sexual assault?

[Kilt Boy 29353]

I know some guys are going to laugh at this, but some will take the extra second to see that this is a valid question for a troubling situation.
I'd like to know if you consider this to be sexual assault, and when the line was crossed.
First of all, I'm fine with how the situation was resolved. I was a bit uncomfortable at worst.

Note: I wear a kilt every day. This has lead to some interesting situations in the strip clubs I go to. The girls tend to get a bit handsy, but I don't mind that at all. If they know I'm not paying for anything extra, they know where to draw the line. At the end of the day, I'm not asking for anything past standard, and they aren't going to put in much effort beyond that except to maybe satisfy their curiosity.

This all happened the other day at my regular club. I don't push the limits. I don't go for extras. I go to have a couple of beers, to experience a good show, and to take a few girls to the champagne room for standard lap dances. Everyone I've been with knows this and I try to make sure that any new girl I want to try knows in advance.

I was having a good time with a favourite I hadn't seen in a while. Let's call her Marge. She called over a new girl because I showed some interest. Let's call her Selma. We had a bunch of drinks and a lot of fun conversation and after they had both been on stage, I took them upstairs. Normally I try to do one-at-a-time and suggested this, but Marge convinced me that this would be a lot of fun. Fine. We were all a little tipsy, so I agreed.

We went to one of the couches in the VIP area and got down to it. Selma started in with the regular and expected action, but Marge went right to work on me, flipping the kilt up and using her hands and generously appointed torso area. When I got the idea what she was after, I guided her away and reminded her that "I don't do that in the club." I said that to her several times. She tried again. I pushed her away a second time, but not before she had inserted a digit in a very personal space. I was still enjoying the tender ministrations of Selma, so that was fine. Marge said, "Yeah, I know what you want." I replied, "You have no idea what I want." She went over to look at her phone for a minute. She started right up again when she came back, but this time she was trying to put a condom on me that she had in her mouth! I had to push Selma off me before I could get to my feet to get away from Marge. Selma finally noticed what was going on and said that she would go downstairs so we could be alone. I told them both that we were done, paid them for the 3 songs, then went downstairs.

I like them both and will try again with both, singly. I was just so completely surprised by Marge's insistence on adhering to her agenda that I lost control of the situation. She just went ahead with what she assumed that every man would want and didn't listen to me at all.

To sum up, I said 'NO', but she tried anyway. If the roles were reversed, most people would be quick to judge this as sexual assault. Remember, there are no gradations to sexual assault; it's yes or no. Sure, it was a situation where I was paying for attention and affection, but there are still rules.

What do you think?

[MisterNB 2]

I think you are right somehow, strip clubs thats why i dont go there but if you put the situation backward,... we guys would be jailed lol in most case scenarios.

Strippers they have freedom in ther heads the club back them i guess and they control the actions, not us .. otherwise we all know what would happen 😆 

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

Personally consent goes both ways. I always check in with my clients often to ensure they are comfortable as we move through our encounter.  So if someone wants just a hand job I don't push it to go further.

However, I'm not fully aware of cr platforms so can't really comment on that. The fact that you felt uncomfortable and said no, then yes I would say it's sexual assault. Not everyone wants a lady to do more then he asked for. So, my vote is yes.

Sorry this happened.

[Guest]

    While I appreciate physical attention, I tend to get vigilant when it comes out of the blue. I was robbed once(also caught one in the act) and stayed quite alert since. When things feels unusual, I try to remember where I am and check if I got everything. Things that can be interpreted as affection are often a way to distract and take advantage. If things don't feel right, there nothing wrong in removing yourself from the situation.

     You luckily were with someone who wasn't on it and had an happy finish. If it would have been two ladies in cahoots, the outcome could have been much different.

[lesuisse1234 186]

Thank you for sharing. If the roles would be  reversed. I don’t think they would be happy. No means no it doesn’t matter who is saying it. Yes it is sexual assault.

[Guest PetraPegasus]

What happened to you is 100% sexual assault. You did not want the tea, but they tried to force the tea down your throat, essentially. Assuming that every man wants this is sexist, despite the fact that you are paying for songs in a strip club. No consent is no consent. 

[Mikeyboy 27134]

I think the are a few interesting questions here.  I think most would agree that by most definitions that yes it was a sexual assault.  You not only didn't give consent,  you were vocal in your opposition and that was ignored. 

