Let's get messy...

[emb3750 9398]

As someone who has always respected your voice, experience and insight, I look forward to part two.

[Boomer 33202]

Well said.

[GoinDown 3669]

It is a criminal offence to purchase sexual services in this country. Full stop. Until that changes, 'clients' - who are overwhelmingly men - expose themselves to risks that could have life changing consequences and perhaps that factors into a subconscious desire for some to want to get the most bang for their buck while minimizing their exposure to perceived risk.

Just a thought.

[Manluvsex 13731]

It is a criminal offence to purchase sexual services in this country. Full stop. Until that changes, 'clients' - who are overwhelmingly men - expose themselves to risks that could have life changing consequences and perhaps that factors into a subconscious desire for some to want to get the most bang for their buck while minimizing their exposure to perceived risk.

Just a thought.

 

While the desire to ''get the most bang for the buck'' is understandable and legitimate, it should never involve pressuring or manipulating a provider to work outside of her comfort zone and boundaries, and must always involve clear and informed consent.

 

It used to be that hockey players could just about kill each other on the ice, because it was considered a game, and as such outside of the purview of criminal prosecution as it was interpreted until relatively recently. As we all now know, the interpretation of the same Criminal Code today has resulted in a small number of hockey players being charged with assault.

 

Following the ongoing Tsunami started by the Weinstein affair about sexual harassment of mostly women and what may be considered adequate consent; the societal goalposts have moved significantly on these issues. We can assume that the courts will interpret the laws on sexual assault and reasonable consent more stringently in line with the movement of public opinion in that same direction.

 

The interpretation of laws by men and women who sit on the bench are guided by legal precedent, but also somewhat by the majority views of the population. I would guess that if we had taken the same survey of a random sampling of Canadian adults this time last year as we would today today, the views against those who sexually assault women have hardened significantly in that short period of time. And I would argue that the movement on that issue continues to move toward against any form of sexual harassment or assault.

 

One only has to look at the Anti-harassment codes in the federal government, where an unwanted touching of a colleagues shoulder may result in a loss of employment. And such codes do not consider the intend of the accused when he touched his secretary's shoulder '' as a gesture of appreciation'', but more on how that gesture made the woman feel and whether she had consented to that specific touch prior to it happening.

We can argue that the code makes it far too easy for false accusations to be made, but that is the direction such codes, regulations and laws are being written and interpreted. We can choose to ignore the shifting of these tectonic plates governing relations between men and women and act however we deem appropropriate, but the risks of such an approach are increasing quickly.

 

So testing or pushing boundaries with a provider to see how far we can get, may now open that client being charged and convicted for sexual assault. But, more importantly, from an ethical point of view, the payment of money for sexual services should not in any way change the way we view consent and respect in our relations with SW's .

 

Drawing on the arguments made by Cat in this regard, nothing should be assumed by a client when meeting a provider and unambiguous consent must be sought and obtained before doing something not already clearly agreed to. And even if agreed to beforehand, a provider may decide during the meeting to restrict certain services for a number of reasons, hence the expression YMMV.

 

I would argue, that we men are able to know when we are about to go too far with a SP, MP or dancer. I can usually sense it by body language and facial expressions. I have known providers to give a physical signal, such as turning away or impeding access, which should be a clear enough signal we have already gone too far. But by that time the harm has been done, and a provider may legitimately feel that we have acted disrespectfully.

 

Now, as clients we are happy when a provider is enthusiastic and shows warmth and genuine affection. But if disrespectful behaviour by clients occurs as little as 10% of all SP's and MP's appointments, let's say for argument; the emotional burden and suffering from being disrespected day after day, over a long period of time, not knowing when it will happen next, by potentially hundreds of different men; may have a cumulative effect that will force some women to quit the business, others to break down physically or emotionally, and for the majority to become hardened and more wary from these negative experiences.

 

I don't know how we as clients can expect all SW's to be carefree, enthusiastic, and always horny and raring to go, if we know that they are subjected to demeaning behaviour on a daily basis. I don't know anyone who is subjected to disrespect in their workplace, if only by one person of authority, over a period of time who does not suffer greatly from a lack of self-esteem and and end up either severely depressed, forced to leave their job or worse.

 

And this type of client-provider abuse must be serious and pervasive. One has just to look at the tweets of random providers to see how bad the situation is. As clients, we either bite the bullet, accept this is today's reality and actively do something to stop it, or we can continue to be a big part of the problem.

