTIA technology certs, A+, Network+, and Security+ will set me up for a 50000$+ a year salary in the IT field, for ~1500$ of monetary investment.

 

If you're smart, you can still work the crumbling system to your advantage rather than checking out and binging on videogames, but you need to think outside the box these days for sure, university just isn't the guarantee that it used to be.

 

I have seen a lot of ladies in the biz with particular university degrees. It often seems as though they realized that they could make a lot more money doing escort work than their university degree would provide, if they were even able to find work that is.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

I appreciate the questions but it's a complex topic, oooo, and I wouldn't say I have any better insight into it than lots of others.

 

If you want to change anything you first have to change how you perceive something. Are you looking at it from any sort of bias? You use the example of physical strength as a possible explanation for inequality to exist within certain occupations. Physical strength is becoming less of an issue as technology progresses. We no longer hunt for our food, fight wars with spears or fight fires with buckets of water. Technology allows men to do more so why stop with just accommodating strong men? For that matter, why limit women, or men, by explaining why something can't be done? Find a solution, not a problem. I guess that's one of the first steps to change, imagining what's possible, not what's impossible..

 

You last paragraph mentioned "ladies in the biz you've met" with certain uni degrees and how it seems escorting is more attractive financially. Respectfully, that's a small sample to make a conclusion. It reminds me of people who think there is no way Trimp could possibly win the US election. They base this on the fact that absolutely no one in their yoga class or drum circle are voting for the guy! Lol. It's a big world out there. We shouldn't judge it based on our limited perspectives.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

[Guest]

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Blanket statements are used to cover large masses so we do not have to inspect individuals on an individual bases. Let's even say if 45% (yes, I'm pulling a number out of my ass) of the available companions are forced into this lifestyle. It automatically generates the, well, they are all victims mentality. Hence, why we keep on seeing the pimp topic being brought up time and time again. What I find funny is the special feminist bow that this is all tied up in. As this thread almost seems to say: it is bad enough to be a companion, and worse to be a woman because we are the weaker sex, no? We get everything handed to us because we don't have an extended muscle between our legs and because men have a basic instinct for sex that women do not? I think that is giving us women way to much power over you and no wonder you're resentful. Also, if you are right, there's an even larger need for male companions to help guide the "unsatisfied" women of this world. I think more and more, you will see the male escort scene opening up, as things become more liberal. Which can translate to some major $$$ for some lucky guys. For many men and women, it is the companionship itself that they seek out and anything else is on the bottom of the totem pole.

 

I would say that ladies of this day and age are under a tremendous amount of stress. We are expected to do it all. Be the mother, the bread runner, the friend, and the list goes on and on. I think that putting women in a box is outdated and has been proven unsuccessful.

 

Women have had many movements through the years. One of the major one's is being able to vote. We have fought diligently to stop domestic abuse, which is still a problem and many battles men have not had to fight. Granted, some men are experiencing a hard time with the liberties women have. Maybe it's harder to get the job now because there's more competition out there. Dare I say, I see no harm in hiring a woman if she is more qualified than a man. I read somewhere, recently, that it is still hard for women to get paid the same amount as men do and if that is true, why? This is why comments about women getting everything handed to them is so inaccurate.

 

I think stereotypes and buying into all kinds of propaganda will weigh anyone down from seeing the true reality. Men can't be stay at home Dads? Why because they don't multitask as much as women, lame. Women can't be firefighters because they are not as strong as men, old world thinking, this has already been done. Add any blanket statement and I'm sure someone can discredit it, as it may apply to many, it doesn't apply to all and may not apply to anyone. What I see when blanket statements are being made is that certain people do not want to see things as they are. If you are not getting the job, work harder, take refresher courses, be on top of your game and keep going. It's because of X, Y, and Z will only keep you stuck.

 

As far as university, etc, the market is changing, why shouldn't school change with it? Why can't a lady have a career and be a companion? Variety is king for us too. Nothing wrong with having a stable income along with the excitement and thrill that companionship brings. The natural ebb and flow of companionship means a lot of money one week and very little to none the next. We can break down the educational system and how it's flawed and pushing ladies into being companions. However, those who see green when they come into this business, quickly learn, that like anything else, substance is what brings in the bacon.

 

Bringing it back to companionship. Even outcalls can cost money. For example: you have your driver fee, your phone costs, lingerie costs, condoms, etc, etc. If you have your own vehicle, well, wear and tear, gas, ect. I'd say that most companions take care of themselves and show up looking their best. As with any business, it is easy to miss the hidden costs of running things if you do not have hands on experience with it.

 

Regent was right. Always respect a ladies protocol. To simplify this all, you don't, you don't get a date. I have said this a million times but...we all have our reasons for running our business the way we do. The way companions run their business is as individual as the companion themselves. Why because we are all kinds of different people, with different things in our lives. Thank God for variety, no? You can jump to conclusions, thinking that a women is managed which really means being pimped. Or you can think to yourself, oh, she works, goes to school, and can't take my call and answer questions about my preferences in front of her dean, employer etc. I'll follow her instructions and that way we can both be happy. Yes, there's a dark side to this industry, however, having a list of demands isn't going to make things better. You might find yourself with a small selection of girls to choose from with that attitude and maybe the types you don't want to see, due to your initial concerns. As most independents will simply ignore emails, or demands that don't follow their individual protocol.

