The artistry of dancing

[ripleymonroe 794]

I've been going through youtube videos on pole dancing as a study in movement (stuff like this:

) and I was wondering how come there isn't more artistry to the on-stage dances at the clubs here in Ottawa?

 

I find that the dancers that I notice the most on stage are the ones that consider their dance a presentation instead of a task. (And I know from speaking with some dancer friends that a lot of them see it as a task, mostly because it's unpaid time for the most part.. I kind of understand that).

 

But wouldn't it benefit the dancer in the long run if she introduced more creativity in her routine? Or maybe it's too much prep time, too much investment in costumes, etc.?

 

Guys, would you appreciate that or do you like the 'regular' on-stage shows?

 

Personally, if I owned a club, I would even pay for dancers to take various kinds of dance classes to improve their showmanship, knowing that the more entertaining they are, the better it would be for my bottom line (and for their career).. but that's just my assumption. Thoughts?

[Old Dog 179138]

Great thread Ripley!!!

 

I think what you are seeing now is just another step in the evolution of live adult entertainment.

 

We have gone from fan dancers wearing pasties to champagne rooms in just over 60 years.

 

As the show evolved, the need to be a great stage act dissipated - there was no longer a need to have elaborate costumes or choreographed routines - but then again, clubs aren't paying for entertainment anymore, entertainment is paying for the right to use the club. Clubs are looking to maximize profit - more dancers means more revenue and possibly more sales in liquor and food; dancers are looking to maximize profit and frankly the stage does not generate income unless you see it as advertising. Stage time is time away from the client base.

 

To put it another way, we have gone from the days of salary to salary plus commission to straight commission. Commissioned salespeople rarely enjoy compulsory presentations for the "good of the company"; it does not put bread on the table.

 

With all that in mind, there are great entertainers out there. There are plenty of dancers who take a pride in their stage work and do train and choreograph their routines... but that is more a reflection of their personality than the actual requirements of the job. As long as the bottom line is still in the black, I wouldn't think club owners would be willing to expend profit for the sake of art, but then again that is just my opinion.

 

As for the guys, well, let's face it. We want to see lots of beautiful women get naked. It's base. It's primal. It's who we are. The stage routine just let's us see the dancer from different angles. If we wanted "art" we would find alternatives. Essentially it's the 3 b's at strip clubs - boobies, buns and beer.

[Kimberly-Shea 28280]

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[Megan'sTouch 23875]

.....and I was wondering how come there isn't more artistry to the on-stage dances at the clubs here in Ottawa?

Simply put, there is no money in fancy stage shows. You make your money hustling selling lapdances, and putting on a fancy stage show hardly makes you money. It's a shame because I really do enjoy a good stage show.

[toine 30556]

Simply put' date=' there is no money in fancy stage shows. You make your money hustling selling lapdances, and putting on a fancy stage show hardly makes you money. It's a shame because I really do enjoy a good stage show.[/quote']

 

Megan,

the very first thing in a club is to catch the eye of the potential lapdance buyer. Are you telling us that a fancy stage show has little value in attracting attention? For all dancers, that is?

toine

[Old Dog 179138]

There is a niche audience for the old style burlesque in Neo-Burlesque artists like Dita Von Teese and Julia Atlas Muz, but the target audience seems to be confined to major centres with a population that can support alternative theatre.

 

Canada does host such a festival - The Vancouver International Burlesque festival has been running for 6 years and apparently gets bigger and better every year.

 

The link is here: http://www.vanburlesquefest.com/Performers.html

[ripleymonroe 794]

Very well said Old Dog.

 

That's been my experience, we're on the clock the longer I'm away from the floor the less money I make. :icon_wink: If I could skip the stage all together I would.

 

Kimberly

 

I hear this from dancers A LOT. So here's a question then: if dancers were salaried+commissions, would that change anything?

 

In regards to "boobs, butts and beer", my male friends are tired of the same old... are there dancers that we should keep an eye out for (because they're more artsy)? Or is there another club in Ottawa that tends to be more about performance? (I've only been to the Playmate, Barb's and Barefax... everyone is recommending Pigale, so that's my next stop).

 

I love burlesque, too! The only thing is, you can't get a lap dance from a Burlesque dancer. For me, it's the combination of a beautiful performance and then a sensual dance that intrigues me the most.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

From reading many of the Strip Club Discussions on this board, I have no doubt that my own approach and preferences are somewhat different than those held by many here. I'm more a sometime-tourist than an afficionado of the strip-club genre.

 

What I have really loved, in much-lamented times-past, was what I call the "old-style" clubs, where the ladies really danced and stripped (not just posed and jiggled) -- think The Cecil in Vancouver, 25 to 30 years ago, of which I have great personal memories. The dancers were all so graceful, flexible, and had amazing pole routines. They were athletes as much as entertainers.