 

While I would never think of the majority of men or male members of this board to be disrespectful in the way I have described, but we can still be active and part of the solution by supporting SW's rights and improved working and health care conditions, and by calling out other men who brag about how they pushed a vulnerable provider to provide the maximum mileage at the minimal cost and got all kinds of extras that she initially said she didn't provide. They should no longer find any website, bar, club house, locker room, water cooler or man cave where such pride in committing sexual assault will be tolerated, never mind encouraged. It will take guts and commitment, but change sometimes come one conversation or tiny action at a time. And for those of us who admit to have been disrespectful and taking advantage of the situation with SW's in the past, it is never too late to make amends and promise ourselves to do the honorable thing from now on.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

I hear you loud and clear, Cat. This business does need regulation, although I'm not sure self regulation will work.

 

The world has always had "free riders" that will seek an advantage over others and never consider the consequences, just their own desires. As long as this behavior gets rewarded it will continue and even grow. From people who butt lines to people who cut you off in traffic to people who package bad mortgages and sell them as triple A investments and even people who pressure unwilling sex workers for extras, what they share is a willingness to seek a short term advantage and only think of themselves. We always had a bit of that but the pendulum is swinging to the selfish and short sighted side, it seems lately.

 

Regulation is necessary to save people from their worst instincts. Until that happens all I can do is live by my own code which at it's most basic is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Some will call that quaint but I always believe the world is how we make it.

 

I hope others will take to heart what you have posted.

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

Amazing, going to read again once I find my glasses

[WhereIRoam 21825]

I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to a MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs shouldn't offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

[cat 262460]

I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

The Whorephobia that the concept of a hybrid MA embraces is ludicrous and undermines the human rights we are fighting so hard to achieve. An MA that offers any services other than manual release is in fact an Escort, plain and simple. If it goes in a hole, any hole, that is full service. We are all sexworkers, there is no shame in being a full service provider. The issue I have here is ethics, SWs doing things that undermine their peers safety and security.

 

As I explained, an escort (any provider that offers any kind of full service) can offer any services she is comfortable with but it's illegal and unethical to offer them in either a strip club, a massage parlour or club. Nicolette Vaughan clearly explains that in the facesitting thread that she offers both but she works alone and protects each service as individual offerings. I in fact, offer both; with a separate massage spa and a playroom for full service. As a independent escorts, that option isn't a problem because we are not undermining other providers either in price or adding the pressure to provide services outside of the service divide because we work alone AND we are full service escorts. Offering massage or dance isn't a problem as long as we consent to providing the services.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to a MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I don't see any reason anyone would feel targeted unless they know they are bleeding barrier divides (providing full service in spas and clubs) thus putting their peers in compromising situations. And if they are knowingly doing that, then they should be reflecting on their business practices and ethical position. They are on the wrong side of this and I'd be happy to sit down with pen and paper and show them exactly why.

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs should offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

 

No, there is no permit to legally operate a brothel. It's illegal in every aspect. It would require criminal charges and pushing it through to a CSS challenge like Terry Bedford did. Then we would need to pray that the gov't in power made it legal instead of taking liberties away like they did with C36. So, the Spas and PMClubs allow full service while masquerading as legal enterprises when in fact what they are doing is illegal. They know what's happening and who it's happening with but they turn a blind eye. Only massage with manual release is legal in massage parlours and clubs. From a legal standpoint, owners who allow full service on site are endangering all of their contract workers if one of the workers is performing full service on site. Everyone in the location can be charged within common brothel laws; even the MA's who don't offer services and clients who don't receive them will charged as if they did and have to fight the charges in court to prove otherwise. From an ethical stance, owners are endangering their MA only providers ethically and legally. Even if they were to cover the legal costs of such fiasco, how do they repair the damage done with having a criminal record? They can't, you can't make the record of the charges disappear. But my concern isn't about the legal, it's about the day in day out abuse that SWs endure because of unethical clients and providers.

 

Legally, independents can work independently and share space in small groups without issue for now but no one can own a business contracting workers and operating full service incall which includes strip clubs, spas and clubs.

 

So, it's really quite simple. Independent sex workers can offer whatever services they are comfortable offering as long as they are in an independent location. Club contract workers, Dancers and MAs should offer what their location is legally in business to do. If a Dancer or MA wants to offer a client full service, take it off site into a separate location at an appropriate time. Not in the champaign rooms, not in the spa massage rooms. I hope this helps.

 

smiles, cat

[Katherine of Halifax 113932]

I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to a MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs shouldn't offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

 

WIR, I was going to do my best of answer you last night . However I see now that cat has already done so . Probably in a more clear and concise way.

 

Aren't we lucky to have her!!

[Jasmine Rain 23126]

I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to an MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs shouldn't offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

 

I work as an SP who offers massage services and have worked in a SC.