[0000 1845]

Of course technology narrows the gap, but it is a gradual trend, not a complete solution.

 

Escorts with university degrees is just one example. If you would like to read more about the situation for university graduates in all areas of study, search for terms like unemployment rate, and overqualification.

 

The unemployment rate for university grads seems like a minor issue until you factor in the number of people working unskilled jobs with technically advanced degrees. The fact is Universities do not need to answer to a job market, and they do not need to guarantee employment in your desired field. University is all to often a place for those who do not desire the burden of thinking for themselves. It wasn't always that way.

[Guest]

Having just gotten out of the job hunt field. I can tell you that employers are having more expectations as well. I have seen companies have three week training courses. Now, this is great if you can travel to their headquarters or main hub offices where they provide the training. Expectations are everywhere and the patience for actual hands on training seems to be lacking in some corporations.

 

So you must have a degree in the field of work and with some corporations, pass their training sessions too. The good thing is that usually the training sessions are free, however, you will pay for traveling costs, etc. Now, I do like the idea of the training sessions, as I like to know what I'm getting into. A lot better than being thrown to someone who wants to give you one or two days of half hearted training, so that they can take off on vacation. Your forced to poke at things blind, hope for the best and if your lucky, piss every other worker around you off. I don't see this training as them thinking for me. I see it as them informing me and giving me everything I need to do my job correctly. However, I'd like to see more locations for the three week training sessions.

 

I'm interested to see if anyone has more ideas about university. As I have limited knowledge about this and I believe that there are some wonderful teachers out there helping to improve the education system.

[0000 1845]

Hello Peachy, I somehow missed your 1st response above before I posted my own response to Steve.

 

I hope it isn't a suggestion that I am making blanket statements, as I have worded my responses to purposefully avoid doing so.

As I have said, women can certainly be firefighters as long as they meet the qualifications, and stay at home Dads are perfectly valid though perhaps not for the first year or so due to basic biological reasons that I covered in my last post.

 

I do believe that many men have a higher sex drive yes, but I also believe that many women have a higher drive to seek emotional intimacy, and male escorts are becoming more commonplace to fill this role.

This is why I have said my resentment is irrational, and can be squashed with some critical thinking.

 

I don't think you have an accurate idea of some of the issues facing men, but I certainly can't blame you for this, as it is so rarely talked about outside of the mra community.

 

If you have an interest in reading more about this you could have a look at the avoiceformen website/forum. Though keep in mind there are some with fairly radical ideas there just as there are some radical feminists out there.

 

From a young age feminism has been a part of my life, hammered into my head in the modern world. It's difficult to be ignorant on the issues facing women when we hear about them every day of our lives.

 

Of course I am well aware of the everyday issues that women face, that we don't generally need to contend with as men, and I'm right there with you in making the world a better place for women.

 

On the topic of the wage gap you may have read about, it is really a tricky subject. If a man and a woman work the same job, and same hours, with the same experience, it would be entirely illegal to pay them differing wages, and I don't think any right minded company owner would want to deal with the $%#t storm that would arise.

 

The wage gap becomes evident when we filter out the hours worked, career choice, and experience of men and women.

There are more men working in higher paying fields like the sciences and medical fields, men tend to work longer hours and take less time off (such as maternity leave).

 

Of course we can question why there aren't as many women working in high salary career fields, but it is certainly a difficult question and requires a much more in depth solution than simply paying women more money for the same job.

 

I think's that's it from me for now. Again please understand that I am not trying to make blanket statements here, there is always room for exceptions to the general rule/there is always a female firefighter that is more physically fit than the average man ;)

 

The reality is feminism has pushed for and succeeded in bringing about a separate set of requirements for women in various fields/career choices. We are also seeing programs set up, with government funding to get more women into "this or that" regardless of individual merit. The feminist movement only becomes a problem when it pushes for equality of outcome for women and men rather than equality of opportunity and human rights.

[Guest]

I'm for equality for all no matter the gender, color of skin, or sexual orientation. As a modern day hippie, I believe in fairness for all. Unfortunately, the world we live in is not all lollipops and sunshine and yes there's predictors and victims out there. We can go back in forth about feminism, equality and the unbalance of the two. I do believe that men suffer and feel just as much as women. I don't believe in men being abused, just as much as women, men getting paid less, and men being treated unfairly. The only way we are going to achieve true balance is by moving past the stereotyping and generalizations. Looking at situations and people as individual as they are. It's human nature to make assumptions about whatever, it's a protection mechanism. However, that should encourage us to dig a little deeper into a situation instead of writing something off. Well, if it truly matters to you, anyway.

 

Now, I do think that some blanket statements, along with a list of requirements for companions were made. That's what concerns me as an independent. I constantly have to reinstate my boundaries all the time, due to individuals who disagree because of this, that, or the other. I'm forced to be firm and have to ban or suspend individuals who do not respect my protocols. The point I want to hit home is that each companion runs their business in the manner that best suites them. As others have pointed out, some of the requirements don't work for companions for various reasons. This does not mean that if a companion does not meet your requirements, she is managed, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Some of us ladies enjoy getting to know our clients before meeting. This helps to create an atmosphere and adds to the date. kind of meeting a long lost friend. If the companion doesn't use the phone for communication, they will have other means of contact information available. Instead of going "in"as an inspector, how about just getting to know who you are interested in. This is less intrusive and isn't a demanding approach.

