opting for no extras

[Maverick 2873]

I apologize to everyone for my comments coming off as offensive when I did not mean it in that way. I won't continue to pursue my position after this post as I now realize it was not fully thought out and not entirely based on fact.

To clarify, when I compared massage to waitressing I only did so because of the 'tip' factor, it was not intended at all to reflect the nature of the work. I also did not mean to compare massage to a minimum wage job, but when I discuss employment I compare wages to minimum wage because minimum wage jobs are generally open to the widest amount of prospective employees, and I myself have only ever worked minimum wage jobs.

Again, I want to point out that I do not intend to be offensive or inflammatory at all, and in regards to the women involved in the industry who I have interacted with in person or on cerb, they are all much better people than I am, so I would never even think of making any moral judgments or question their life courses.

That said, I will make two parting points, both of which are my personal opinion and I realize they won't be shared by everyone. Firstly, I realize that people like to complain about their jobs, but we tend to know what we're getting into when we start a job, and if we end up surprised and not a fan of what the job is actually like, there is nothing keeping us there. A great thing about this country is how many opportunities people have, vocationally and educationally.

Secondly, in response to passionseeker, specifically in regards to waitresses, I don't believe they are entitled to a bad day on the job. Your job description probably includes a sunny disposition, and as with any other job if you don't perform your duties you are subject to punishment (suspension, firing, reduced pay, etc.) I worked in retail for a few months and I always performed my duties up to par. I know I would not be able to put on a smile for people all evening long so I don't consider restaurant work when I am looking for employment. Sometimes you have to try something to know you can't do it and other times you know beforehand.

[passionseeker2010 112]

This will be my last post on this thread.... I swear!! lol

 

Maverick I disagree that if you don't like your job there is nothing keeping you there. Many people would love to quit their job, take an easier job, work for minimum wage etc, but their life circumstances do not allow for that. Many people are supporting a child, their families etc and have others relying on them making money. Working for minimum wage is not an option for these people.

 

As for waiters/waitresses, I have worked at my share of bars/restaurants. Is it possible some of these people are just not the type who should work with the public and that is the reason they sometimes provide bad service.... sure. But I would suggest to you that is not the norm. Most people I have worked with and know (including myself) were serving to put themselves through school, to support a boyfriend or girlfriend who was in school, to support a child etc. I standby what I said earlier.... not tipping appropriately is only contributing to the problem, not the solution. The majority of these people will turn around when someone provides a nice comment and appropriate tip for their work. A wise man once said you catch more flies with honey than shi*t!

 

Again, my best advice is to not judge anyone's reasons for doing what they do since until you get to know someone you can't possibly understand their reasons.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

I apologize to everyone for my comments coming off as offensive when I did not mean it in that way.

Thank you for your apology.

To clarify, when I compared massage to waitressing I only did so because of the 'tip' factor

While the same word is used, the "tips" waitresses receive are nothing like massage. The tips that waitresses receive are above and beyond their regular pay and they are supposed to reflect a job well done. The "tips" that massage providers get are the bare payment for their services. So really, we shouldn't be using the word tip.

 

Firstly, I realize that people like to complain about their jobs, but we tend to know what we're getting into when we start a job, and if we end up surprised and not a fan of what the job is actually like, there is nothing keeping us there.

WHOA. I vehemently disagree.

 

Just because we "choose" a job doesn't mean we have to accept to be treated poorly. This is the same justification used by people who say "Street sex workers know the risk they are taking so they need to accept that violence is a part of the work." I don't care if I "chose" my job, I still deserve to have the same rights and respect as everybody else. I won't "accept" to be treated badly and I will stand up for myself!

 

I hired a lawyer and went up against my strip club and a Canadian association that deals with strip clubs. They were exploitive to me and other workers. Sure you may say, "You knew this when you took the job so accept it" but I didn't. I fought it, made my point, and improved one aspect of working conditions for MANY other dancers in Ottawa and in Ontario.