 

I am going to agree with Cat.

 

I really wish that while I was working in the SC, I was respected enough by clients and management, to ensure that only SC services were offered and received.

 

The ladies who offered "take-out" made it so much harder for us who did not want to offer FS or BBBJs. Clients would always push boundaries and say "so-so" does it. Management would not care so long as LE didn't find out. Other then that, they did not do a thing to prevent it. If those ladies wanted to escort, they should have just done it like every other escort.

 

When I offer a MA session, I will not allow SP services. Other then some light kissing and maybe a show of my breasts, it is a full massage with HE only. I won't even go as far as a BS because I think if you want the full MA experience you should go to a MPA for it.

 

Sadly, clients, ladies and agents/management are never going to agree and therefore there will be "spas" that are basically incall agencies and "take-out" from SC.

 

And SPs can certainly offer some of the related services of SC or MPA but for me, from me, it is a limited experience because if you want that full experience, I feel you should go where those are offered. I only offer a sample of those as well as my main FS SP session.

 

Having said all that, the facesitting thread brought to light a major issue. Not necessarily about who should be doing what in the business. What was concerning is men feeling that they can "test the limits" by sticking their tongue on a lady's vagina without prior consent. The idea that the best way to get consent is by doing first instead of asking first is the main issue in my opinion.

 

It seems really simple to me - if you want to try something with a SP, MA, or dancer - YOU ASK FIRST. Full stop.

 

You don't try the physical act and wait to be told no. I think that is the shift that needs to happen in society. It has to change from trying and waiting for a no to asking and waiting to receive a yes.

[WhereIRoam 21825]

I'm not looking for or intending any type of back and forth unless in a civilized manner.

 

Phaedrus made ultra valid points on his post in regards to exotic love. His points are well stated and well written in a very respectful manner that would make even Plato proud.

 

I realize MAs who don't offer more than a HE may also agree with the points made by the OP and in the subsequent post. Other than that, I only see SPs posting on this thread having an issue with who offers what services. I will use this term in the most respectful manner possible, sincerely. Why does it appear that only SPs are seemingly the ones feeling entitled to offering what they feel are SP only services yet at the same time feel they can offer massage and strip tease? Even SPs do/offer/render HEs yet opinions are being made that this is all MAs should offer. I don't agree and I've only had two MA visits. Like Phaedrus stated; if this makes me a "bad person", a part of or the problem itself in thinking this way, so be it. :) We are all entitled to our opinions.

 

My personal belief on all of this is that between fully consenting legal adults, regardless of gender and number of participants (in or outside of the industry), will never be free of opinions but should be free of public judgement. In the end, as previously stated by GoinDown, who are any of us, all being in this industry, to publicly judge anyone.

[Jasmine Rain 23126]

I'm not looking for or intending any type of back and forth unless in a civilized manner.

 

Phaedrus made ultra valid points on his post in regards to exotic love. His points are well stated and well written in a very respectful manner that would make even Plato proud.

 

I realize MAs who don't offer more than a HE may also agree with the points made by the OP and in the subsequent post. Other than that, I only see SPs posting on this thread having an issue with who offers what services. I will use this term in the most respectful manner possible, sincerely. Why does it appear that only SPs are seemingly the ones feeling entitled to offering what they feel are SP only services yet at the same time feel they can offer massage and strip tease? Even SPs do/offer/render HEs yet opinions are being made that this is all MAs should offer. I don't agree and I've only had two MA visits. Like Phaedrus stated; if this makes me a "bad person", a part of or the problem itself in thinking this way, so be it. :) We are all entitled to our opinions.

 

My personal belief on all of this is that between fully consenting legal adults, regardless of gender and number of participants (in or outside of the industry), will never be free of opinions but should be free of public judgement. In the end, as previously stated by GoinDown, who are any of us, all being in this industry, to publicly judge anyone.

 

 

First I don't know what you would feel this discussion is not civilized but I will try to continue the discussion anyway.

 

To the first bolded part, I believe I can speak as an SP because I was a dancer. So if I have experience from both sides. There are many SPs who were in massage and changed as well like I did. So that is why I feel I can state my opinion on both.

 

To get to the point about services offered. SP services are Full Service. That does not mean sex. That means everything including sex. That means the possibility of massage, striptease, sexual services, dinner dates, social outings, overnights, companion trips, etc. I don't know how better to explain it but escort services include MA and SC services. You don't go to a MPA for a striptease, you don't go to a SC for a massage. I don't get your confusion on this.