 

An email that starts off with:

 

Hey, this is Paul.

 

I'm a man in my thirties, I like like run, cook and dance. I'm looking to meet you as (insert whatever here) stood out for me. What I'd really like is to be with a lady who will enjoy her time with me. I like being trampled and need someone who feels comfortable with my particular fetish. (I commented to your last post, lol). Yadda, etc, whatever.

 

Bye for now.

Paul

 

and add whatever you'd like. You'll probably get a nice response and a feel for what the ladies like. This is like dating in the sense that you're not going to connect to everyone you meet. Communication and having an open mind is a good start. Hopefully, you can meet a couple of women you enjoy being with or want to repeat with. There's nothing wrong with trusting your gut, don't follow through with the date if something's up. However, maybe rethink the list of requirements, as there has already been many example to why they may not work.

[0000 1845]

Well, I'm not saying these precautions are perfect. There will be people who don't meet these guidelines that are perfectly independent. They are really just a starting point to reduce the risk.

 

Many people have certainly pointed out that a provider could be at odds with all of those guidelines and be independent and I won't argue that.

 

If you have an argument against these guidelines and believe they will not reduce the risk then I'm all ears, but I don't think that's the case.

It's all situational really, there is a woman I've met with many times from Backpage that I would never think about cutting ties with. She doesn't meet more than 2-3 of my guidelines but she has reassured me of her autonomy during our intimate conversations.

 

The title was certainly a little silly of me though. I was hoping for a magic bullet but guaranteeing anything in life doesn't really happen.

[fortunateone 156618]

 

1) Then she'll probably miss my call, and I'll spend my time with the other girl who does answer the phone. Unfortunate for those who have genuine reasons to not pick up the phone, but I'm more concerned about protecting those who don't have a choice in this matter than I am about protecting the income of an escort who isn't available to take my call.

 

.

 

 

You know originally i thought you meant that if someone didn't use the phone, as in that they were only email/texting, that was your concern. But here it seems that you will penalize them if they are, as mentioned busy with another client, not taking appts, sleeping, or on vacation when you call, it will be considered the same thing as being coerced. Which doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I am available, in theory, 9am to 9pm 7 days a week. In reality, I go to the bank, i have errands, i take the afternoon off, and of course, i am in appts. During any and all of those times i am not answering the phone. And if someone doesn't call me back, or leave a message to be called back, then i consider them to not be that interested, and I am the one moving on to someone who doesn't just give up after one attempt.

 

Perhaps also what has only been lightly touched upon is the assumption that all back page advertisers are forced, coerced and/or under threat. Many sps you see here with long histories, websites, using phone conversations, and/or requiring references do use backpage as well.

 

The other thing that concerns me is the automatic assumption that someone who works via an agency or perhaps in a spa is not independent, or is in fact forced. Just because someone chooses to not deal with the nitty gritty business decisions doesn't mean they are being forced or pushed around either. For some it is another level of security and privacy, and insurance that they won't be contacted directly when they are not available, meaning their off time is their own time.

 

Additional Comments:

Interested to know more about the verification process here on Lyla. I didn't put a lot of faith in verification in the past but maybe there is something I missed.

 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to take this personally Helena, I'm sure there are plenty of men who would do just the same as I did in the past and see providers without any of my criteria.

 

I view this the same as I view any business, if a business provides a phone number and they pick up the phone then I feel better about dealing with them.

 

As I said, the very fact you are posting actively would allay any of my concerns, although It doesn't seem like we would get along very well in any case.

 

I think you should be more concerned if, every time you call, someone is answering the phone. The odds of the sp never being busy in another call or otherwise is pretty low. At some points you have to reach voice mail, even if all she is doing is her laundry and there is no service in the elevator.

 

It's when no matter what time or how often you call, 'she' answers the phone, every single time, like she's got nothing else on the go?

 

Additional Comments:

Awwww don't be sad and resentful, poor little thing. Us women dominate in escorting, you guys have the rest...Literally.

 

 

Yes.

 

Like the ability to be hired onto a construction site in the first place, with that $30 bucks an hour x 40 hours and overtime a week.

 

These hourly wages are rarely, if ever, open and available to women.

 

Personally, i have very little sympathy for how hard it must be to be able to pay for anything you want when so many women are lining up at food banks to help make ends meet.

 

Now a very very small percentage of women are able to surpass the minimum wage prison, by being an escort, so they are also able to pay for anything they want, but for some reason have to feel guilty for that?

 

Nope, never cared.

 

Also, i am phone call only. To some this is a bizarre and horrible idea, to the extent that they think they can push that policy by sending texts (due to not reading the part in the ad, beside the phone number, saying no texts), or emails. Always an excuse with the emails, like 'i know you said no emails, but' with the carrot/stick and subtle threat of 'ok, your loss' because i refuse to book an appt or give out address info in writing. sue me.