 

Sure I could have "quit" as you seem to suggest or not "chosen" the job because of the crappy working conditions, but I didn't and I'm happy I didn't.

 

I won't post the details here because if a strip club were to read this, they wouldn't hire me. I would like to keep the option to dance open. If anyone would like to ask me about this experience, I would be happy to share it with you in person at a social or during a session.

 

You also say "There is nothing keeping you there" which shows a gross lack of understanding of many women in the sex industry. A large number of us are mothers, students, etc. and many don't see other work as a viable option. Imagine being a single mother with a couple children to feed and then try telling her "There is nothing keeping you here." There are also many other factors keeping women in the sex industry. One big one is stigma which I touched on in my first post to you. What if you are you "outed" as a sex worker? What if you have a criminal charge? Good luck finding another job! Also if you have a huge resume gap, that could seriously impact your ability to find a job. When you've been out of the conventional work force for awhile, it's difficult to get back in.

 

great thing about this country is how many opportunities people have' date=' vocationally and educationally. [/quote']

This is not true for everybody. We live in a country that greatly privileges men, white people, able-bodied people, the middle class, etc. Try talking to a street sex worker or a woman who works at a "low end" massage parlour and see if she agrees with you that "this country offers her so many vocational and educational opportunities."

 

Again Maverick, I do appreciate your apology, but I think your posts show a very clear lack of understanding of the nature of our work and the experiences of women in the sex industry.

[ottawaadventurer 5114]

Very well put Megan. When you're born into a privileged position in our society, it's easy to assume those privileges extend to everyone. They simply don't.

[waterat 20911]

I too have found this to be a valuable thread. I would have nominated a few posts and especially Megan's but I don't yet have enough posts to do that! I appreciate the thoughtful discussion on the topic. It is too easy to blunder along without thinking things through. The simple use of a word like 'tips' without recognizing the context can lead you down a path of very flawed logic.

[fortunateone 156618]

Just to play devil's advocate, service staff like waitresses make below minimum wage without tips, and if there's no business there's not much money. So it's something one has to be aware of going into their job, be it waitressing or massaging.

 

 

Probably someone else responded to this, but on the other hand, mps aren't making minimum wage, since the employer isn't paying them. As tiff says, if they had no clients, they have no money at all.

 

 

I am pretty sure this is illegal, and wondered how the owner of these places can get away with having no employees on the payroll.

 

added; having read more posts, I would have to say I didn't find the original waitstaff/ma analogy particularly offensive, as I had seen it more to compare two jobs that rely on "tips", and there are few other jobs out there that we all relate to where tipping is automatic and expected, and also the one receiving it really depends on it for a decent wage. And so do the ladies in mps, or so we think. But usually in mps we are aware that the "tip" is for the service, after the room fee is paid and that this is their only income there. I think referring to the payment as "Tip" is what is confusing actually, since it isn't really a "tip" it is actually "payment for services".

 

And as I mention, I can't think of any legal reason why the MA's are not paid minimum wage for their shift times, since a condition of employment is to get a schedule, have to show up for their shift, and be avaiable and prepared for clients. That is a job, and just because there are no clients, doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid. Otherwise, they should be able to hang out in a nearby cafe and only come back when clients show up, or stay home and come in when there is an appt. The fact they are given specific hours to be there, and may not even just be able to show up when they feel like it, all that makes them employees and the employer is getting off easy since they don't have to pay anyone wages, just collect money when people show up.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

fortunateone - The massage owner, just like strip club owners, declare the women who work there to be independent contractors. Independent contractors basically have no rights and they do not have to be guaranteed a minimum wage. They are treated as being self-employed.

 

However, the status of employee or independent contractor is not determined by what the owner/manager says, or even by what is signed in the contract. It is determined by the nature of the employment.