Most escorts, however, are like me and only offer those services in a limited fashion because personally, I want to focus more on the intimate sexual acts vrs the teasing.

 

 

To the second bolded comment, I don't see where there is judgement happening expect regarding discussion of consent. And as you have stated everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not to mention that some opinions about men licking vaginas of MA's without prior permission are just that. Opinions, not judgments. At least not in my opinion. You are free to disagree.

 

However, I will ask directly,

 

do you think it is okay to do trying for a sexual act first and wait for a no, or should men ask first and wait for a yes?

[cat 262460]

@phaedrus - Yes, in Ontario at least the legal standing is that HE is legal in a spa but the spa needs a municipal business license which are limited in number and grandfathered in. This is why private members clubs have started. There was a spa who took on the legal fight and won years ago.

 

I agree its in human nature to push and be self centered but it doesn't mean we have to. We can do better and we need to. Anyone who believes that their wants/needs trump all else consistently contribute to the abuse SWs experience as a whole. Each and everyone in the industry needs to realize that or else things will turn. Out providers will eventually start considering legal options. I've sat and listened to multiple no brand Dancers and MAs discuss it and the truth is that these women make up the bulk of workers in the industry. It would only take a small number of these women cooperating with LE to ensure industry wide disruption due to legal entanglements. Trust me when I say it's being seriously considered here in Ottawa so LE may be highly motivated to start book throwing.

 

@WIR I'm unsure where the conversation here could be considered uncivilized. Perhaps if you point it out, those who have offended would I'm sure be happy to apologize. Of course Phaedrus was clear, concise and on point. He is an exceptionally considerate, articulate and self aware man. I would expect no less from him in any conversation and we have had more conversations over the years than I can count.

 

As for your comment regarding MAs contributing here, perhaps you are unaware of the way the spas work. Most MAs don't participate on the review boards accept to post ads, it's the owner/managers that are active and I don't expect any of them to step in here given their unethical business practices. I'd be surprised if 15% of MAs have ever read anything other than their own review threads. Providers choose Spas to maintain their anonymity, having an online presence in the sex trade is at best uncomfortable for them, participating in threads isn't one of their pastimes.

 

I think what you are missing is that if any provider chooses to offer services, they are welcome to do it. They just should have the decency to respect the service divides. Any contract worker that provides extras are escorts so why don't they just go work for an escort agency? It makes no sense. Please trust me when I say this service bleed is resulting in acts that are in fact sexual assaults on a daily basis and rest assured, there will be backlash sooner than later. I'm unsure why you can't grasp that what I'm saying is that service bleeds has led to sex workers being regularly assaulted in these venues. You can't deny my claim and I can actually back it up with proof. I'm trying to inform this community that there need to be changes because there could be serious legal fall out coming. Why you insist you are standing on the high ground is disconcerting and speaks to the attitudes that lead to this problem to begin with. Being the problem is a truth whether you choose to see it or not. Even if you haven't crossed a boundary, your attitude empowers those that do. I appreciate you are entitled to your opinion just as it's my right to explain why your opinion contributes to the violence workers experience in this industry.

 

As for the judgement statement, the fact that I am in this industry and I'm immersed in it wholly means if I can't speak to the aspects of the sex trade that are dangerous, who then can? Who is suppose to try to protect and ensure workers aren't violated but the workers themselves? Are clients to be our protectors, the voice of reason here? Many could be, judging from the pms I've received; they understand what I've been saying but I don't have anything to be ashamed of being a sex worker and being non judgemental doesn't mean "anything goes". Rapists, sexual harassers and boundary pushers aren't the weird, creepy guy living in secluded safety of his mothers basement. It's anyone who thinks their behaviour is acceptable after being told it isn't and anyone dismissing or denying violence is happening after being told that it is happening. I think that's a fairly simple concept to grasp. And I'm trying to tell you, it's happening. I'm unsure how to make it any more clear.

 

smiles, cat

 

Additional Comments:

This is exactly the issue, it's a good read...

 

http://www.myajc.com/news/local/cheetah-dancers-allege-sexual-assault-top-atlanta-strip-club/6udoC3nhtw2JXJM9uzv3vJ/

[WhereIRoam 21825]

@Jessica Rain

About, "do you think it is okay to do trying for a sexual act first and wait for a no, or should men ask first and wait for a yes?"

 

Of course I don't think it's okay! Yes, clients should always ask first.

 

@cat

It's unfortunate you feel as you do at the moment. It's nearly the Holiday Season, be happy!

 

To both Jessica and cat

This is what I stated on my previous post, "I'm not looking for or intending any type of back and forth unless in a civilized manner."