 

Sps today don't sit at home with landlines, and they are technologically more advanced than i am, and literally, in their opinion, no one they know has phone conversations any more, it's all texts. Somehow writing down all this info about b b b js and rates and addresses/locations on a glowing screen that can be read by anyone pretty much is, in their minds, more discreet. You may have a hard time, as I do, finding many who will have a phone conversation first. some of them might eventually have a phone conversation, but will only allow text and emails first contact. And usually this is because they are independent, and because they are doing all their own calls, emails/texts by themselves, and that it takes time to go thru them all, and get back to people.

[0000 1845]

You know originally i thought you meant that if someone didn't use the phone, as in that they were only email/texting, that was your concern. But here it seems that you will penalize them if they are, as mentioned busy with another client, not taking appts, sleeping, or on vacation when you call, it will be considered the same thing as being coerced. Which doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I am available, in theory, 9am to 9pm 7 days a week. In reality, I go to the bank, i have errands, i take the afternoon off, and of course, i am in appts. During any and all of those times i am not answering the phone. And if someone doesn't call me back, or leave a message to be called back, then i consider them to not be that interested, and I am the one moving on to someone who doesn't just give up after one attempt.

 

Perhaps also what has only been lightly touched upon is the assumption that all back page advertisers are forced, coerced and/or under threat. Many sps you see here with long histories, websites, using phone conversations, and/or requiring references do use backpage as well.

 

The other thing that concerns me is the automatic assumption that someone who works via an agency or perhaps in a spa is not independent, or is in fact forced. Just because someone chooses to not deal with the nitty gritty business decisions doesn't mean they are being forced or pushed around either. For some it is another level of security and privacy, and insurance that they won't be contacted directly when they are not available, meaning their off time is their own time.

 

Additional Comments:

 

 

I think you should be more concerned if, every time you call, someone is answering the phone. The odds of the sp never being busy in another call or otherwise is pretty low. At some points you have to reach voice mail, even if all she is doing is her laundry and there is no service in the elevator.

 

It's when no matter what time or how often you call, 'she' answers the phone, every single time, like she's got nothing else on the go?

 

Additional Comments:

 

 

 

Yes.

 

Like the ability to be hired onto a construction site in the first place, with that $30 bucks an hour x 40 hours and overtime a week.

 

These hourly wages are rarely, if ever, open and available to women.

 

Personally, i have very little sympathy for how hard it must be to be able to pay for anything you want when so many women are lining up at food banks to help make ends meet.

 

Now a very very small percentage of women are able to surpass the minimum wage prison, and to also be able to pay for anything they want, but for some reason have to feel guilty for that?

 

Nope, never cared.

 

Alright, I've been as patient as I can but this is getting kind of silly ;)

I already gave my reasons for preferring phone conversations in one of my previous posts but that's beside the point here.

 

Am I really coming off as so unreasonable that we have to go over the same thing again and again here?

Of course I would leave a voicemail and wait a reasonable amount of time for the sp to get back to me. I'd be okay with emailing back and forth as well.

 

I'd prefer not to have texting as my only means of contact, but again that is just my preference and it depends on how sketchy the general situation is in any case.

 

I have already explained many times that I am not under any "automatic assumptions" that all bp girls are in a bad situation, I'm simply taking reasonable precautions wherever possible to minimize the chance of taking advantage of the small % of providers who may be in a bad situation.

 

I don't really know how to respond to your last bit other than with a dose of reality: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/71-222-x/2008001/sectionb/b-unemployment-chomage-eng.htm

I think we've already covered the wage gap and the effect of occupational preference, hours worked, experience, etc.

 

Of course it is less likely for women to be hired onto construction sites unless machinery can do all the heavy lifting. Availability of employment is not a gendered issue, some opportunities are more easily available to men and some are more easily available to women.

 

I wasn't really looking for sympathy there, I was just pointing out the reality that it isn't a cakewalk for a lot of men any more than it is for many women. Many folks here have raised very valid points regarding the overhead costs of escorting that I hadn't considered. There are a lot more men on the street than women for what it's worth, where are you getting your information?

 

If you honestly think that it would be better to work 50-60 hours per week at 30$ per hour in grueling physical labor, rather than your current occupation, then by all means go for it ;) People in construction don't normally work 40 hour weeks, it's all in or go home.

I'm not saying it's not an opportunity to make good money, but that's only if you can actually survive.

Most construction workers also pay taxes as well, which may even the playing field slightly.

 

No I certainly don't deserve any sympathy, I have more money than I would ever need and excellent career opportunities in my field of choice. Look on the bright side though, I'm happy to share it with the beautiful ladies of lyla :D

[fortunateone 156618]

OK, to add insult to injury, now you are accusing sps of not ever paying taxes too? woosh, where will it all end? lol

 

0000, like many escorts, i work 7 days a week 12 hours a day. For sps, even coming to sites like this is work, whether others consider it to be or not. pms, ads updates, checking trends, industry news, or networking with clients and/or other sps, are all things that sps would not be doing if they were not working. We often have friends and families taking a back seat to appts and schedules. We don't just put up an ad at noon, get 5 calls back to back and then take off for the rest of the day, or sleeping in and laying about in bed waiting for the next 300 bucks. (not saying it wouldn't be great, just saying that's not why we call it work)

 

I don't believe i mentioned that construction work was a soft job, just that to use a 30 buck an hour example such as that one as a 'reason' is problematic. As you also see, it is unlikely 30 buck an hour jobs, regardless of what they are, are open and available to women regardless of their background and experience. However a recent 18 year old male grad or high school drop out can get that work no problem. And he may also get hurt on the job due to inexperience, and end up unable to work at all the rest of his life.