Is there a double standard in how it is treated? Yes.  I think that is pretty clear as well.  All of us would be talking about it differently if the roles were reversed here. 

Should there be a double standard? Now that's the really interesting question in my opinion.  (And one I hope to simulate a debate on,  not stir controversy.  Here goes 😉 )

I don't want to belittle your experience at all here because how you were treated was wrong.  We all need to recognize consent or the lack there of in all situations.  The problem with the comparison of the role reversal comes down to this question: Did you ever feel you were in danger? Once you decided you were pushed past your limit,  you physically exerted your option of ending it.  (I applaud you for that by the way). The point is that most women would not have had that option in a similar situation.  Especially with 2 men forcing themselves on her. There is a fear element involved that doesn't sound like was present in your situation.  The fact that you have stated that you will still see both if them again in the future, shows a certain level of complacency.  

Again,  not trying to make light because you are right to take it very seriously.  Is it fair to question if the situation should be treated the same in a role reversal? I guess I'm arguing that the (on average) size difference between men and women makes it different on some level.  

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[Phaedrus 209521]

So... someone tried to do perform a sex act on you that you didn't want. You told them to stop. They carried on trying anyway. That's pretty much a textbook description of a sexual assault, isn't it?

The fact that you don't feel too bad about it and it didn't have too much effect on you is a good thing, but it doesn't change what it is.

[Jasmine Rain 23126]

1000% that is a sexual.assault and she should have been reported to the club. 

 

The same thing for women customers who think that because they are woman they can touch. 

 

I hate to say it but women need to learn that sexual assault goes both ways. 

 

I am sorry that you had to experience this. 

[Kilt Boy 29353]

Honestly, it was more surprising than anything at the time.. I had to deal with similar situations every day when I was dancing, but I'm 30+ years out of practice.

Like Mikeyboy said, i was struck by the reversal of roles and thought that it deserved closer examination and discussion.

Jessica is right about reporting her, even though she is a favourite. Everone can have an off day, but I think this shows a behaviour that might need to be monitored.

Now I'm going to have a dozen guys on my tits saying, "You asshole! A quick, cheap handjob is exactly why I go to a strip club!" Yeah, well ... you shouldn't. I understand from both sides why it happens, but this is an inappropriate place.

 

BTW, she texted me back saying, "Sorry was a bit drunk". I don't really feel that I need to make a further comment on that.

[Genevieve Marceau 68000]

It is definitely sexual assault, and I am very sorry that this happened to you. Women can be aggressors too, and it is more frequent that you would think. I know, I have been on the receiving of pushy women too, who had ZERO concept of boundaries....

 

This remind me of a situation here on Lyla. A client posted about an encounter where his provider sat on his erected penis without putting a condom first, and without asking if that was ok. The client kind of took it as a sign that she was romantically attracted to him, but in my mind I was like "darling, you were raped". 

[Katherine of Halifax 113932]

This is all troublesome in may ways . Mikey

[peacectryguy 12547]

I agree with others that this is definitely a form of sexual assault. There really isn't a "grey area" in that. Obviously, alcohol played a factor here and she acknowledged that in her halfhearted apology. But perhaps someone should sit down with her and ask her to think about how she would feel or react if the shoe was on the other foot.

I've never really done the strip club experience. It's just not something I have any interest in but from what I understand, they have pretty strict rules about how far us gents can go and we are in big trouble if we cross boundaries. I don't think she should get off the hook here just because people think we are just a bunch of horn dogs and pervs because we are men.

[rob_otteast 142]

I won't directly reply to the question but just want to make the comment that I am surprised that anything like this happened at all. I haven't been to a strip place in over 30 years, but back when I did go (in both Toronto and Montreal), physical contact of any kind was strictly off limits. I guess times have changed. I need to get out more, maybe.

However I would not be keen on this happening in a public place.

[Guest]

    While we're starting to see some progress on the matter(where Human Rights are respected), the notion of consent in adult establishments have too often been loose or borderline inexistant. Some saunas(gay or str8) and swingers clubs have been notorious for this. On the surface most strip clubs have better enforcement. But once in the VIP sections, things get much looser. When I travelled overseas, it wasn't unusual to be groped in night clubs. But the interest was more often on my valuables than my "family jewels". After being told for years to "suck it up", men are women are getting more comfortable to speak up even if expectations of consequences/convictions of this type of crime remains low.

     Objecting loudly and clearly remains the best way to escape this kind of situation. Not always necessary to make a scene. But when polite communication doesn't go through, it's better to be clear and leave no room for interpretations.

