How do you feel about seeing an escort nationally, versus engaging in sex tourism?

[Nathalie L 112512]

I recently went home to Quebec City for the week, and while eating dinner with family members, my uncle mentioned seeing a sex worker while he was in Cuba (he used the term 'prostitute', of course). The tone of the conversation was light, and many family members were teasing him because he was intoxicated when he saw her. His intoxication resulted in him penetrating her anally without her consent. The situation was 'funny' because he didn't understand why he smelled like shit until getting back to the hotel. It is small solace to know that she stole all his stuff afterward (a small act of resistance that makes me hope she's ok).

 

I was extremely upset at the candid nature with which my family blatantly accepted this series of events. Their tacit complicity was rather revolting and yet, I'm not willing to say they're 'bad people'. There are way too many factors to take into consideration when trying to understand why something like this is 'celebrated'.

 

There are many differences (many) between sex work in Canada, and sex tourism (although I'm not willing to hierarchasize one as 'more' emancipated than the other). People need to take into consideration things like

 

• the global political economy that enables these kinds of environments in the first place,
  
• the World Bank, and IMF (and their loaning policies),
  
• state complicity in the promotion of sex tourism,
  
• patriarchy/misogyny in 'home' states,
  
• the fetishization/eroticization of the sexual 'other',
  
• racism,
  
• a disregard for the lives of certain 'types' of people ('prostitutes' and people of colour, for example)
  

Like I said in a different post (http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=219900#post219900), I'm not willing to say women have no sexual agency, even under conditions of extreme poverty and exploitation.

 

Although I'm not expecting people to admit to engaging in sex tourism (especially after I framed it so negatively by bringing up my recent encounter with it), I wonder what people think about the differences between sex tourism and seeing an escort locally.

 

Please comment on anything I've mentioned that peaks your interest. All of these issues are really important in my opinion.

[rickkm 328]

There are guys who get turned on by the plight/misery of others.....sexual turn ons are varied and this one, sex tourism, is huge. I never participated myself but a lot do. They get their thrills by it, the complete submission, as they view these girls as being at their mercy; sex for food!! I think your uncle could have ben more respectful and discrete also; not a good dinner conversation and I agree with you about why such situations exists in this world. Therefore the difference between a local escort and sex tourism, is simple, one is a choice the other is survival.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

There are guys who get turned on by the plight/misery of others.....sexual turn ons are varied and this one, sex tourism, is huge.

Getting turned on by the misery of others is not something I will judge you for. I believe we have little control over our sexual fetishes. But I will judge an individual for actively participating in the misery of others.

 

I think your uncle could have ben more respectful and discrete also; not a good dinner conversation and I agree with you about why such situations exists in this world.

I think maybe the bigger faux-pas was anally raping the woman he paid, if that's what indeed happened.

Therefore the difference between a local escort and sex tourism, is simple, one is a choice the other is survival.

This is crude and inaccurate. Do you really think that there aren't women right here in Ottawa participating in the sex trade as a desperate means of survival? Do you think there aren't women in other countries who use sex work as a means of acquiring wealth? That was a huge generalization!

[Kubrickfan 12836]

Good post.

 

Boy, that's a big topic and Nathalie, I see you are trying to scope out the topic in your post. Obviously what you describe as "sexual tourism" is abhorrent and sick. But what about the people (like yours truly) who have an encounter or two while visiting Canada on business? Or some other area that has more liberal laws (Amsterdam or some of the European countries)? Also, are we going to assume just because its legal, well, it must be OK and safe?

 

This is something I would never engage in the United States as it is, for the most part, illegal. But I hope because I have had the honor of meeting with some of the lovely ladies of cerb that I'm not considered a "Sexual tourist."

[Mister T 45020]

Some random thoughts ....

 

Sexual tourism (i am referring here to many "destinations" that include Thailand, Cuba, Dominican Rebublic to name a few) is an extremely complex issue at the core and is not limited to seeing woman. It has been discussed and exposed in various medias, and in various forms, but is still problematic as some "enjoy" using the misery of others and see this as a thing that is "ok" to do abroad, but would not do here in the country. This, of course is an oversimplification.....

 

I agree that In some cases, acquiring wealth is a goal, in others, and in others, survival is a goal, regardless of country. If survival is a goal, can we then really talk of choice? It's not because we are in Canada that it is rosier here for some.