 

I didn't mention nor do I feel it has become uncivilized anywhere on this thread so one should not feel any need to apologize.

 

 

As for this thread generally of opinions,

I'm now seeing the same opinions being expressed over and over again by the same members so I will agree to disagree with some of the opinions here. As such, I'm removing myself from this thread at the moment.

 

Cheers,

[cat 262460]

@WIR

 

What on earth would entitle you to think I'm unhappy? Only an assumption on your part; rest assured. You bowing out is appreciated given your inclination to dismiss and deny by claiming what I've said to be simple opinion. Again, that is the problem at hand I've been trying to address. Have a lovely Christmas and may all that you put into the world come back at you 10 fold...

 

smiles, cat

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

Thank you Cat for bringing up this important conversation.

 

I still remember when I provided massage rates. I would explain to a client that this was a happy ending. One client in particular said "I don't want intercourse" a number of times. So I thought he understood. However, as I was massaging him, he lifted his head up and licked my pussy. I stood back to use body language that this was not ok. As I again went to massage him, he did it again. I stopped and said "it looks like you want full service. Daty is not included." He again said "I don't want intercourse". So, his opinion is that full service means intercourse. My opinion is full service means any of my openings. Mouth, pussy or anus.

 

I stopped saying no Greek and spelling out "no anal services" because so many thought that meant their penis. However their finger or tongue were ok.

 

There is a push from clients for more and more for less and less. I do notice that the prolific reviewers typically rarely are ideal clients. It feels to me anyway that there are those that view sw's as a piece of meat they can use as they wish. Ideal clients are clear on boundaries.

 

Consent must always be enthusiastic and continual. On both sides. So many providers grit their teeth and don't speak up during a session where the client has crossed the boundary. I've seen this myself, so know it happens.

 

As a client, please make sure boundaries are clearly defined BEFORE the session begins. As a provider, please don't allow clients to get services from you that you don't want to provide. You have the right and obligation to say no. Clients must also speak out when they hear other guys say things that are clearly not ok.

[Phaedrus 209521]

@phaedrus - Yes, in Ontario at least the legal standing is that HE is legal in a spa but the spa needs a municipal business license which are limited in number and grandfathered in. This is why private members clubs have started. There was a spa who took on the legal fight and won years ago.

 

Ya, I was talking about Federal Law, not the Ottawa or Ontario regulations. I know that some places are officially sanctioned by the City and others have worked around that. The fact that the two are wildly inconsistent simply reflects how screwed up the whole sorry mess has become.

 

I agree its in human nature to push and be self centered but it doesn't mean we have to. We can do better and we need to. Anyone who believes that their wants/needs trump all else consistently contribute to the abuse SWs experience as a whole. Each and everyone in the industry needs to realize that or else things will turn. Out providers will eventually start considering legal options. I've sat and listened to multiple no brand Dancers and MAs discuss it and the truth is that these women make up the bulk of workers in the industry. It would only take a small number of these women cooperating with LE to ensure industry wide disruption due to legal entanglements. Trust me when I say it's being seriously considered here in Ottawa so LE may be highly motivated to start book throwing.

 

The problem here is that we live in the world we're in, and we have to deal with human nature as it is. There are plenty of decent people out there, but there are enough assholes to be a problem, and that won't change. That issue is by no means unique to this industry. We have to collectively figure out what to do about it.

 

To go off on a slight tangent for a moment... from my perspective, one of the most striking things about all we've heard since Weinstein is that general and non-specific descriptions of abuse have been replaced by specific ones. The power of that transition is not to be underestimated: a specific accusation by one person against another, even if it isn't then followed by many others backing it up to demonstrate a pattern of behaviour, is far more persuasive than generic statements that really bad stuff happens. That transition can't happen here as the board rules prevent it, but...

 

I get the impression that the latter part of your paragraph above alludes to the possibility of providers pursuing prosecutions against clients for sexual assault, or worse. Is that right? If so - and being fully aware of that old saw about being careful what you wish for - would it be a very bad thing if that shoe dropped? It would *really* send the message that no, you can't do this, and there will be consequences if you try it, and the days when you could get away with it are over. I'm sure that would change the calculus for those who may feel inclined to try. And it would replace the general descriptions of abuse with specific ones. Of course, that's not something to be done lightly, and the law of unintended consequences undoubtedly applies, but I can see how it could be to the industry's long-term benefit.

 

Additional Comments:

So, his opinion is that full service means intercourse. My opinion is full service means any of my openings. Mouth, pussy or anus.

 

Bearing that in mind...