 

In other words, even if a massage provider or erotic dancer at a strip club signed a contract that she is an "independent contractor," she could take her spa/club to court and argue that the nature of their relationship was actually employee/employer and she could sue for back wages. For obvious reasons, many are reluctant to do this.

 

One of my friends was an erotic dancer for about 10 years and she now practices labour law, so I've had a lot of interesting conversations with her about the legal nature of sex work as work.

[moonshadow 369]

I didn't realize massage providers were treated this way by

Spa owners. Makes you wonder how they can stay in business and why

more women don't take control and work from their own location

as a true self-emplyed independent contractor...

Posted via Mobile Device

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

I didn't realize massage providers were treated this way by

Spa owners. Makes you wonder how they can stay in business and why

more women don't take control and work from their own location

as a true self-emplyed independent contractor...

Posted via Mobile Device

Well, not all ladies are treated badly. There are some very good spas in Ottawa that offer a high level of service and treat the ladies well.

 

Why wouldn't they go independent? Well, lots of reasons:

 

-It actually takes skills and hard work to open up your own business. Not everyone has the skills to be able to manage a business.

 

-Some are living paycheck-to-paycheck and can't afford to invest in a business. My initial start-up was about $3000 for first/last rent + signing a year lease ($12,000) about $500 for towels, $500 for other supplies like candles, music player, a couple tables, etc.

 

-Some may find themselves in a shitty financial situation and do massage/stripping short-term to get back on their feet. It makes no sense to invest in a business when you're in it for the short-term.

 

-Some are students and single mothers and simply don't have the time to run a business. Running a massage business is a huge time commitment.

 

I personally love being independent because I love managing a business, but there are a lot of women who enjoy doing massage but don't like the business aspect. Spas are perfect for them!

[moonshadow 369]

All very valid points Megan. Makes sense.

 

I'm an independent self employed guy, but I had solid financial

footing before I set out on my own. I guess the Spas are perfect

for women who are in situations that you describe.

 

I personally don't think I will ever visit a spa, but if I ever do

I'm glad I read this thread because I certainly wouldn't want to

leave without making sure the woman is properly compensated.

Posted via Mobile Device

[waterat 20911]

I didn't realize massage providers were treated this way by Spa owners. Makes you wonder how they can stay in business

and why

more women don't take control and work from their own location

as a true self-emplyed independent contractor...

Posted via Mobile Device

 

I was attempting to compose a multiple quote response but see now Megan has already replied more succinctly and knowledgeably than I could.

 

There can be no doubt that the current legal situation scares many ladies away from taking on the business risks too. Once we pull our collective heads out of the sand and legalize the services that are in demand it will be difficult for a more sensible balance between Spa Owners and MP to develop.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

One more thing I wanted to add is that my "rant" is more against the way our laws work, rather than against massage parlour owners. I don't believe that massage parlour owners are inherently more exploitive than managers in any other business, but I think the laws make it easier to exploit women. I'm referring both to the laws that criminalize our work as well as labour regulations.

 

I'd be willing to bet that if another industry, such as telemarketing or fast food, were criminalized and not regulated by labour laws, the same exploitation that happens in the sex industry would happen in almost any other industry.

 

What we need is full decriminalization, and our work needs to be recognized as legitimate work worthy of the same legal protections as any other worker in Ontario.

 

One more thing I wanted to add is that in Ottawa unlicensed massage parlours that do not include oral sex or intercourse are regulated by by-law services, not by the police. Though they could technically give a bawdy house charge to any place that offers a handjob, this is not the way Ottawa works, and precedent-setting cases would make this charge very difficult to stick.

[whiteman 14028]

I didn't realize massage providers were treated this way by

Spa owners. Makes you wonder how they can stay in business and why

more women don't take control and work from their own location

as a true self-emplyed independent contractor...

Posted via Mobile Device

Probably for the same reasons that we don't all work as contractors ourselves, there's a certain amount of hassle in running your own show. This way, you don't have to deal with the administration of the place.