 

...... Therefore the difference between a local escort and sex tourism, is simple, one is a choice the other is survival.

 

Even in Canada, some are caught in survival mode and have no choice in doing so; poverty, being forced by someone else etc ..... We are part of the G20 but still poverty is rampant, hypocraticly hidden and overlooked. I would use care before saying the the difference is simple, there are more elements to take into consideration.

 

This is, by and large, a complex issue indeed. Just trying to wrap my head around it ... well....

[rickkm 328]

Originally Posted by rickkm

Originally Posted by Megan's Touch......This is crude and inaccurate. Do you really think that there aren't women right here in Ottawa participating in the sex trade as a desperate means of survival? Do you think there aren't women in other countries who use sex work as a means of acquiring wealth? That was a huge generalization!

 

My dear Megan....lol....you are so fiesty....We come from the land of plenty....these third world countries are not; there are very little opportunities, if any at all, for them and a lot are simply reduced to begging etc.....and sex for those girls is a survival tool for them and often for their families also. This is not to say that some may not do it by choice, good for them, but we are talking in general terms here. Yes, there are some in every nation but not to the extent referrred to in Natalie's post, not even remotely close. It is not a huge generalization at all, it's the simple truth.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

My dear Megan....lol....you are so fiesty....

You got that right! ;)

We come from the land of plenty....these third world countries are not; there are very little opportunities, if any at all, for them and a lot are simply reduced to begging etc.....and sex for those girls is a survival tool for them and often for their families also.

Land of plenty for whom? Not everyone equally, that's for sure. Ever looked to see how much a single woman with children on welfare gets? There are many opportunities in Canada, but these are not equal opportunities.

[rickkm 328]

Originally Posted by MisterT

Even in Canada, some are caught in survival mode and have no choice in doing so;

poverty, being forced by someone else etc ..... We are part of the G20 but still poverty is rampant, hypocraticly hidden and overlooked. I would use care before saying the the difference is simple, there are more elements to take into consideration.

 

I agree with you MisterT to the extent that we do have all the world's problems except that here, the girls have choices, the girls in these countries simply don't. Our social programs etc... do offer hope and assistance and even training as we have a strong economy and jobs/careers opportunities that they can aspire to....,these girls in these countries simply don't have that out. Although some still fall through the cracks here as we don't live in a perfect world,.. but the plight of the girls in these third world countries when compared to us, is Goliath vs David...

[roamingguy 300292]

I'm just curious as to why the focus on seeing an escort nationally as opposed to engaging in sex tourism...I assume that is taking a trip internationally to engage in sex. If just taking a trip qualifies as sex tourism, then every encounter I have had required a trip, to Hamilton, Toronto, Kingston and Ottawa.

For seeing an escort internationally, it does depend on where. If it is going to a country where it is a case of woman, or girls are exploited by others, with little or no chance of legal sanctions, I'm definitely against it. By the same token if someone is seeing woman or girls in Canada who are exploited, definitely against it. And in the case of girls and boys (my definition, those who are under age) any guy who would even see one needs to be strung up...I don't care if in Canada or worldwide, pedophillia is wrong. Hurting kids (and underage they are kids IMHO) by getting your sexual gratification from them is sick.

Thats one reason my comfort zone for seeing ladies is 25 years or older, but I digress.

One thing about seeing ladies in Canada, you have resources, like CERB, and the ladies' websites to help provide you with an educated opinion about whether the ladies are consenting or being exploited. There are some where I look at the profile, red flags and alarm bells go off, and I stay away. Others, you can see that the lady is established, and you are entering a consenting mutually benificial arrangement

Some ramblings over my second cup of coffee

RG

[Guest e**m***h]

I agree, a good post. Thoughtful and challenging, Nathalie. And Kubrickfan's thought makes me wonder too.

 

Gets in many ways at the heart of what has confused me about sexual services since I joined this board. Over time I have learned that some services can be full of sexual, social and commercial health in the sense that there does not something necessarily exploitative going on - the participants are in a position of sufficiency to fully choose the transaction and what happens within it - or not. Of course, things could always improve from a legal rights point of view to recognize and support these generally benign transactions.

 

Clearly, this is nothing even close to the practices that create exploitation on the scale of sex tourism. Exploitation of any type can have awful effects upon human beings period, but combined with the deeper vulnerabilities of sexual harm - I am not sure it gets bleaker or more disrespectful in the human story.

