Morality and paying for sex: what's new?

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

WrinkledInTime recently posted an article in the "News" section of this board about Melissa Farley's recent so-called research, published as "The John Next Door" in the latest edition of Newsweek magazine.

 

Berlin pointed us to an article at the Good Vibrations Magazine site, "Melissa Farley and the US Government Want You to Stop Buying Sex" written by Laura Agustin. This article centers on the idea promoted by Farley and others that the best way to end human trafficking is to end the demand for prostitution.

 

Of course the "End the Demand" group never mentions, let alone comes to terms with, the fact that most human trafficking has nothing to do with the sex trade but has lots to do with domestic labour, industrial labour, farm labour and construction. The "End the Demand" folks really want everyone to stop having non-marital sex.

 

The thing I find striking is that Farley and the US government think that society needs to deliver a much stronger message to men--young men, in particular, for some reason--that it's just wrong to pay for sex. Period.

 

Gosh.

 

I thought that society was already pretty clear about that. Most of the clients I've discussed this with have told me that it was one of the hurdles they had to get over: the idea that there's something wrong with paying for sex. I sure grew up thinking that there was something wrong with selling it!

 

Is there anyone here who was raised to think that it isn't wrong to pay for sex? That is, that you get sex by marrying someone, or maybe by having committed relationship that includes sex, or maybe by being lucky enough to be offered sex in some other way, but not by paying for it? My impression has been that many men have been encouraged to believe that only "losers" (defined in various ways) pay for sex and that no one else should.

 

Thoughts?

[Andee 220524]

I've met men who see nothing wrong with paying me for sex, except they have made it quite clear they wouldn't want their wife, sister or daughter doing it. (To which I laugh, because they "don't get" that perhaps they just hurled a slur at me).

 

My dad is 78 and reminds us he's "old school". When discussing a sibling who was (is) still a virgin now in his 40s, I quite shocked to hear my father say, "When I was young growing up in Montreal, the father would bring the son to the "cat house" and get it over with" (expression followed by some French expletives).

 

I asked him if my grandfather did that for him to which he replied of course not, that he was working at 14 and managed quite well with the ladies. This I believe because my grandmother confirmed that because he had a paycheck, the taverns would serve alcohol to him even at that age.

 

He didn't come right out and admit visiting prostitutes when he was single and in the Air Force and stationed overseas in the 1950s. However, I did hear a conversation about the military boys being issued condoms and how they were as thick as kitchen catchers. He also told me when he was in France he had different girlfriends he would actually "live with" for weeks at time (rather than go home to the barracks on the base). He described how beautiful they were and how they would cook for him, do his laundry, pressed his uniforms. I presume for a fee of course.

 

There were many young women after the war who had no other way of supporting themselves but to offer to be a soldier's "girlfriend". This is how some of them met their spouses, but I'm sure those stories are never told openly at a dinner party. This was happening all over Europe, in France, Germany, Holland, etc.

 

We have never spoken of my involvement in prostitution. It has never come up and I doubt it will because we are like two ships passing in the night. I'm sure my dad would have to look up my home phone before. I think me might have suspected I have done it, but has never called me out on it.

 

I am not sure what his reaction would be, but like everything, some people will justify why it's okay to do something at certain time of their life. I know my father did not cheat on my mother once they got married, but I know he sure had a good time before that, and not without paying for it sometimes along the way.

 

I don't think he'd have any qualms now about admitting his visiting prostitutes, but he downplayed when mom was alive, I believe out of respect for her.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I started a thread laat year that expressed my views and perception about hobbying (and was criticized strongly by some SPs for that). In that thread (which was nominated by many by the way) I said that my perception of hobbying is I buy a gift for my DATE (rendezvous) and I don't perceive that as pay for sex. And that still is my perception and stronger even. Mind you some SPs (even some who criticized me last year) and many members are now using the same word or concept for their paid encounters. I view my encounters as dates and regard my dates as someone's daughter or sister and do my best so that she would enjoy the date as much as I do and have her as guest and treat her with full respect like a guest at my home.

 

In fact the extreme elements in the government are now using the same principals (pay for sex, exploitation of human bodies, abuse......) to make prostitution illegal in this country and a private bill will be before parliament soon. If the perception was like mine and that is we hobbyists and SPs have dates with each other and we are willing participants who have matually a fun full of joy encounter and we exchanged gifts for our time (like a BF taking a GF to a dinner and have sex later) these backward elements would have never been able to convince the public and the MPs in the parliament to support or pass this bill.