 

(Almost as good in its own way was the era of the table-dance, where the ladies would come to your table and undulate a few enticing inches in front of your face while standing on a low stool, no touching. My best memory of this second approach is Chez Paree in Montreal 10 years ago. )

 

I regret that there doesn't seem to be much of a niche in the world for such entertainment venues any more. If my impression of this is correct, then in this regard, the world has truly passed my sensibilities by. I'm sure the business generates much more money today, so I can't really begrudge the decline of these charming relics of a much more aesthetically-soothing and innocent-seeming world. So much for the fond memories of a doddering old fool ...

 

(note: this is in no way a comment on Ottawa clubs specifically ... I've never in my life been to an Ottawa club)

[Guest f***2f***]

I've seen some feature dancers at clubs in other cities that put on a good show. Saw a very athletic girl in Barrie one time do wonders on a high bar....on her dismount she landed in the splits....all the men in the audience gasped and then clapped loudly. She could sure twirl and contort herself. She was more of an athlete than a dancer.

 

In Singapore a few years ago I went to a very high end club where there were themes for each girl and elaborate costumes. One girl I remember in particular did a routine on a garden swing. There was an ornate trellis with flowers and everything. She was dressed in yellow pastels with a very flouncy Victorian type dress with frills. Her under garments were Victorian period too, petticoats and knee high hose...On her feet she wore button boots, white lace gloves that buttoned at the wrist and on her head a bonnet tied under her chin. Hair in ringlets and rosy cheeked makeup etc....It was very well done and obviously they took a lot of trouble with all their acts. It was a pretty high end club but still it was very entertaining.

[Old Dog 179138]

I hear this from dancers A LOT. So here's a question then: if dancers were salaried+commissions, would that change anything?

 

In regards to "boobs, butts and beer", my male friends are tired of the same old... are there dancers that we should keep an eye out for (because they're more artsy)? Or is there another club in Ottawa that tends to be more about performance? (I've only been to the Playmate, Barb's and Barefax... everyone is recommending Pigale, so that's my next stop).

 

I love burlesque, too! The only thing is, you can't get a lap dance from a Burlesque dancer. For me, it's the combination of a beautiful performance and then a sensual dance that intrigues me the most.

 

I can't say specifically if there is any club in Ottawa/Gatineau that has that niche - Pigales and Nuden both have larger stages, but ostensibly the industry has changed over the years and it is just an economic reality - salary plus commission will only work when and if a "feature performer" (usually from the Adult Film Industry) is hired to bring in a larger crowd. It might just be one of those special events that could be hosted at one of the bigger clubs, but it would take an entrepreneur with a willingness to take a financial risk that would have to approach a club owner with that proposal. Nuden used to host some bigger events... but I see from their site that nothing is planned.

 

From reading many of the Strip Club Discussions on this board, I have no doubt that my own approach and preferences are somewhat different than those held by many here. I'm more a sometime-tourist than an afficionado of the strip-club genre.

 

What I have really loved, in much-lamented times-past, was what I call the "old-style" clubs, where the ladies really danced and stripped (not just posed and jiggled) -- think The Cecil in Vancouver, 25 to 30 years ago, of which I have great personal memories. The dancers were all so graceful, flexible, and had amazing pole routines. They were athletes as much as entertainers.

 

 

I regret that there doesn't seem to be much of a niche in the world for such entertainment venues any more. If my impression of this is correct, then in this regard, the world has truly passed my sensibilities by. I'm sure the business generates much more money today, so I can't really begrudge the decline of these charming relics of a much more aesthetically-soothing and innocent-seeming world. So much for the fond memories of a doddering old fool ...

 

(note: this is in no way a comment on Ottawa clubs specifically ... I've never in my life been to an Ottawa club)

 

WiT... your memories are the same as mine. I used to go to clubs back in the day when performers rarely mingled with the crowd, and there were no bonus dances at the table, on your lap or in the champagne room. Interaction was by way of slipping bills into the cup of a bra or the band of the panties or g-string.

 

The stage was everything and the only thing. That being said, the dancers had to be beautiful and skilled in the art of strip tease; clubs paid through the nose to attract the biggest stars in the industry. I saw one contract about 17 years ago, a big club in Hamilton was paying $12,500 US per week (when our dollar hovered at about 60 cents) for 6 weeks for such an entertainer - she was obliged to do 3 - 15 minute sets a day, 6 days a week for 6 weeks... $75,000 US for 27 hours work.