 

Maybe I am oversimplifying by pointing to exploitation as a dividing line somehow, but exploitation itself is a really complicated thing - why we do it and allow it so prevalently, as you say, even celebrate it. We are an odd species full of grace and beauty, and then ugly and hugely disappointing all at the same time.

[etasman2000 15994]

You didn't define what you mean by Sex Tourism however by way of your preamble I take it to mean visiting a SP while traveling outside the country, potentially to a 3rd world country.

 

We have to be careful in transplanting our 'western' world view when discussing Sex Tourism.

 

In many cases Sex Tourism occur due to two simple fact: poverty and culture.

 

Poverty in drawing the ladies into the industry and a supportive culture. Poverty is a well known well understood variable one that we find here as well. I want to focus on the supportive culture.

 

The main regions for Sex Tourism are the Latin Americas, Caribbean, Asia particularly Thailand, Philippine and to a lesser extent China, Eastern Europe and some parts of Western Europe particularly countries where prostitution is legal.

 

Asia: culturally mistresses and multiple wives are an accepted norm and a mark of the wealthy. These women have a place in the society and aren't look down upon.

 

Religiously, other then the Christian transplant, Buddhism and Hinduism are open to all forms of sexuality as long as no harm comes to the participants.

 

Caribbean:A large part of the Caribbean follow the Dutch law where Prostitution is legal. This removes one of the stigmas, plus it is regulated.

 

In Aruba the ladies have weekly medical checks, can only work for 3 months on a visa and cannot work in the Aruba for 2 (maybe 3 now) years after. Ladies then go home and rotate thru the various islands.

 

Most of the ladies are from Central and South Americas in particular Columbia and Brazil. It is true there is self-selection here as these women have to respond to job ads to be able to obtain the work visa for sex work. There is no trickery nor false pretenses, they know why they are on the islands.

 

There is also an openness and dichotomy to the situation as well. The ladies openly display pictures of their families (sympathy play?), speak openly about why they are there, have Catholic saints/altar displayed in the rooms.

 

Latin Americas: Ignoring Brazil, there is little support culturally. Some places like Ecuador and Honduras still frown on public display of affection. Some countries do have a reputation for ladies looking for a gringo husband which visitors do exploit. There is an interesting back-lash as well, recent years guys have been known to be strung along for money while the ladies privately kept a local BF on the side.

 

Eastern Europe: Culturally there seems to be an openness to sex, perhaps an offshoot to the suppression of Christian morals under the Communist regime, not to say there aren't core Christian groups.

 

There is no shame in sex work and it is a means to an end which is typically to obtain a university degree. Understand that with the opening of the European borders the university qualification allows for greater work mobility later.

 

Many of the Eastern European flock to places like Germany, Holland, UK, countries where sex work is legal, under work permits both for a chance to travel and the exchange rate. Caveat: this is also a self-selecting group.

 

Western Europe: Dependent on the country. Some like Sweden it would be foolish to even attempt it, while Germany has legal brothels.

 

Unfortunately it is rare to find a local engage in Sex Work and all indication point to the influx of Eastern European ladies as oppose the any cultural stigma.

 

Western Europe was my first encounter to the concept: i can pick a guy up at a bar or i can get paid to get laid.

 

Under the definition of Sex Tourism propose in the beginning I willingly admit to have engage in this activity in Central America, Asia, Western Europe (both with Western and Eastern Europes SP), and Caribbean. In fact this was my mode of operation before joining cerb with a preference for Western Europe.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

I agree with you MisterT to the extent that we do have all the world's problems except that here, the girls have choices, the girls in these countries simply don't. Our social programs etc... do offer hope and assistance and even training as we have a strong economy and jobs/careers opportunities that they can aspire to....,these girls in these countries simply don't have that out. Although some still fall through the cracks here as we don't live in a perfect world,..

The girls have choices? It would seem to me that you are ignorant (I don't mean this pejoratively) of social services in Canada and the situations faced by many women.

 

A single woman on welfare with a child would receive about $12,000 annually. Do you think it's possible to support yourself and a child on that amount? Do you realize that the waiting list for social housing in Ottawa is about 4 years?

 

Also, did you know that if a woman is arrested for prostitution in Ottawa she is "red-zoned" which means she can't enter the entire broad area where she committed the offense? This results in:

-Losing social housing or any housing she may have.