     

[Midnite-Energies 110563]

No means no, role reversal or not. The problem comes into play that because of the way things are, there are those (women) that believe if they do it, it's not assault but if a man does, most definitely. If a man had tried this and the woman stopped the situation and he allowed it, she could still report him and he would be charged; perhaps to a lesser degree due to eventually stopping, who's to say. Not knowing the flavor of law at the moment, but from past conversations, a man reporting this situation would be treated as crazy or a trouble maker. The strength, size or gender should not play a role in the situation. Look at all the other things that are popping up in regards to protecting the rights of gender fluid, non gender, gay, women etc. There is no sway here so why should there be in assault matters. Most Caucasian men fall through the cracks on just about any topic unless it's a straight male on male issue. I recently had to deal with a male friend being assaulted by a woman and it was played off as she was provoked (which was truth only in she provoked herself) but had the roles been reversed, it would have been played as complete and utter assault all the way. He's been shamed for reporting it. The world still has a long way to go on many issues and one is respect of EVERYONE, no matter their circumstances. Bottom line, we are all human on the inside not matter how we are shaped on the outside.

 

I'm sorry you were put in this position but even more sorry you have to ask the question of "was it?" This is at least a good forum as most of us have the right view from all the stigma we deal with regularly. If this was a "regular" forum, who knows what type of replies you would have received.

[peacectryguy 12547]

4 hours ago, Midnite-Energies said:

No means no, role reversal or not. The problem comes into play that because of the way things are, there are those (women) that believe if they do it, it's not assault but if a man does, most definitely. If a man had tried this and the woman stopped the situation and he allowed it, she could still report him and he would be charged; perhaps to a lesser degree due to eventually stopping, who's to say. Not knowing the flavor of law at the moment, but from past conversations, a man reporting this situation would be treated as crazy or a trouble maker. The strength, size or gender should not play a role in the situation. Look at all the other things that are popping up in regards to protecting the rights of gender fluid, non gender, gay, women etc. There is no sway here so why should there be in assault matters. Most Caucasian men fall through the cracks on just about any topic unless it's a straight male on male issue. I recently had to deal with a male friend being assaulted by a woman and it was played off as she was provoked (which was truth only in she provoked herself) but had the roles been reversed, it would have been played as complete and utter assault all the way. He's been shamed for reporting it. The world still has a long way to go on many issues and one is respect of EVERYONE, no matter their circumstances. Bottom line, we are all human on the inside not matter how we are shaped on the outside.

 

I'm sorry you were put in this position but even more sorry you have to ask the question of "was it?" This is at least a good forum as most of us have the right view from all the stigma we deal with regularly. If this was a "regular" forum, who knows what type of replies you would have received.

Very well said and I agree. Especially about how this topic would be or is received on more mainstream social media. I've noticed that even making comments on Twitter to escorts that support their need for courtesy and respect will often illicit some negative responses from some men out there. Comments like,"don't be such a pussy." and what-not. Of course, usually from some younger macho dude who wants to be an internet tough guy and somehow thinks this is attractive to women. What they fail to realize is that being a gentleman and treating women with their due respect is actually more "manly" in many women's eyes. I don't need to "act tough" or be an asshole because I am confident in who I am as a man. 

 

[Kilt Boy 29353]

23 hours ago, peacectryguy said:

some younger macho dude who wants to be an internet tough guy and somehow thinks this is attractive to women.

If you want to have some fun, respond to that kind of post by saying, "Oh, you're one of those." Then stop responding. It nullifies their existence and turns their unfocused rage up to eleven. This was the response of a 12-year-old who will not like being pigeon-holed.

 

#offtopic

[Jasmine Rain 23126]

I'm actually beyond the No Means No saying. It implies that you can try and just wait for a NO and that is not right either. 

 

No one should have someone try to touch them without permission first. 

 

Im of the saying of Affirmative Yes. Yes means yes.  This means you actually ask and get a yes first. 

 

Now I get that some have issue with that. They don't get how you ask to kiss someone when it should be natural. There are plenty of ways to make it romantic or sensual or sexual depending on the type encounter you are having. You just need some imagination. 

 

Personally I would rather struggle finding a way to ask first then to make a move and make someone uncomfortable in having them saying no. 

 

I get get that I'm in the minority here but it is happening slowly. California has imposed this and hopefully more with get on board. 

 

Another sort of off topic rant. Sorry.