Warning: Abolitionist Tour Coming to Canadian Cities

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Samantha, this is not a perfect word. In my view (as I explained it clearly in my post) status quo is the best compromise NOT perfect. You asked me what I think of Picton. do I need to say!!!. Most know I am supportive of capital punishment and that I feel very sorry and sad for (especially female) victims but can you say or guarantee that there won't be more sad incidences if decriminalize? If for example drugs become legal and available in every drug/corner store or Loblaws do you think there would be more drug addicts or less?

 

The posts (especially mine) is NOT about outcalls. I don"t know why we always come to this. As I mentioned in my post, in the status quo, incalls are virtually legal. How many incalls have you heard busted?. How many sex workers working incalls have been arrested this year? None that I know of. Unless there are complains, abuse or underage or trafficked. On Tania, the new born book seller, I agree and I clearly indicated that in my post in this very same thread!!!.

 

I have been saying all along that I believe that consenting prostitution should be legalized as applied to many on-line sex worker and most if not all cerb SPs (but have hard time to get my message across aparrently) however, THERE IS ANOTHER COMPONENT in reality and that is those who are forced or abused or trafficked. In those cases we need LAWS so that the pimp, abuser (client), trafficker to be punished. I never said that all types of prostitution should be made illegal otherwise I would be supporting the Nordic system lol!!. The law should distiguish between consenting prostitution (to be legal) and all above (illegal and enforced and punishable).

 

You seem to have mentioned Australia and NewZealand as the two examples. You are correct about NewZealand (a tiny far away country) I have to research for Australia. But better comparison that I have read about are between two almost neighbouring European countries and those are Sweden and Holland/Germany and we know the results (again I have not been to any of those, just based on what on read).

 

How do you propose that decriminalization would address trafficking or force prostitution in Canada?. Not sure though that this thread is the one we should be discussing the right prostitution laws (I don't wish to hijack...). This thread may be more appropriate that I started a year ago with my views as what prostitution laws in Canada should be and has NOT changed since.

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35991

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

I'm very sad and disturbed that someone who retains our services would support a criminal system that stigmatizes us and puts us in physical danger.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I have full respect for the diversity of views and the freedom to express it which is fundemantal to our democratic society.

[Guest C*****tte]

Decriminalization is not an anti-trafficking measure. Decriminalization is about removing laws that put a great deal of us prostitutes in danger because it makes measures that keep us safe criminal. Anti-trafficking laws already exist.

 

And let's be clear. Incalls are criminal. There is no grey area. They are against the criminal code of Canada. Certain jurisdictions tolerate them or turn a blind eye and others do not. I know gals who have been busted in the Montreal area for this. Even ones who worked quietly on their own. It didn't make major national headlines but it has happened. I have friends who went to prison. I will not name names to protect their privacy.

 

I also have friends who are high end escorts who have been harassed by hotel staff while doing perfectly legal outcalls. They told them what they were doing was illegal. Not everyone knows the laws. I think full decriminalization is significant move towards less stigma and more openness about all forms of sex work. This occurred in Australia and New Zealand. I know it will likely affect the way in which I work and I may be forced to not work at all. But I cannot turn a blind eye given the rape, assaults and murders of prostitutes, escorts etc... that have occurred in my own backyard of Montreal as well as those across Canada.

 

Back to the Tania book tour...

 

Samantha, very astute observation of how this woman says she exploited hundreds of women for profit and now will continue to do so with her tales of her and their experiences. Its very saddening.

[JuliasUndies 7288]

So.. What's the plan then? I hear speak of standing up. Details?

[VedaSloan 119179]

In those cases we need LAWS so that the pimp, abuser (client), trafficker to be punished.

 

You seem to have mentioned Australia and NewZealand as the two examples. You are correct about NewZealand (a tiny far away country) I have to research for Australia. But better comparison that I have read about are between two almost neighbouring European countries and those are Sweden and Holland/Germany and we know the results (again I have not been to any of those, just based on what on read).

 

How do you propose that decriminalization would address trafficking or force prostitution in Canada?. Not sure though that this thread is the one we should be discussing the right prostitution laws (I don't wish to hijack...). This thread may be more appropriate that I started a year ago with my views as what prostitution laws in Canada should be and has NOT changed since.

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35991

 

Honestly, I don't know why I'm bothering as trying to enlighten you as to why you're mistaken in your beliefs is like beating a dead horse.