 

Sometime work related injuries happen to women. Some of those women end up as sex workers because they do not get a big payout or compensation with disability that is sufficient to raise a family or pursue education.

 

when the discussion is about how unfair life is, please don't expect women of all people to not speak up about anything that might be misleading. I also don't believe i suggested that women are the majority of homeless people, i simply referred to them as the majority of poor people. Single moms are raising families more often than not on part time work and zero $$ support from the downtrodden 30 buck an hour dudes, so let's not imply that men are not better off than women straight across the board, including the gender wage gap.

 

sorry but we are all open to other opinions and comments here, you are new here but not new to forums? On this one, we speak up even when someone else might think the case is closed lol

[0000 1845]

OK, to add insult to injury, now you are accusing sps of not ever paying taxes too? woosh, where will it all end? lol

 

0000, like many escorts, i work 7 days a week 12 hours a day. For sps, even coming to sites like this is work, whether others consider it to be or not. pms, ads updates, checking trends, industry news, or networking with clients and/or other sps, are all things that sps would not be doing if they were not working. We often have friends and families taking a back seat to appts and schedules. We don't just put up an ad at noon, get 5 calls back to back and then take off for the rest of the day, or sleeping in and laying about in bed waiting for the next 300 bucks. (not saying it wouldn't be great, just saying that's not why we call it work)

 

I don't believe i mentioned that construction work was a soft job, just that to use a 30 buck an hour example such as that one as a 'reason' is problematic. As you also see, it is unlikely 30 buck an hour jobs, regardless of what they are, are open and available to women regardless of their background and experience. However a recent 18 year old male grad or high school drop out can get that work no problem. And he may also get hurt on the job due to inexperience, and end up unable to work at all the rest of his life.

 

Sometime work related injuries happen to women. Some of those women end up as sex workers because they do not get a big payout or compensation with disability that is sufficient to raise a family or pursue education.

 

when the discussion is about how unfair life is, please don't expect women of all people to not speak up about anything that might be misleading. I also don't believe i suggested that women are the majority of homeless people, i simply referred to them as the majority of poor people. Single moms are raising families more often than not on part time work and zero $$ support from the downtrodden 30 buck an hour dudes, so let's not imply that men are not better off than women straight across the board, including the gender wage gap.

 

sorry but we are all open to other opinions and comments here, you are new here but not new to forums? On this one, we speak up even when someone else might think the case is closed lol

 

You should stop trying to twist my words, I leave them open to interpretation for a reason. I stated that construction workers pay taxes, I did not state that all sp's do not pay taxes.

I do believe that a higher percentage of construction workers pay taxes than escorts/sp's, but who knows? Perhaps there is a lot of tax evasion/under the table pay in the construction work.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with this? Do you enjoy your work? Personally I would enjoy networking with people for my career, though my field is of course different from your own. I'm sure there is some guy out there who enjoys backbreaking manual labor, but I would think they might be few and far between?

 

30$ an hour for manual labor is actually a bit higher up the payscale. My dad worked manual labor jobs all his life and topped out ~18$ an hour. A friend of mine is taking the same route and has been at 15$ an hour for 1 year.

I was using the 30$ and hour as an example of what a man in a manual labor job could aspire to over a lengthy career, even with a low iq/lack of mental skills.

 

You are correct, men do get hurt on the job more often than women, although escorting can be a fairly dangerous trade as well, and probably isn't factored into those statistics.

I'm not sure how men getting hurt on the job is related to your opinion that men have an easier life than women though?

 

In any case I am a perfectly reasonable/rational person. I've linked some stats to indicate that life isn't a cakewalk for men in regards to finding employment and staying off the streets.

I welcome any information/facts you would like to provide in regards to inequity of pay between men and women regardless of occupational choice, hours worked, etc.

 

I'm afraid I'm not exactly bursting with sympathy for single moms in general. I don't even know how many different forms of birth control women have access to these days, not to mention the choice to abort, and the choice to give up the baby for adoption without any repercussions.

 

Men have condoms, that's about it, and 10% of men have reported that the condom failure rate in birth control may not necessarily be due to proper use and/or condom quality control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

 

They are working on bc for men but currently if you want any guarantees you need to get the snip (which I probably will in the near future). Men have 0 say in whether or not abortion happens.

 

Once the baby is born, men can't just walk away from the responsibility in any legal way (aside from fleeing the country).

It is entirely the woman's choice whether adoption happens or not, and if she keeps the baby, the man pays, simple as that.

 

There are many men who believe they should either have a say in whether or not a child is aborted or they should be able to walk away if they are in disagreement with the mother.

 

I'm not really sure where I stand on it, but I don't agree with abortion and I don't think there is any perfect solution for both parties involved. I honestly would prefer a solution that doesn't take away the privileged position of women in this regard just to even the playing field, better to strive for improved rights for men and women.

 

I do think the "my body, my choice" thing has gone a bit to far. If you let a man into your body and the result is a child, that is no longer just a part of your body. The child is a creation of both individuals, and the laws should reflect that in my opinion.