 

Frankly, I don't ever see that kind of money being offered again. The economic reality is such that they really don't need it. Guys come to the clubs to be entertained and titillated, and the dancers get paid directly by the clients. The club makes more money because they aren't obliged to pay anyone to entertain - and they also get a cut (through fees) of the dancer's money.

 

Dancers make money proportional to their willingness to contact clients (for lack of a better term)... so the skill of the dance has been replaced by the skills of the social graces. Some, like Megan, still take pride in the entertainment they provide while on stage; I can attest that I have witnessed some amazing performances by lithe young women that have absolutely captivated me... but the majority shun the value of the stage for purely economic reasons... as Kimberly said, she would rather not have to do the stage at all - it interferes with her ability to actually make money.

[toine 30556]

 

What I have really loved, in much-lamented times-past, was what I call the "old-style" clubs, where the ladies really danced and stripped (not just posed and jiggled) -- think The Cecil in Vancouver, 25 to 30 years ago, of which I have great personal memories. The dancers were all so graceful, flexible, and had amazing pole routines. They were athletes as much as entertainers.

 

 

Hey! we may have run into one another at Cecil... Is it still up? Last time I was in Vancouver, it (and the blues club Yaletown) was about to be demolished for another condo building, as if there aren't enough of these in that neighbourhood....

Old dog said it, though: the economic mechanisms of the clubs changed entirely once Champagne room were created. No need to go into specifics, but the rent owners change as you all know...

Cecil could be fun! Or are the glowing memory from a time I was young and mostly careless?

[whiteman 14028]

Some of the more athletic pole dancing I've seen recently were from Ashley at Playmate, and Bella at Taboo/Silver Dollar.

[Guest S****an]

Good thread. My guess is that whether or not an increase in dance artistry would bring any benefit depends a lot on the club itself and the time of day (i.e. type of crowd). In small clubs it's probably less necessary in order for the dancer to get noticed; bigger clubs moreso. In some clubs, like the Nuden, where the stage is very poorly designed (IMHO), it doesn't matter because you need high-powered optics to see the dancers anyway lol.

In the daytime, a lot of guys are there to see their regular girls (that would be my MO) and the stage matters less; maybe at night in some clubs it might be different where there's less opportunity for dancers and patrons to interact directly and a good stage show will get you noticed. When I go to Vegas I see this kind of dynamic more than here in Canada.

 

One thing's for sure: it takes a lot of courage to get up on that stage one way or the other. Just because a lady's a dancer doesn't mean she's an extrovert/exhibitionist. It's a lot harder than we guys think.

[Cato 160314]

I find that a riveting stage performance makes it much more likely that I'll seek out the dancer for some private time. It's good advertising.

Good thread, Ripley!

[MiaBella 10988]

I hear this from dancers A LOT. So here's a question then: if dancers were salaried+commissions, would that change anything?

 

 

Yes, If I was on salary and commission, you couldn't get me out of the club. I probably would still be a dancer and would have never come back to SP. However this isn't the case.

 

For me, I always enjoyed getting on stage. I'm not much of a show off or attention seeker, but I do still enjoy "playing on the pole".

Too bad ON isn't on the road to salary dancers right now. I'd be the first to sign up.

[Megan'sTouch 23875]

Megan,

the very first thing in a club is to catch the eye of the potential lapdance buyer. Are you telling us that a fancy stage show has little value in attracting attention? For all dancers, that is?

toine

Unfortunately that is correct. There is very little to no correlation between good stage shows and making money. It's your sales skills that make you money. Also keep in mind that we are generally only onstage 3 songs per shift, so the majority of people we dance for will never see us onstage.

 

Too bad ON isn't on the road to salary dancers right now. I'd be the first to sign up.

I danced in Thunder Bay 3 years ago and we were paid for our stage shows. We had 4 shows per day and were paid between $40-60 per show. In between shows you could hustle for private dances. I'm not sure if this is still the way they work.

[Malika Fantasy 144625]

I do agree that artistic and acrobatic stage show are awesome and they will catch your attention no matter what, hard to miss a tall girl when she is upside down:)

 

But as multiple state, you are not paid for stage show, so therefore you are loosing some time and money

 

but one reason that I didn't see mention...it is extremely physically demanding and at some point hard to learn, so unless you actually train, take pole dancing class or learn from someone and practice (which can be hard without a pole at home), you don't really have a chance to improve technique

[Old Dog 179138]

I danced in Thunder Bay 3 years ago and we were paid for our stage shows. We had 4 shows per day and were paid between $40-60 per show. In between shows you could hustle for private dances. I'm not sure if this is still the way they work.