 

To answer the OP YES it is wrong to have sex for money or pay for sex if the lady is NOT a willing participant (forced into either by someone or extreme need for money) or if one of the participants in the encounter is not happy about the other side or attracted too and is doing it because of extreme need for the money or if she hates what she does but do it for extreme need for money to buy drugs or ask for services that the lady do not wish to do but does it because of need for money or sex with underaged or conduct what I perceive as inhuman sex acts on the other side (especially if she is under the influence of drugs) because she needs money and have to agree because of her need or be abusive or violent towards the date.

 

NO there is nothing wrong to pay for sex as a gift for her time if she is a willing adult participant, if you treat her like your guest with utmost respect and if you do your best to make her fell good and that she enjoys the encounter.

 

Any bill before the parliament or new related law must only ban the former (and rightly so for clients and pimps to be jailed or heavily fined) and the latter should be decriminalized.

[Guest s******ecan****]

Great post Samantha, and well said. Much more exploitation in this world is done by the likes of Nike, Levis Strauss, and countless other corporate entities that pay wages akin to slave labour. Recently part of the Wikileaks data dump of US diplomatic messages exposed the fact that the Obama administration actually pressured the Gov't of Haiti to scrap a bill that would have raised the mininmum wage there from 24 cents an hour to 64 cents. This was done to keep Levis Strauss happy.

[twoblues 258]

I was never raised either way to believe it was right or wrong to pay for sex. As someone else mentioned, I usually pay for dinner, etc...does that mean that someone owes me sex? No.

 

"Paying for sex" helps me avoid the hurdles and I get right to the the endgame. Whether I give that money to a restaurant and hotel or directly to an experienced provider...I would rather pay for the experience a provider can...provide.

 

I see no shame in it, yet I see many who do see a shame in it...they're just prudes who are jealous :p

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

Thanks, friends.

 

I want to be clear that I'm not saying there is anything wrong with paying for sex. Obviously that's not what I think. But our culture has embraced the idea that there is something wrong with doing this. Not because it may be s exploitative of paid companions; not because it may contribute to inequality, inequity and violence against women; not because it might encourage men to think of women as objects or playthings; but simply because it's just not right to pay for sex. Paying for dinner and a movie is fine, with or without sex afterward (or before). But explicit, clear transactions involving the exchange of money for sex with someone like me are deemed somehow to be wrong in and of themselves.

 

High school vocational counselling never suggests considering prostitution as a viable, fulfilling profession, after all.

 

So, my question is not whether you think it's okay to pay for sex, but whether you were ever encouraged to think this when you were growing up.

[da2root 871]

So, my question is not whether you think it's okay to pay for sex, but whether you were ever encouraged to think this when you were growing up.

 

I wasn't encouraged or discouraged to think it was ok to pay for sex; rather my parent (single mom) raised me believing a woman's body is HER's to decide what she wants to do.

 

I grew up in a VERY conservative city, anti-abortion, stuff like that and my mom raised me to be "pro-choice". A woman's body is her's to do with as she wants to as long as she is making an informed decision that she WANTS to do.

[fortunateone 156618]

I agree, the majority of the population would be discouraged from thinking it is ok to pay for (or be paid for) sex. Given some of the insults thrown at sps (by guys calling them up for services mind you), nothing about that attitude has really changed.

 

I don't think changing laws will change attitudes, make this profession more attractive as a career choice, and there probably won't be a table at the Job Fair any time soon from the local mps and agencies.

 

The idea that decrim or regulation will change any of that is a pretty bad joke by abolitionists imo.

[Phaedrus 209521]

So, my question is not whether you think it's okay to pay for sex, but whether you were ever encouraged to think this when you were growing up.

 

I don't know that I was ever encouraged to think this; I think it's more that the expectation of society was that I just *would* think this.

 

Which was fine, until I actually started thinking :)

[roamingguy 300292]

Growing up, I was never really discouraged nor encouraged to "pay for sex"

My only advice when it came to sex was words to the effects that if you spend the night with a woman, be prepared to marry her. The reasoning, if you got her pregnant, well unwed mothers were unheard of, in fact single parent families were unheard of.

Pretty much though, the so called attitude against prostitution that I heard of is that it is a last resort for guys who have to pay for it. Mind you, I've seen guys who "haven't paid for it" and been involved in relationships/marriages, which when they broke up cost them their homes, savings etc etc etc...which is why I maintain paying for sex is a lot cheaper than sex for free.