 

Anyway, don't want to go on too long with this. I'm a fact based lifeform :D If you want to convince me of something you'll need to hit be with some juicy factual information. Otherwise they are nice opinions, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one ;)

[capitalCforcougar 16766]

currrrrious to know how this went from wondering how to ensure someone's safety..... to a p1ssing match that for some reason includes construction workers and veers waaaay off into abortion lol

...play nice children.. or I won't spank either one of you <wink>

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

 

They are working on bc for men but currently if you want any guarantees you need to get the snip (which I probably will in the near future).

 

Only logical thing I've heard you say. Please make sure you do.

[0000 1845]

Only logical thing I've heard you say. Please make sure you do.

 

^Cute

 

You're confused , logic is based on facts. Just because you are emotionally triggered doesn't indicate what I have written isn't logical ;)

 

Not surprising really, very few women will admit to being priveledged in certain areas of life.

Even fewer will take it well, the claws always seem to come out :D

[capitalCforcougar 16766]

^Cute

You're confused , logic is based on facts. Just because you are emotionally triggered doesn't mean it isn't logical ;)

Not surprising really, very few women will admit to being priveledged in certain areas of life.

 

....wow buddy... you have a desire to be swatted? ;)

 

I happen to be one (female) who honestly believes that the single largest minority in the entire universe.. is likely to be a white single male between the ages of 28 and 45...... and fully recognise the 'privileges' bestowed upon *some* groups of female (myself NOT being one of them... and believe me, I have been studying/learning/reading extensively on the subject the last few years...

 

I also am aware there are people who only see the side of the coin they desire to see.... shame really... but also a fact ;)

 

 

 

and again.. how did this go from 'ensuring someone being in control of their own situation/choices' in this industry to this bizarre p1ssing match?

[0000 1845]

....wow buddy... you have a desire to be swatted? ;)

 

I happen to be one (female) who honestly believes that the single largest minority in the entire universe.. is likely to be a white single male between the ages of 28 and 45...... and fully recognise the 'privileges' bestowed upon *some* groups of female (myself NOT being one of them... and believe me, I have been studying/learning/reading extensively on the subject the last few years...

 

I also am aware there are people who only see the side of the coin they desire to see.... shame really... but also a fact ;)

 

 

 

and again.. how did this go from 'ensuring someone being in control of their own situation/choices' in this industry to this bizarre p1ssing match?

 

You've been entirely fair in this discussion, and that sincerely wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Meaghan for her snarky comment.

 

Regardless, this has become little more than a dogpile match rather than a discussion. You can't have a discussion when 90% of the people taking part are not willing to click on a few links to get the facts, and are all too happy to provide snarky comments in lieu of facts to back their own statements.

^Again this certainly isn't directed at you CapitalC, nor others who took part in the discussion reasonably early on.

 

This thread was probably a mistake in general, why bother empathizing with people if this is the kind of crap I'm going to get for it. Might as well go back to texting bp girls available 24/7 and skip all the games. According to one poster the signs of trafficking are always fairly obvious anyways, so surely I won't miss them when thinking with the wrong head right?

 

It's really amazing to me that society condemns a practice by law and yet some have the audacity to suggest that johns don't have any responsibility for their involvement with the (admittedly small) % of victims. Perhaps I'll just give up on paying for "companionship" altogether, better to put the work into something real.

 

I believe the discussion took a turn after Genevieve's sarcastic comment on page 3 (devoid of factual information), then Steve jumped in to play the (in his own words) "white knight" (again without any facts, links, or info of any kind to back his points). By the time Fortunateone jumped on the bandwagon with the same crap that I had already explained, I had thoroughly lost my patience.

Fortunate then brought up the impoverished single mom argument, so I responded to it.

There's the recap, just for you CapitalC ;)

 

Perhaps I should just hold my tongue in the future, I'm starting to wonder if engaging in these "discussions" is ever worth the trouble.

[Guest]

Click here for an interesting read.

 

Click here for more

 

The topics being brought up in this thread can not be responded to in a simple manner as they are so integrated with history, social classes, and how our modern day living has evolved.

 

I'm not going to comment about the remarks themselves. However, I will again point out that each individual has a unique situation, with a unique personality and an unique skill set. We can't judge a situation until we break down what's really going on. Most of us are doing the best with what we have at the present moment. Working with the cards that we are dealt with.

 

As far as dealing with pimps the closest I have come to a real pimp is some of the clients themselves. The one's who think they can tell me how to run my own business and what I can to for them, even though it's clearly stated that I do not do, X, Y, and Z. The one's that try to talk down to me and try treating me unfairly. This will end with them either never seeing me or not seeing me again.

 

We talk about how we want to get companionship decriminalized. However, I do not see that happening if people in our own community look at us as victims. Yes, there are victims, however, it has been debated that there was already laws set in place against trafficking, abuse and the dockets, the bill C36 stands on.

 

There's already quite a bit about bill C36 and debates that have already taken place.

 

Click here for one of the many threads about this.

 

Anyways, I think it's time I bow out.

 

[0000 1845]

Click here for an interesting read.

 

Click here for more

 

The topics being brought up in this thread can not be responded to in a simple manner as they are so integrated with history, social classes, and how our modern day living has evolved.

 

I'm not going to comment about the remarks themselves. However, I will again point out that each individual has a unique situation, with a unique personality and an unique skill set. We can't judge a situation until we break down what's really going on. Most of us are doing the best with what we have at the present moment. Working with the cards that we are dealt with.