-Not be allowed to access food banks.

-Not being able to access community services.

-Not being allowed to see her counsellor or social worker.

-Not being able to access methadone clinics or other harm reduction initiatives.

 

Many women also face barriers seeking these services including language barriers, cultural barriers, transportation barriers, etc.

 

It would seem many privileged people are blissfully ignorant of what is going on in our own backyward, and I say this as someone who was raised upper-middle class.

[etasman2000 15994]

Poverty.....now that is a polarizing topic if there was ever one.

 

Poverty is both real and relative at the same time. I will not discount the fact that living below the poverty line isn't difficult, it is.

 

Do women (and men) world wide engage in sex work due to poverty.

 

Yes, they do.

 

Is there an element of choice in the matter ? This is a tricky question, Sweden believes there is. Any individual caught engaging in sex work will be place under rehabilitation courses and helped to obtain 'legitimate' work. Let not get into what happens to their clients!

 

In this case true choice has been removed.

 

To fully understand the poverty / choice debate we have to broaden our views to include morality, social support etc.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

P

Germany believes that since sex work is legal it qualifies as potential work for welfare recipients. Take it or loss your benefits.

Do you have a source for this?

 

I recall reading this case, and my understanding of the conclusion was that women could be required to go to an interview, but to force a woman to engage in sex work would be a violation of her bodily integrity.

[rickkm 328]

Originally Posted by Megan's Touch

A single woman on welfare with a child would receive about $12,000 annually. Do you think it's possible to support yourself and a child on that amount? Do you realize that the waiting list for social housing in Ottawa is about 4 years?

 

I agree, as lots need to be done but imagine if these women instead of 12,000$ had nothing!! Checkmate Megan!! xox

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

I agree, as lots need to be done but imagine if these women instead of 12,000$ had nothing!! Checkmate Megan!! xox

If you had said "women in Canada have it better than some third world countries" I would have agreed with you.

 

But you didn't. You said that women in Canada have a choice. This is simply not always the case.

[etasman2000 15994]

I recall reading this case' date=' and my understanding of the conclusion was that women could be required to go to an interview, but to force a woman to engage in sex work would be a violation of her bodily integrity.[/quote']

 

i think we might have the same source. i didn't read the conclusion of the case only the general impression. i'll look for it again.

 

*********

 

Snopes.com has indicated the report was False. I have retracted my statement above. For reference:

 

http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp

[VedaSloan 119179]

Originally Posted by MisterT

Even in Canada, some are caught in survival mode and have no choice in doing so;

poverty, being forced by someone else etc ..... We are part of the G20 but still poverty is rampant, hypocraticly hidden and overlooked. I would use care before saying the the difference is simple, there are more elements to take into consideration.

 

I agree with you MisterT to the extent that we do have all the world's problems except that here, the girls have choices, the girls in these countries simply don't. Our social programs etc... do offer hope and assistance and even training as we have a strong economy and jobs/careers opportunities that they can aspire to....,these girls in these countries simply don't have that out. Although some still fall through the cracks here as we don't live in a perfect world,.. but the plight of the girls in these third world countries when compared to us, is Goliath vs David...

 

Choice is such a loaded term. Even the most poverty-ridden woman--regardless of her location--on some level makes a choice, even out of what few choices she may have. And to assume that Western women have more choices? WRONG.

 

The girls have choices? It would seem to me that you are ignorant (I don't mean this pejoratively) of social services in Canada and the situations faced by many women.

 

A single woman on welfare with a child would receive about $12' date='000 annually. Do you think it's possible to support yourself and a child on that amount? Do you realize that the waiting list for social housing in Ottawa is about 4 years?

 

Also, did you know that if a woman is arrested for prostitution in Ottawa she is "red-zoned" which means she can't enter the entire broad area where she committed the offense? This results in:

-Losing social housing or any housing she may have.

-Not be allowed to access food banks.

-Not being able to access community services.

-Not being allowed to see her counsellor or social worker.

-Not being able to access methadone clinics or other harm reduction initiatives.

 

Many women also face barriers seeking these services including language barriers, cultural barriers, transportation barriers, etc.

 

It would seem many privileged people are blissfully ignorant of what is going on in our own backyward, and I say this as someone who was raised upper-middle class.[/quote']

 

I can't give you more rep, but as always, you've outlined what I'm thinking so much more succinctly!