One thought occurs to me though, I recall not all that long ago, the on-line dating sites were sort of looked down upon. But they have gained acceptance over time. Maybe, and I might just be a cock-eyed optimist here, but maybe escorting will begin to gain the same acceptance (and I use dating sites only for an analogy, I don't consider seeing escorts as dating in the same sense)

Now one time, seeing prostitutes was accepted openly, and no one faulted or snickered at a guy who went to the local brothel. That's when I was in Germany with the Forces. Every Friday guys would go into town (Baden-Baden), some to drink, some tried to get into the casino, and some into the brothel. I knew once back from Germany I was going to university, so my bucks were being saved so I didn't go (thinking with my big head at that young an age) But finally, after being talked into it, I decided to go. Alas, there was a private party that night, so it was many many many many years later that I saw my first SP

Bottom line, if it is consensual between two or more adults, no coercion/explotation, and no one is geting hurt, what is the big deal. It is consensual sex, why is there a problem with that

Some ramblings for whatever they are worth

RG

[castle 38816]

I personally don't listen to anything U.S authorities have to say on the matter of sexual well being for one simple reason. Youtube. Hear me out, we can see all manners of violence on youtube, Saddam Hussein's execution was even up there for a while, not to mention clips from some of the most violent movies you can imagine....but boobies? A big no no on youtube. What can be more beautiful and natural then a pair of breasts?

 

American culture just seems to be really backward and closed minded when it comes to what is "appropriate". It seems like all manners of violence is perfectly acceptable but something as natural and (if done properly) safe as sex, is still a taboo there.

[etasman2000 15994]

American culture just seems to be really backward and closed minded when it comes to what is "appropriate". It seems like all manners of violence is perfectly acceptable but something as natural and (if done properly) safe as sex, is still a taboo there.

 

Sex ?!? What about something as natural as nursing a baby ?

[bcguy42 38594]

Umm... as the resident American here, I would like to defend my country's attitudes vis a vis sex and violence.

 

Alas.. I cannot. They are way too screwed up to defend. I was raised in small town/rural America in a relatively liberal family. At the age where I was getting interested in trying to buy Playboy (gasp!) it was very acceptable, even expected, that I would take a gun and blow holes in any critter that slowed down. But to actually see nekkid breasts? Everyone threw a fit! My parents, my friend's parents, the guy that actually sold me the mag (okay, he was mad because I was stupid enough to get caught) - major federal case.

 

And yeah, the first time I had intercourse with my girlfriend, I remember walking home that night considering the possibility I might have to marry her.

 

In my upbringing, the whole concept of sex for pay was in a totally different universe. Good people had nothing to do with that.

 

The follow-on to all of that came when I was older and my dad and I had learned to deal with each other as people. He mentioned one time that he and his coworkers would sometimes watch out the office window to see who was visiting the hooker across the street. So I guess SOMEONE had something to do with that.

 

I eventually worked out that sex for pay can be fun and not degrading for both parties. I'm here.

[TheMike 100]

I'll echo some previous sentiments and say that I do not remember being explicitly told "sex for pay is wrong." However, as someone else said, it was basically just society's expectation that I would believe it. It was always implied that it was wrong, by parents, teachers, and other various authority figures, and so like many other people I grew up just kind of believing it. Although, I have to say, I don't know if I ever really believed it THAT strongly. It wasn't something I ever remember being appalled by at any time.

 

As I got into my teen years though, and started hearing about abortion, and started becoming a believer in pro-choice, that sort of opened up the idea of a woman's right to do what she wants with her own body, which then extended to a human's right to do what they wish with their own body. And also, getting into looking at porno as many teenage guys do, raised the same questions. Pretty soon I started to see a few different laws that I thought (and still think) are unjust government interferences.

 

Anyway, I guess you could say the abortion debate led me to what I think today, and not just about prostitution/escorting/etc.

[Lowdark 5613]

The simple fact of the matter is that we are all taught to pay for sex and the majority of us don't even know it. At least 90% of advertisers use sex and sexual innuendo to market their products and services. Girls as young as ten are now sold on the idea of dressing for a girls night out and professional sports have never shied away from using scandily clad cheerleaders to sell their brands. And without our addiciton to sex, people like the Kardashians, Britney Spears and the entire cast of Jersy Shore (to name a very few) wouldn't have careers. Nike wants to sell more shoes? They sign that year's Playboy Playmate as a spokemodel. Florida wants to attract more tourists? They make commercials showing a dozen smiling twenty something women in bikinis. How many action movies toss shots of female nuditiy in between gun fights and explosions for no other purpose to have them there? I'm not being judgemental, but that's the way it is. And we're completely screwed up about it. The Sun chain of newspapers uses their Sunshine girls to promote circulation and then print editorials arguing against prostitution and embracing "conservative" views on sexual behaviour. The examples of social hypocrisy are endless. And as far as paying for it, I believe mark Twain said something along the lines that the only difference between prostitution and marriage is that marriage costs more.

[castle 38816]

Sex ?!? What about something as natural as nursing a baby ?