 

There are ALREADY laws in place to deal with trafficking and pimping.

 

As you have already admitted yourself, you haven't done much reading and what you have read you admit is (likely) biased. Maybe that's a good sign that you don't have the full story and therefore are not well-versed enough in the situation to make an informed opinion.

[Guest C*****tte]

So.. What's the plan then? I hear speak of standing up. Details?

 

I know when similar events occur in Montreal Chez Stella sends out a press release and at times organizes a demonstration if deemed appropriate. We have a loud anti sex work movement in Quebec especially in the women's movement. Lots of public debate occurs.

 

I am sure the people at Power in Ottawa will be discussing this book tour and what they feel is an appropriate counter argument.

 

Though the book tour might not even registered on the radar and require very little counter argument.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

and therefore are not well-versed enough in the situation to make an informed opinion.

 

Respectfully, Whether it is an informed opinion or otherwise, it is MY opinion and I am going to act or vote based on what is MINE!!!! Please lets debate the subject and not make it personal.

 

Additional Comments:

So.. What's the plan then? I hear speak of standing up. Details?

 

In my view writing to our MPs (who would be likely voting on this in a few months) when time is right is the first step that I would take, but again I may not have an informed opinion!!.

[VedaSloan 119179]

Respectfully, Whether it is an informed opinion or otherwise, it is MY opinion and I am going to act or vote based on what is MINE!!!! Please lets debate the subject and not make it personal.

 

Instead of getting defensive, why not just admit you don't know what you're talking about and actually do some research before spouting off all that hot air.

[castle 38816]

Whatever happened to agreeing to disagree? Seriously not liking the tone of these threads for the past few days....I log onto cerb to escape from the drama of my everyday life...the last thing I need when coming here is even more drama. Is the heat getting to us or something? For the record I support decriminalization, but is getting nasty with each other really going to help change anyone's opinions? Opinions are like assholes, the world's full of them :p, nothing's going to change that. It's clear SA is not going to change his mind, and SA it's clear nothing you say will change the ladies' minds. Just let it go people.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I am not going to respond to this personal attack (obeying cerb rules). And I am not posting any more in this thread as it is getting more and more personal and nasty with each post. No more discussion from me. I will PM those whom I care to discuss. And thank you castle for good advice.

[Alexandra-Sky 12606]

The angry feminist comment was more so of a general comment playing off of what people usually label me for giving the examples that I did. It was not directed at you per se, moreso in general.

 

I'm quite a proud feminist and therefore was mocking the use of feminism as a negative term by people unlike myself or yourself for that matter.

 

You quoted me Alexandra, so I am not sure if you meant me when you said accusing you of an angry feminist!!!!. I love feminists and my entire family and myself have been so all my life. Can you please quote the post that I accused you or anyone of angry feminist. If you can not back it up then I am respectfully asking you to please either retract your comments or edit your post (by not quoting my post underneath).

 

I am sorry but I expressed what I believe in and that is I am against decriminalization of prostitution. Only consenting prostitution should be allowed and everything else outlawed and based on my readings (likely from biased sources) it is not a great percentage. When I read that a (likely high) percentage of ladies are in this business because they have no choice (need the money bad for drugs, hate what they do and it has long term disasterous pcychological effects on them or being forced into prostitution by pimp, BF or hobby, having to put up with abusive unclean clients because of desparate need for drugs or young girls promised good jobs and upon arrival their passports confiscated and forced into prostitution) my heart goes out to them and feel sad. when I read the pcychological effects on those forced into prostitution and how it adversely affects their lives, I wonder if sooner or later I will meet one without knowing, if I have not already.... There is a need to put public funding aside and help those who want out to earn skills required to get an alternative job (If those abolishinists really care this is the direction they should go. If there is money for prisons there is money for social care too). I am also against the establishment of red light districts like in Germany or Holland where women are put to show behind a window in public like a commodity for sale.

 

The fact that women have been exploited ever since (and it is a very sad fact, and still are in many regions) does not make exploitation of any kind okay. It is regretful that it happened/happening or will happen and we should take steps to prevent or minimize exploitation of any kind. You asked (I guess me) what evidence I have that decriminalization will increase human trafficking or exploitation of women, then I point to the two countries, Sweden and Holland. In which of the two countries human trafficking is more extensive and (forced) prostitution more widespread? This belief is also based on logic that criminals always seek easy targets, however, I can equally ask you what evidence do you have that decriminalization will result in less human trafficking or less (forced) prostitution?