 

As far as dealing with pimps the closest I have come to a real pimp is some of the clients themselves. The one's who think they can tell me how to run my own business and what I can to for them, even though it's clearly stated that I do not do, X, Y, and Z.

 

We talk about how we want to get companionship decriminalized. However, I do not see that happening if people in our own community look at us as victims. Yes, there are victims, however, it has been debated that there was already laws set in place against trafficking, abuse and the dockets, the bill C36 stands on.

 

There's already quite a bit about bill C36 and debates that have already taken place.

 

Click here for one of the many threads about this.

 

Anyways, I think it's time I bow out.

 

 

Respectfully, while your words are always beautifully written, I always come away confused after reading them.

 

Without generalizations (not the ill founded type in your link) how could we find solutions to problems effecting large groups of people?

 

We know that the majority of sex workers are not victims of trafficking, and a John unfortunately only has the tools available to filter out some perfectly consenting adults with the victims.

 

In other words I can't read minds/peer into a woman's soul and determine her situation, but the tools I have available to me do effectively decrease the possibility of encountering someone who doesn't want to be there, far more than "listening to your gut".

 

Men don't "listen to their gut" when they are horny, they think with their dicks (yes this is a generalization, one that wholeheartedly applies to me :D ).

I respectfully disagree that not getting involved in a discussion for fear of generalizing is a good thing, but it's certainly getting you into a lot less trouble than I'm getting into for sure ;)

 

Of course I view this trade similarly to other trades from a big picture view. The clothing we wear, shipped in from other impoverished countries likely generates far more victims of abuse and trafficking than 1st world escorting. I can't assume myself to be above the law though, I need to assume that there is reasoning behind every law, and better understand the driving force behind it. It is a very rare case that I can completely ignore a law without occasionally reconsidering the consequences of doing so. For all I know imported clothing from 3rd world countries could become illegal in the very near future.

[capitalCforcougar 16766]

You've been entirely fair in this discussion, and that sincerely wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Meaghan for her snarky comment.

 

Regardless, this has become little more than a dogpile match rather than a discussion. You can't have a discussion when 90% of the people taking part are not willing to click on a few links to get the facts, and are all too happy to provide snarky comments in lieu of facts to back their own statements.

^Again this certainly isn't direct at you CapitalC, nor others who took part in the discussion reasonably early on.

 

This thread was probably a mistake in general, why bother empathizing with people if this is the kind of crap I'm going to get for it. Might as well go back to texting bp girls available 24/7 and skip all the games. According to one poster the signs of trafficking are always fairly obvious anyways, so surely I won't miss them when thinking with the wrong head right?

 

It's really amazing to me that society condemns a practice by law and yet some have the audacity to suggest that johns don't have any responsibility for their involvement with the (admittedly small) % of victims. Perhaps I'll just give up on paying for "companionship" altogether, better to put the work into something real.

I believe the discussion took a turn after Genevieve's sarcastic comment on page 3 (devoid of factual information), then Steve jumped in to play the (in his own words) "white knight" (again without any facts, links, or info of any kind to back his points). By the time Fortunateone jumped on the bandwagon with the same crap that I had already explained, I had thoroughly lost my patience.

Fortunate then brought up the impoverished single mom argument, so I responded to it.

There's the recap, just for you CapitalC ;)

Perhaps I should just hold my tongue in the future, I'm starting to wonder if engaging in these "discussions" is ever worth the trouble.

 

hehe.. I am always an outspoken 'devil's advocate'... and firmly believe there is *never* anything wrong with voicing your own opinion... I just think this got out of hand very early on... people get too much interested in 'soap-boxing' rather than stick to a topic.. which tends to spoil things..

 

There have been so many things in my crazy life that I have experienced (in this industry in parrrrrticular actually) but won't go into detail with, that make me feel I am one who has a good idea of some of the things that *could* be construed as 'unsafe'.. which was why I responded in the first place ;)

I have seen women shot (for not making enough money).. I have heard threats (from useless t1ts who'd rather hurt a woman than get a job of their own.. women (and a few men) forced into drug addictions in order to make them compliant.. (for same stupid reasons).. and am very glad/fortunate, that I have not once in my life, had to endure that on a personal level .... (came close to be honest.. but thankfully I have always also had very sharp clawz hehe ;)

 

 

The responsibility a john has toward this industry, is fairly simple.. I think, anyway.... and still far easier for a client to 'screen'/be informed than the provider..

 

- watch the sites you use and the people who are on them (sketchy or no..?)

- inform yourself as to signs of abuse (drugs, physical, mental)

- use reasonable ways to determine whether something is for you or not (the phone thing really was strange hehe I rarely am on hand to answer a call.. just sayin...)

- go with whatever head actually makes the best decision and is something you are comfortable with ;)

 

.... as one who has continually ruffled feathers on this site (but lately, have been behaving myself hehe) you do not, and should not have to feel 'bad' about your own opinion/actions... but just be prepared for a whole lot of others to do the same ... no matter how odd they may/not be ;) after all, if we all thought exactly the same way about exactly the same things.. life would be unbearably boring.. would it not? <grin>

[0000 1845]

hehe.. I am always an outspoken 'devil's advocate'... and firmly believe there is *never* anything wrong with voicing your own opinion... I just think this got out of hand very early on... people get too much interested in 'soap-boxing' rather than stick to a topic.. which tends to spoil things..