 

As a client, please make sure boundaries are clearly defined BEFORE the session begins. As a provider, please don't allow clients to get services from you that you don't want to provide. You have the right and obligation to say no. Clients must also speak out when they hear other guys say things that are clearly not ok.

 

Perhaps we also need to try and get away from terms like "full service". Clearly defining boundaries is great... but it relies on everyone understanding the same thing by the words used, and if that isn't happening then there will be problems even if everyone's trying to do the right thing.

 

Please, nobody try and hijack this thread with a debate about what GFE means.

[Genevieve Marceau 68000]

I realize MAs who don't offer more than a HE may also agree with the points made by the OP and in the subsequent post. Other than that, I only see SPs posting on this thread having an issue with who offers what services. I will use this term in the most respectful manner possible, sincerely. Why does it appear that only SPs are seemingly the ones feeling entitled to offering what they feel are SP only services yet at the same time feel they can offer massage and strip tease?

 

 

It is not the first time that you bring up entitlement. In the Facesitting thread, you even said that SPs are reacting to the issue out of jealousy. If you want to talk in a civilized manner, that would be great if you keep the misogynistic stereotypes out of the discussion.

 

As the SP who hijacked the Facesitting thread to call out the problematic, here's my point of view:

 

I am an escort, I offer full service and my rates are established accordingly. MAs and Dancers will generally charge much less than an escort, yet they physically work A LOT harder. Giving a full body massage for an hour or dance all evening on a stage is physically highly demanding, a lot more than just sex and pillow talks. Escorts do a great deal of emotional labour, but so are the MAs and Dancers. Yet they choose this area of the sex industry regardless. Why? Physical boundaries, avoid stigma associated with full service workers, don't like to be touched by strangers, their SO not comfortable with their partner offering full service, physical limitations, etc.

 

As an escort who's minimal introduction starts at $800, it doesn't add up in my head why a MA would charge $150 or so to work her ass off, only to end up providing the service of a SP. I think it is highly unfair to them. No, I don't think anyone is stealing labour from me.

 

I have mentioned in the Facesitting thread that everyone are entitled to provide services they are comfortable with, but Cat made me changed my mind: if a MA wants to provide more than a HJ, she should not be doing so in a massage parlour, but in a hotel room. New, unexperienced MAs who just joined the business probably think it's the industry standard to offer extras. I therefore don't think massage providers do offer them out of greed and/or selfishness.

[Theredmilf 2025]

Thank you Cat. I read this post twice and you've articulated many thoughts that have been percolating over the past year of getting to know this industry. As people tend to do, I've drawn on my past experiences working in other sectors and I've wondered (sometimes aloud) why we aren't banding together to discuss and implement some professional standards. And especially, as you've rightly identified, the political climate is already overripe for organizing our sector from taxation, labour laws and human rights perspectives.

 

In other sectors leaders have stepped up and facilitated the creation of common ideals. As SW we are independent, yes, like artists. However, you're right, the greater social impact should not be overshadowed by our personal autonomy. If a rising tide floats all boats, the low tide will is surely ground many.

 

I'm solution-oriented and so hopeful a discussion of what industry standards can and should be will take place. I'm not being obtuse or provacative here with these questions but completely matter-of-fact: What is meant for example by unsafe practices? What is meant by low fees? These are obviously sensitive topics but is it possible to at least talk about historical standards versus today? Or share different approaches?

 

I appreciate your very frank commentary. That in an of itself has raised the bar from my own perspective. I would like to hear more and especially from other SWs on these issues.

[louis reed 1000]

"If you expect unlisted or unsafe services, you are the problem."

 

Hmm. Most spas or MPs don't list HE's, let alone hand-jobs. And most don't explicitly offer them when you attend. They might tease and hint that extras are available for the asking, but usually wait for the client to ask. So, yes, by your standard, I am the problem.

 

But one of the things I like about MPs is the uncertainty, and the seduction dance, and it would be sad to lose that. If you can't see that, you are the problem.

 

Moreover, asking for a service is not coercion just because the provider fears loss of business. That's just how business is done.

 

Finally, your boundaries are kind of arbitrary. Most of society would consider a spa's boundary to fall short of HEs, and if you don't agree, they would consider you part of the problem.

[Guest]

Part of the problem I think is that everyone's worried about each others backyard.

 

The only thing I'm in compliance with is the law. That's what people here have really forgotten about. The law states that we can't advertise sexual services. So some of us have tied things up in a pretty little bow. For the companions who have always provided a full service girlfriend experience which includes social and true companionship features; the change was simple. We didn't really have to change much. I have never been too descriptive in my advertising leaving it to be playful, keeping some things to the imagination. However, I do feel bad for more of the pse escorts as they have had a harder time trying to depict their escort style. It takes all kinds and I'm confident That I attract the right people to me by what I put out there. I guess what I'm saying is the girls advertising dangerous services do not need to reflect anyone else except themselves. What others do, do not need to reflect me or "my brand".