 

I believe that the Nordic model will provide a very unsafe environment for sex workers and clients alike and the total decriminalization will result in widesread human trafficking and (forced) prostitution as the criminals would seek easy targets. That is why I support status quo and I believe that the laws we have now are the best compromise between the two (even better with some modifications on hiring guards and drivers). The status quo has made on-line escorting virtually legal (no crack downs on incalls unless complains made or abuse or underage cases involved. Outcalls legal), fights street prostitution (mostly drugs and force involve), trafficking outlawed, relative safety for non-SW sex workers, pimping outlawed, public solicitation outlawed. Not perfect but as I said in my view the best compromise solution.

 

I can not support something and even worse campaign for something ( like decriminalization) that I don't believe in and worse I am against it, and I am sorry that our views are in conflict but I am equally entitled to my views.

 

ps - SA has outlined in detail what he plans to do and his limitations within that plan. I challenge those who may be critical, to outline theirs in same detail, if they dare (This is not directed at anyone as I don't wish to make enemies lol!!).

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

Everyone is allowed to have and express and opinion but would it not be more constructive to listen, learn and educate oneself rather than stick strickly to what you know for a fact? It is very satisfactory to learn as much as possible about a topic you are interested in as you may find that your opinions will change!

[ostirch 1668]

Could not resist writing a reply so here it goes. I think some important facts are lost which may lead to really stupid laws. Most important, not all sex workers are women. The debate is leaving a lot of the gay male escorts and there are more and more male escorts for women. Secondly, not all clients/customers are men, there is non-negligible amount of women who now pay for sex/companionship (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/arts/story.html?id=6f1d0124-af59-431a-b9eb-f75a5aa47882). Framing the issue as powerful men exploiting desperate women is a gross generalization. In fact, we know very little about who really does pay for sex because it's somewhat taboo. I am sure, we'd all be chocked if we knew. One thing that I do believe (and I am biased here) is that people who pay for sex are in a vulnerable spot, I know I was.

And I am grateful for the few SP's who for a moment pretended to like me. There is a saying by Khalil Gibran that "Work is love made visible". Part of me wishes that the SP's I saw, have someone in their lives that make them just as happy as they made me when I saw them. I have no shame in saying that I paid for sex, I worked hard for that money. I will show up as a John to those meetings.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

... however, THERE IS ANOTHER COMPONENT in reality and that is those who are forced or abused or trafficked. In those cases we need LAWS so that the pimp, abuser (client), trafficker to be punished. ... How do you propose that decriminalization would address trafficking or force prostitution in Canada?....

 

Remember that only 212(1)(j) of the procuring laws was challenged in the current court case -- affecting anyone who "lives wholly or in part on the avails of prostitution of another person". The balance of the anti-procuring law- Sections 212(1)(a) through (i) - was not challenged.

 

So, one way or the other, the anti-pimping laws still exist, and aren't going away. Following is the current anti-pimping law (with the challenged section (j) left out):

 

 

Procuring

 

212. (1) Every one who

 

(a) procures, attempts to procure or solicits a person to have illicit sexual intercourse with another person, whether in or out of Canada,

 

(b) inveigles or entices a person who is not a prostitute to a common bawdy-house for the purpose of illicit sexual intercourse or prostitution,

 

© knowingly conceals a person in a common bawdy-house,

 

(d) procures or attempts to procure a person to become, whether in or out of Canada, a prostitute,

 

(e) procures or attempts to procure a person to leave the usual place of abode of that person in Canada, if that place is not a common bawdy-house, with intent that the person may become an inmate or frequenter of a common bawdy-house, whether in or out of Canada,

 

(f) on the arrival of a person in Canada, directs or causes that person to be directed or takes or causes that person to be taken, to a common bawdy-house,

 

(g) procures a person to enter or leave Canada, for the purpose of prostitution,

 

(h) for the purposes of gain, exercises control, direction or influence over the movements of a person in such manner as to show that he is aiding, abetting or compelling that person to engage in or carry on prostitution with any person or generally,

 

(i) applies or administers to a person or causes that person to take any drug, intoxicating liquor, matter or thing with intent to stupefy or overpower that person in order thereby to enable any person to have illicit sexual intercourse with that person ...

 

is guilty of an indictable offence and

liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.