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I don't travel much and I really dislike airports and air planes. I am generally against sex tourism because it is my understanding that most of the sex trade workers in the poverty striken countries like Cuba and Thailand ...... are forced into the trade either as a result of absolute poverty and for survival or forced by someone (a pimp). Likely same scenario exists for many sex workers here in Canada too but I believe there are also many cases where escorting is a choice of profession. Here I am very careful as whom I see but I don't have that privilege overseas where likely all are forced for one reason or another.

 

Having said all above, if prostitution becomes illegal in Canada (if even outcall escorts become illegal) I will not go against the law. in spite of what I said above I will likely consider sex tourism but will choose a country equivalent to Canada (Britain, Australia....) where some of sex workers choose the profession rather than forced as the case may be in a poor country like Cuba or South East Asia.

 

Additional Comments:

 

Land of plenty for whom? Not everyone equally' date=' that's for sure. Ever looked to see how much a single woman with children on welfare gets? There are many opportunities in Canada, but these are not equal opportunities.[/quote']

 

I agree that distribution of wealth is not equal in Canada but Canada is in a much better relative position than many countries in the world where survival is the real issue. In no country opportunities are equal (it never was even in former communist countries), however, the essentials (food, a roof overhead, access to health care) exist for all citizens in Canada to some extend which is different with other citizens (about 3 billions) where sickness may mean death and starvation is widespread and hunger and homelessness is the norm. While in Canada survival may mean more food on the table or a better roof overhead for most poor citizens, however, in many countries it is a matter of life over death, regretfully.

 

There is enough resources for every citizen of the earth to have the minimum even more. The reason that poverty exists and so much is because wealth is not distributed fairly. Some (a minority of about 10%) keep some 90-95% of the wealth to themselves and greed even for more while some 50% of citizens of this planet have absolutely nothing. A very unfair world but I believe that it is slowly but surely is changing for the better.

[fortunateone 156618]

I think it is a bit too simple to suggest that the only reason sex tourism exists is to take advantage of the disadvantaged. In many cases, it seems directly related to the old review board standby of VFM and bang for the buck. Countless travelers will ignore the fact it costs them 1500-2000 to spend a week in Thailand, to brag that an overnight with a local sp cost them 100 bucks, and for the price of food and shopping, she stays with you thru the next day, where for another 100, unlimited sogs for the night.

 

It seems of no interest to them what motivates the women to work, just that they seem friendly and available at all times, and for much much less than what sps in Canada charge. It is the money charged by Canadian sps that seem to drive them, along with other reasons. In some cases, they seem to want to use this information to try to drive down rates, which is weird, again because it is pretty expensive in the first place to travel outside of the country.

[mrrnice2 157005]

Wow. Just when I thought that I was coming to terms with the industry and my role in it as it relates to the women who are in it, I read all of this and I am back to questioning again.

 

First of all, and again it may be a stereotype, but when I think of international sex tourism, I think of Thailand in particular and stories of underage girls, girls and women in poverty being forced by others to participate, and abuse by "western" men. When I read of these sorts of things, it actually sickens me and just because of me being me, I cannot understand how any man could treat any woman in that manner.

 

So internationally, if that is what it is to be involved, then no thank you, and I want no part or association with it.

 

If by internationally one is simply describing activity similar to what I have experienced through Cerb members, then I really do not see any distinction between other countries and what is available in Canada.

 

My questioning again. This, like many threads has overlaps, but if we look back at the stereotype thread of a few months back, I wrote that I would feel terrible if I were "taking advantage," of a woman because of her economic circumstance.

 

I would like to think, that the women in the industry here are here because of personal preference, their desire to have their own business, their interest in meeting a variety of people, and their enjoyment of sex to whatever level they are comfortable with.

 

Now again after reading so much above, I ask myself if I am being totally naive and just rationalizing away my concerns.

 

Like I say, the threads overlap, but here I am wondering again.

 

Just my thoughts.

[etasman2000 15994]

I would like to think, that the women in the industry here are here because of personal preference, their desire to have their own business, their interest in meeting a variety of people, and their enjoyment of sex to whatever level they are comfortable with.

 

Poverty is a constant companion........

 

Not saying all of it is poverty driven, I've been fortunate enough to chat with a few who are here for fun.