 

 

Now, I don't really care what a MA does in regards to the services she gives. That's between two consenting adults. The only hope I have is that the service provider charges appropriately for what she's doing. When I'm working I also provide erotic massage. However, it's the same price as my regular companionship donation. Why because I like to be mentally prepared and if things do move on to the next level...I don't want to be bringing up money and extra charges. It's not too sexy IMO. However, again it's not my business and who am I to say how much someone charges. As long as the service provider is happy with what she is charging. Sa la vie. Again, I'm not into enforcing my version of standards on anyone.

 

However, I do think spa owners and other MA's working in massage parlors should respect the laws of where they work and who they work with. Let's call a spade a spade. It does become a common bawdy house when even one or more people are providing sexual acts for money. Putting yourself, the people you work with and even the client in danger of persecution. Then again these things are choices I have not made for myself. So I can conveniently push that aside and say the choice is yours to participate in whatever you choose to. Who knows maybe that's part of the appeal for some people? There is of course other options clients can take. For example: independent Ma's, Escorts, etc. The only ones that this truly effects is the new MA's who don't know that extra's are going on. As this is becoming less and less of a secret that may effect the choice of new girlseven wanting to dabble with being an Ma. Why because now really there's no difference between being a Ma and an escort (at least at known bawdy house). A stigma and services some do not want to offer. So again law of attraction trumps.

 

On public boards there will be all kinds of personalities. Those who do like dangerous services. Those who want a safe provider and everyone in between. The one thing that I want to push forward is that everyone here deserves respect. Whither you agree with their business style or not. As a client if you have a specific request, ask first and don't force said request on to the companion. Respect any requirements to see chosen companion. There's a reason to the why's. Not one way is better than the other. So pay attention to what the companion writes in her ads, on her website and what she/he says. I think that that's what the let's call the middle escorts are lacking. The support, respect and compassion of what we escorts do. We are not on the cold streets surviving, nor are we making thousands of dollars per session. We however are diligently running our businesses the best way we know how. It's one thing to suggest/mentor,however, dictating and demands. I think just put a bad taste in people mouth and push them away. Maybe the law will decide that people need conformity, until then let's not play the role of vigilante.

 

Now I think part of the problem is that everyone is too worried about what everyone else is doing. I think the only thing we can really do is represent ourselves in the manner we want to be seen in. Put our best foot forward and by being that person to look up to. That speaks more to me anyway. The fact of the matter is that the lines have been blurred and how can we respectfully coexist in a manner that benefits everyone? Let's just keep it easy. Be respectful, that's it.

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

The law states that we can't advertise sexual services.

 

Clarification. As an independent provider, I am allowed to advertise my services. Clients are not allowed to purchase sexual services, which is why I do not advertise sexual services. Third party advertisers (backpage, handlers, spas, agencies etc) are not allowed to advertise sexual services of another person.

[80watts 130]

Nice Thread! Educational.

Stripper tips: the reason I mostly stopped tipping strippers was because of the change of the dollar bill to the loonie & toonie. Loonies, the small coin was hard for strippers to hold as opposed to a bill. And back then no way was I gonna give a $5 bill.

Funny thing about coins I seen a few guys do the 2 thumb conversion, flicking the coin across the stage and trying to hit the jackpot and sink the coin between the breasts.

[Jasmine Rain 23126]

I wrote this on the other board and I am simply going to copy and paste it. Some of it is not based on the topic, it goes a little beyond that but it all ties into the simple and easy notion of respect for women in this industry and how negative behaviour by some men is, in fact, a form of sexual assault or harassment to us.

 

Please note that references to "other boards" or "this board" in the below are NOT a referenced properly. It is, in fact, the opposite.

 

We have seen all these threads, news reports, interviews, etc from women describing the sexual harassment they put up in the workforce. Well let me say, folks, this industry is not immune to that bullshit either. You may think because escorts sell sex that we would not be able to be assaulted or certainly not sexually harassed but that is simply not the case.

 

Let me break down things a little.

 

Steathing - I don't even understand why this needs to be a discussion but apparently it does and not just for this hobby. I have experienced this outside of the hobby and it is a HUGE violation and to some people, it is akin to rape. It is certainly a form of sexual assault. When a woman decides she will have sex with you but only with a condom on, and you take that condom off, unknown to her - YOU ARE SEXUALLY ASSAULTING HER. Just sayin'. Can't really say anymore. It is wrong. It is a form of power and control, it is a form of sexual assault. End stop.