 

 

Also, there are plenty of non-prostitution Sections of the Criminal Code under which true pimps can, and have been, prosecuted and convicted. For example ... kidnapping, forcible confinement, uttering threats, robbery, assault, use of a firearm in the commission of an offence, assault with a weapon.

 

In many of these cases, the crime of uttering threats found in s. 264.1 of the Criminal Code, punishable by up to five years' imprisonment, is used to punish the exploitive conduct of the pimp. In others, s. 423 (intimidation) has been used. This section makes it an offence to use violence or threaten violence or injury to property, intimidate or threaten a person in order to compel them to do something that they have the right to abstain from doing.

 

 

Human Trafficking

 

Also, introduced in November 2005, s. 279.01 of the Criminal Code prohibits trafficking in persons:

 

279.01(1) Every person who recruits, transports, transfers, receives, holds, conceals or harbours a person, or exercises control, direction or influence over the movements of a person, for the purpose of exploiting them or facilitating their exploitation is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

 

(a)

to imprisonment for life

if they kidnap, commit an aggravated assault or aggravated sexual assault against, or cause death to, the victim during the commission of the offence; or

 

(b)

to imprisonment for a term of not more than fourteen year

s in any other case.

 

(2) No consent to the activity that forms the subject-matter of a charge under subsection (1) is valid.

 

Section 279.02 punishes individuals who benefit economically from trafficking in persons and carries a maximum penalty of ten years' imprisonment

 

 

None of the unconstitutional prostitution provisions are needed to deal with pimps or traffickers. The police need only defend sex workers using the same laws with which NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS are defended.

[SamanthaEvans 166766]

Thank you for re-posting this, WIT. It's very helpful and worth reading again.

 

I do not understand why the prohibitionists want new laws against procuring and trafficking when we already have good laws on the books. They never say anything about the laws as they are at the moment.

 

One might think that their real beef is with law enforcement bodies and the courts for not exercising due diligence.

 

Unless, of course, their real concern is to try to close down the sex trade simply because they think it's morally wrong for consenting adults, acting in private, to exchange sex for money.

 

Additional Comments:

Samantha, this is not a perfect word. In my view (as I explained it clearly in my post) status quo is the best compromise NOT perfect. You asked me what I think of Picton. do I need to say!!!. Most know I am supportive of capital punishment and that I feel very sorry and sad for (especially female) victims but can you say or guarantee that there won't be more sad incidences if decriminalize? If for example drugs become legal and available in every drug/corner store or Loblaws do you think there would be more drug addicts or less?

 

This is where we must disagree. I cannot accept that the assault, murder and disappearance of street workers, or the risks that inside workers also face, is a reasonable compromise in order to avoid making the whole industry illegal.

 

Decriminalizing prostitution will mean that when a sex worker is threatened, assaulted, robbed or worse, she can report it to the police and has every right to expect them to take action just as they would for anyone else. Right now, violent predators and abusers know that most prostitutes either won't report them to the police or will not have any credibility with the police if they try. Moreover, telling the police that one is a prostitute feels like a very risky step to take. But when predators know that the authorities are likely to believe their potential victims, many will find something else to do.

 

The posts (especially mine) is NOT about outcalls. I don"t know why we always come to this.

 

With all due respect, SA, we always come back to the issue of outcalls because you take considerable pains to explain how and why you only engage in what you consider to be the legal aspects of the sex trade. I simply wanted to point out that most of the people associated with the women whom you see engage in criminal activity when they book your companions and deliver them to your home.

[fortunateone 156618]

Also thanks for the post about the laws already on the books, WIT.

 

Tonight on the news, I saw a story about a woman in Vancouver (not a Canadian citizen), who was arrested and charged with trafficking and more. She had lured an African woman here with a promise of a job at a salon, put her into her house and made her work as an unpaid servant for about a year.

 

http://www.vancouversun.com/West+Vancouver+woman+charged+with+human+trafficking/4793347/story.html

 

So basically if anyone is trafficked here (which only means assisted to travel here), regardless of what kind of work they are forced to do, there are laws that already address that.

 

Human trafficking and human smuggling.

 

The article mentions this is only the SECOND time the charge of human trafficking has been approved in BC. Countless illegal brothels have been shut down over the years in BC, yet none of the people running them have faced this charge. It kind of makes you wonder, if this business is so fraught with human trafficking, smuggling and sex slavery, why the hesitation to lay the charges?