 

The responsibility a john has toward this industry, is fairly simple.. I think, anyway....

- watch the sites you use and the people who are on them (sketchy or no..?)

- inform yourself as to signs of abuse (drugs, physical, mental)

- use reasonable ways to determine whether something is for you or not (the phone thing really was strange hehe I rarely am on hand to answer a call.. just sayin...)

- go with whatever head actually makes the best decision and is something you are comfortable with ;)

 

.... as one who has continually ruffled feathers on this site (but lately, have been behaving myself hehe) you do not, and should not have to feel 'bad' about your own opinion/actions... but just be prepared for a whole lot of others to do the same ... no matter how odd they may/not be ;)

 

Well for certain things I try to keep opinions on the side lines. Of course how much responsibility I take for which sp's I engage with, is all down to my own personal opinion and beliefs.

 

When we start talking about women getting the short end of the stick in regards to employment, my opinions start to have far less meaning than facts and stats.

 

I believe men and women both have difficulties in certain areas. There are more unemployed men and more homeless men. There is also an obvious wage gap between men and women.

 

It just peeved me a bit when Fortunate decided to play that female victim card and end the discussion there, as if I wasn't already aware that there is a wage gap.

 

The question isn't whether or not there IS a wage gap, we need to figure out exactly HOW that wage gap manifests and precisely WHY it occurs.

 

There is every indication that female dominated careers/trades are paid less. There is even evidence to suggest that this isn't just based on choice of profession: https://www.fastcompany.com/3044753/strong-female-lead/the-other-wage-gap-why-men-in-women-dominated-industries-still-earn-more

https://www.fastcompany.com/3044753/strong-female-lead/the-other-wage-gap-why-men-in-women-dominated-industries-still-earn-more

 

So the question then becomes, why is it that pay drops when women take over a trade? Why are men still earning more than women in female dominated trades?

 

If we are talking yearly salaries then we need to factor in hours worked, time off, job experience, and we even need to consider the possibility that men might "generally" be more career driven which may affect job performance.

 

If we break it down to hourly earnings and still find that female dominated trades offer less pay, then we can factor out hours worked, and time off.

Then we just need to work out the other factors.

 

I'm a perfectly reasonable person who is willing to admit that the pay gap may be due to gender bias. Until I see the facts though, I will retain a certain degree of skepticism as I do regarding anything that has yet to be proven.

 

Anyone who wants to use the pay gap to score some sympathy points had better be prepared to provide information that disproves the possibility that men might have more job experience, or that they might just be more career driven, "in general".

 

 

On the topic of Birth control and abortion, there is again 2 parts. My opinion is that abortion is morally wrong, but I can't prove my opinion so it doesn't really serve a purpose in the discussion. We have decided as a society that abortion should be a choice that the woman holds, so I bow to societal preference on that topic.

 

The facts however can not be ignored. Regardless of my opinions, the facts indicate that women have far more choice and freedoms in regards to birth control and whether or not to keep the child, either before birth has occurred, or even after birth has occurred.

 

A women can choose to give up a child after birth and give up any responsibility to the well being of that child. In many case adoption can even be subsidized by the government. A man can not do this without a legal demand for monetary support. This is a fact, and it is the very definition of a privilege that women have and men do not.

 

I'm not saying it's wrong for women to have that privilege, as men certainly have our own set of privileges. It is simply an explanation as to why I don't automatically jump to sympathy regarding the plight of impoverished single moms, they are usually not devoid of responsibility for their predicament.

 

 

On the topic of signs to watch for when selecting sp's:

 

I have educated myself regarding signs of abuse, enough to know that these signs are not always an obvious indicator one way or another.

The phone thing was simply a way to better ensure that I am speaking with the provider directly, rather than texting/emailing with someone in the middle who may not have the best interests of the provider in mind.

 

The problem is, I am either horny or not horny, and I can't really choose which head I am making decisions with when I'm horny. Hindsight is a nifty thing, and it is easy to berate myself into believing I could have made a better decision at the time. Foresight seems to be a much more effective option for us horny individuals though, it's always lead to a much better outcome for me :)

 

Personally I enjoy when discussions traverse off into many different directions, as long as the original discussion is still at the base of it. I am still happy to discuss my original points even as we diverge into other topics.

[Guest Prufrock Cummings]

Basically as the title says, what are some steps to take to guarantee an escort is not in a coercive situation and is actually independent?

 

I can think of some precautions like post count on Lyla, has a professional website of their own, has a schedule/isn't available 24/7, is willing to talk on the phone before meeting up, drives her own vehicle or uses a professional cab/transport company, the list goes on, but how do any of us really know for sure?

 

I think the women know really know for sure.

[0000 1845]

I think the women know really know for sure.

 

True enough, my only fear is that I might run into someone who is too afraid to tell me if she's in a bad situation. To each their own I guess, I don't how people deal with this without some form of cognitive dissonance, particularly if you don't take any precautions at all, as I chose not to in the past.

[capitalCforcougar 16766]

have to say ... as 'liberal' and 'free-style' as I love that I am.. not taking precautions is just silly... on anyone's part ;)