 

Negative consequence reviewing/threatening - We all know this happens, but we don't know just how much or how some comments may not seem like a threat to a negative review, but in fact are. When you say in a coy, teasing manner that if XXX is not done that won't bring about a good review, that is still a threat. A threat of a negative consequence if a sexual act is not performed. That is sexual harassment.

 

Some may know that a review in the TO agency section just had the title renamed. It was a negative review but from the OP's own words, he purposely titled the thread naming 3 escorts who were NOT involved so that the thread could garner more attention. Negatively impacting the searches of those women who by the OPs own words were so good he repeated several times. This is wrong and thankfully the OP did contact a mod for the change. But guys, come on - it should not need to be explained as to why this is wrong.

 

For the indies like me who screen and decline clients on a regular basis, it is NOT right to reply that you will negatively review us. That we are whores, losers, fucking cunts who should die. To continue to harass us. Do I really need to explain this one? Is it because you/they feel you/they can't be held accountable since you/they just discontinue communication? Is that why you/they feel that you/they can get away with it? Because I can tell you that there are these men on this board right now, reading this thread. I will bet money on it.

 

For those who have taken things a little past the normal SP/Client relationship, threaten to review negatively when she breaks things off is wrong too. Yes - even though you had a relationship, it is wrong. Why? Because it is wrong to try an get revenge after any relationship, but here, trying to destroy her business is wrong and a form of sexual harassment. Even worse are the guys who only do it to threaten and have no intention of actually doing it. That is just downright abusive, but that is another topic.

 

 

 

Boundary pushing

 

I just read an Ottawa review from a guy who was given a clear list of services and restrictions by an SP. Digits on vag only and no greek. So question for the class, does that mean to you that her ass is off limits? Is that what you understand to be the case with her after knowing that? So that would mean then, that trying to stick your fingers in her ass would mean that you are certainly not listening to her saying NO ASS PLAY. Let me make this very clear, that right there folks is a form of sexual assault. YES, yes it is. Why? Because you already knew the answer was NO. You should not have tried. Period. End Stop.

 

This is not a case of "guys can't do anything with a woman without being labelled a predator if she doesn't like something". That is not this at all. Yes, the way of making a pass at a lady has changed. 100% it has. It is no longer acceptable to physically make a sexual pass without getting consent PRIOR. You need to be asking for a yes instead of waiting for a no. That is the new rules. But in the case above, he already got the no and went for it anyways. That is 100% wrong.

 

Here is another example to show why getting a yes first instead of waiting for a no is the new rule and should be followed. In a thread on another board about FaceFucking and MPA's, some men were under the impression that the best way to obtain that knowledge was to just try and stick your tongue in her pussy during the body slide. Ummm no. Sorry but just no. NOT at all the right way to do it. The right way is to say " hey, that is a mighty fine pussy, you might if I take a lick?" Why, because she is an MPA, and while many of them offer lots of extras, they are not known as FS providers. You need to ask what they are. Not just sample and see if she says no.

 

I personally think with DATY, some men think they are doing the girl a favour so it should be ok, but that is just not the case. We already had a thread here about SP's and their personal desire to cum in a session. There were quite a few who said no. That would not be any different for an MPA, and honestly, why does any of that need explaining. No individual has the right to decide the sexual pleasure of another. And this is paid service so you are not, nor ever "doing her a favour". A favour would be sucking off the next guy in line so she can go get a latte.

 

 

Please let me make this clear one more time. Since this industry revolves around sex, pretty much anything you do that goes against what is considered proper behaviour, is not just a simple "oops', say sorry and move on from the "mistake". No. It is sexual assault, sexual harassment, sexual misconduct. Those are serious terms, serious words, serious actions, seriously negative behaviour. I could go on and on with examples, but there really are just too many to post. I am sure other ladies can fill in some examples of harassment, and sexual assault that they have experienced. Sexual Assault is not just the act of rape. It is so much more than that, and people need to wake up to that fact.

 

I can promise you if more women were treated properly in this industry, you would have way less jaded, angry and mechanical escorts. It wouldn't take them all out, but most escorts don't start out that way. They are just pushed to the limits and beyond and after time, you can only put up with so much before you start dishing it back out. That is not right for anyone. Escort or client.

 

So please don't be that guy. Just don't. Ask. That is all you have to do. Ask and then follow. It is not hard. I promise you it is not hard. Let's make 2018 a better year for women in the workplace and that includes this industry.