 

Very true. Something which really pisses me off about facebook. I've had several friends who have had pics of them nursing their babies flagged and removed. That particular bond between mother and child is the most natural and beautiful thing in the world. There's absolutely NOTHING sexual about it. And yet, because a breast is involved it's deemed inappropriate. It makes me sad and angry every time it happens.

[Guest s******ecan****]

So, my question is not whether you think it's okay to pay for sex, but whether you were ever encouraged to think this when you were growing up.

 

No never. At least not in the case of prostitution. Certainly I was encouraged to think that the "man" was expected to "pay" for the date (ie dinner, movie, transportation) and the "woman" was expected to eventually "put out".

[Guest gagagaga]

I was "taught" that men paying for sex was fairly normal in certain circumstances; ugly men, men with small penises, married men with "frigid" wives, and men having a bachelor or similar celebration type party. Paying for sex regularly and routinely was a sign of a psych problem.

 

Technically, men who do pay for sex regularly, often do have problems with intimacy or closeness that make seeing an sp way more comfortable than actually trying to connect with a woman in a more meaningful, long term way. ( I am probably a good example of that)

 

As for the women, I think media has done both a positive and a negative service for sp's. On the positive side, there have been many example of strong, positive, bright, in control sp's in recent movies, books and tv shows. On the negative side, many media still focus on the "crack ho" angle of things.

 

I can say from my personal experience, I have met and dated sp's, mp's and dancers. I personally have no issue with their choices, but I wouldn't necessarily want my parents to know, so I guess I am a bit of a hypocrit.

[smitty_McFlung 290]

I have had a heated discussion with one of my female friends about paying for sex, she said no one should have to and is wrong. I promptly asked, that since its been a while and i craved some affection, if she would have sex with me. Of course i got a slap. My point was to her is that if you feel no one should have to pay to feel "normal" or have some companionship, that she should offer herself since she didn't believe in paying for it.

[jafo105 39057]

I was raised to think that sex , emotion and affection of any kind was wrong. (Mum was strange in many ways). The male role models in my life at that time had a different take on it. A more positive one. They taught me that it was OK to be curious about sex and women. That there was nothing wrong with a single man discretely seeking sex and affections from a prostitute.

"It is better to learn from a pro than to fumble the first time out".

 

Cheers,

Jafo

[TheMike 100]

I was "taught" that men paying for sex was fairly normal in certain circumstances; ugly men, men with small penises, married men with "frigid" wives, and men having a bachelor or similar celebration type party. Paying for sex regularly and routinely was a sign of a psych problem.

 

Technically, men who do pay for sex regularly, often do have problems with intimacy or closeness that make seeing an sp way more comfortable than actually trying to connect with a woman in a more meaningful, long term way. ( I am probably a good example of that)

 

As for the women, I think media has done both a positive and a negative service for sp's. On the positive side, there have been many example of strong, positive, bright, in control sp's in recent movies, books and tv shows. On the negative side, many media still focus on the "crack ho" angle of things.

 

I can say from my personal experience, I have met and dated sp's, mp's and dancers. I personally have no issue with their choices, but I wouldn't necessarily want my parents to know, so I guess I am a bit of a hypocrit.

 

I don't think that you're a hypocrite for that. Personally, I've always thought that a person's sex life is nobody's business but their own and the people they're having sex with (for obvious safety reasons, primarily). I don't mind talking about certain girls' looks with my friends, but who I'm having sex with, how often, and on what terms is, in my opinion, not something everyone needs to know, simply because it has no affect on them whatsoever. I wouldn't be comfortable talking to my parents or friends about my sex life even if I was having sex with my hypothetical wife (I'm not married).

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

Cat, I wanted to give you rep points for your post, but apparently I've given you some too recently to do it again.

 

I always learn from you. Thanks for sharing your story and for showing the issues so plainly.

 

I agree with you. It would be wonderful if sex workers could come out without fear of reprisals. I would do it, but the consequences would be very unfair to my children. Maybe one day, though!

[Carrie Moon 68826]

Hell no... I wasn't brought up to think sex for pay was okay. I was brought up to believe no sex until marriage! Being a slut was bad enough if you were in my family never mind being a whore. My father was a minister and my parents are still very religious.

 

Having said that.. 20+ years later they still don't approve of my choice of career.. but they support me as a person. I don't support or approve of their choices/beliefs and we agree to disagree. But they've progressed enough to be able to have a conversation with me about how I stay safe... their biggest concern and the biggest misconception about this business that it's somehow inherently dangerous.

 

I think that fear and the lack of education about the nature of our business is the largest reason for the label of immorality.

[Andee 220524]

 

I think that fear and the lack of education about the nature of our business is the largest reason for the label of immorality.

 

I totally agree!! Ignorance breeds fear which....