 

Prostitution is legal, so the work is legal, just as housecleaning is legal work. It doesn't matter what the work is, if someone is brought here then put to work against their will, or their wishes, there is a law to deal with the person forcing them.

 

Additional Comments:

On a side note, Tania/Vixen Nina was running an operation at least thru the summer of 2009. By January of 2011, there was an article about her in a local paper regarding the book. It's quite a quick turnaround from pimping out twin midget sps who've never worked before to finding God and writing a book.

 

A lot of stuff came up about her thru discussion of this article and the book and so on, especially the fantastic statistics that are included in the book as "facts".

[SamanthaEvans 166766]

On a side note, Tania/Vixen Nina was running an operation at least thru the summer of 2009. By January of 2011, there was an article about her in a local paper regarding the book. It's quite a quick turnaround from pimping out twin midget sps who've never worked before to finding God and writing a book.

 

I hadn't realized this, fortunateone. Average turnaround time for most publishers is about a year; most schedule books for their fall and spring lists well ahead of time. They do fast-track some books, and that may have been the case with this one, but it doesn't happen all that often. Publishing is very expensive with few guarantees. Of course it's possible--it's actually quite likely--that the book was ghostwritten by someone else, in which case publishing quickly would have been easier.

[drlove 37204]

I do not understand why the prohibitionists want new laws against procuring and trafficking when we already have good laws on the books...Unless, of course, their real concern is to try to close down the sex trade simply because they think it's morally wrong for consenting adults, acting in private, to exchange sex for money.

 

I honestly believe that this is the heart of the matter for the Conservatives. The rhetoric surrounding human trafficking is merely a smoke screen being used to advance their agenda. I feel we as a community need to take stock of the current political climate and what impending legislation will mean for the future of the sex trade in this country. My biggest fears at present concern the possibility of Joy Smith's proposed private member's bill being made into law, and the subsequent possibility of clients such as myself being charged. Not a very appealing prospect in the least.

 

Secondly, how does one reconcile these developments with the constitutional challenge presently before the courts? If new laws are passed making the purchasing and/or the sale of sex illegal in Canada, then even a ruling upholding Himmel's decision will be rendered null and void. Is there any recourse here?

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

There doesn't seem to have been much splashy media coverage of this tour so far, although the Ontario finale is almost upon us.

 

this just in:

 

It's now reported that Tara Teng, one of the two leaders of this Abolitionist Tour, will be interning on Parliament Hill this fall. She'll be working for ... you guessed it, Conservative MP Joy Smith.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2011/08/ootd-early-edition-whats-a-public-safety-minister-like-you-doing-in-a-body-shop-like-this.html

 

Tara Teng

[Suzirider 737]

This sounds sincere to me.

 

"To Whom It May Concern:

In my past life as a former Madam..."

 

http://ignitetheroadtojustice.com/apology

[Guest E*******h S******s]

This sounds sincere to me.

 

"To Whom It May Concern:

In my past life as a former Madam..."

 

http://ignitetheroadtojustice.com/apology

 

If she was that sincere and that remorseful, she would donate all proceeds on the book she wrote about the women she exploited TO the women she exploited. She's merely exploiting them again using another venue. Words are cheap, actions speak louder.

[SamanthaEvans 166766]

This sounds sincere to me.

 

"To Whom It May Concern:

In my past life as a former Madam..."

 

http://ignitetheroadtojustice.com/apology

 

I hadn't seen this. I agree, it sounds sincere. It's hard to evaluate, though. I've looked into Tania's history and find that she's prone to more exaggeration about her life than I'm comfortable with. I hesitate when she says that she, too, was a victim even while being a Madam. It could be true, but it might not be. That said, it takes a lot of strength to write and post so publicly this kind of apology.

 

If she was that sincere and that remorseful, she would donate all proceeds on the book she wrote about the women she exploited TO the women she exploited. She's merely exploiting them again using another venue. Words are cheap, actions speak louder.

 

I'm not sure that Tania is making a lot from her book. I think that it's self-published. Even so, I agree with you, Elizabeth. Real Contrition is a complete action and should include refusing to make any kind of profit from her writing.

[Guest E*******h S******s]

That said, it takes a lot of strength to write and post so publicly this kind of apology.

 

It's not difficult at all when you are claiming victim status along with those whom you've victimized. Sorry, but I wouldn't believe what this woman says if her tongue came notarized.