 

I do know that some of the clubs in Northern Ontario (Thunder Bay, The Sault, Sudbury) used to have to do this to attract more dancers. It's the economy of scale, the further you are from the major centres, the greater the need to offer incentives like paid stage time.

 

As for the south, the talent pool exceeds the number of venues. Where smaller cities like Kitchener and Cambridge used to boast three and four clubs each, now there is one club serving the two cities. With the wealth of talent, the need to pay premiums and incentives dissipates.... but I must admit that the last time I was down in that club, there was one dancer so adept at the pole that absolutely everyone stopped what they were doing to watch. She was absolutely magical - her stage act seemed to defy the laws of nature and gravity.

[ripleymonroe 794]

Some of the more athletic pole dancing I've seen recently were from Ashley at Playmate, and Bella at Taboo/Silver Dollar.

 

Yes, Ashley is fabulous - I always tell her that her muscles are sexy. ;)

 

Speaking of feature performers, that doesn't happen much here, eh? I'm just starting out in the adult film industry (director/producer) and I'm learning that in other major cities, if the performers do well in the business, they get invited to dance as features in clubs. Would love to see that happen in this city!

 

You're all correct in saying that the current pay structure for dancers just doesn't give them an incentive to be creative on stage. That's too bad.

 

I would LOVE to own a club, to be honest. I'd love to try it out- change it from a predatory scene and bring it back to entertainment, pay the women salary + commissions (and health benefits, dammit) and do like any other smart business does, invest in their training and education. Why not invite dancers to take classes in belly dancing or latin dancing, why not invite design students to design costumes for exotic dancers as part of their coop, why not invite theatre students to coach dancers in drama and showmanship? Make it a grand affair and I think the money would follow. You can still please the fundamental needs of (mostly) men and give them something extra in terms of a unique offering...something more high-end, more theatrical.

 

Just my idealistic two cents. ;)

 

Additional Comments:

but one reason that I didn't see mention...it is extremely physically demanding and at some point hard to learn, so unless you actually train, take pole dancing class or learn from someone and practice (which can be hard without a pole at home), you don't really have a chance to improve technique

 

Yep, you're totally right - that's why I would see this as being the responsibility of the club. They could schedule training hours for dancers to come in to practice when the club is closed to the public. Or they could offer an incentive for dancers to train elsewhere. They do it in other lines of business (like paying tuition for courses or training seminars), why not do it for dancers? Of course, I can only see this happening if dancers became employees, not independent contractors like they are now.

[whiteman 14028]

Yes, Ashley is fabulous - I always tell her that her muscles are sexy. ;)

Maybe now that this thread is started, we should use it to highlight the girls that are especially good at their floor shows at any club in town?

 

Speaking of feature performers, that doesn't happen much here, eh? I'm just starting out in the adult film industry (director/producer) and I'm learning that in other major cities, if the performers do well in the business, they get invited to dance as features in clubs. Would love to see that happen in this city!

Years ago, they used to bring in girls at Pigale's and Fanny's and the other major places who were both porn stars and feature dancers. They used their porn fame to advertise their travelling dance shows. They'd be in town for a week with a very highly developed stage show, almost circus-like. They'd then sell autographed photos taken with them and the customers. I was told that the far more lucrative business was the feature dancing, and not the porn acting. I think that situation may have reversed by now.

 

You're all correct in saying that the current pay structure for dancers just doesn't give them an incentive to be creative on stage. That's too bad.

I think that even in the days of the feature dancers, when girls were paid for their stage shows, the pay was a pittance compared to what a feature dancer got. But then again, the feature dancers brought an entourage, changes of clothes, props, lighting, etc.

[ripleymonroe 794]

Maybe now that this thread is started, we should use it to highlight the girls that are especially good at their floor shows at any club in town?

 

I'd love to hear thoughts on this.. I went to Barb's on a Monday night and it was INCREDIBLE. The stage shows were amazing that night - I would say that at least four or five dancers had a pretty elaborate routine. I didn't catch their names but I did get a few dances with Shannon because of her stage presence.

 

In regards to feature performers and the porn industry, I would say that it's still very profitable in L.A. for performers to dance as features in clubs. In Canada, that's probably a different story unless you're in the major centres like Montreal or Toronto. I'm hoping that some of my performers will be asked to feature in clubs here but it would be great to see them get some attention elsewhere, too.

 

If you learn of a feature show in one of the clubs here, please let me know - I'll go check it out!

[turing 150]

There is very little to no correlation between good stage shows and making money. It's your sales skills that make you money. Also keep in mind that we are generally only onstage 3 songs per shift' date=' so the majority of people we dance for will never see us onstage.[/quote']

 

Well, I must not be the average SC patron then, because for me, a good stage show is key. I've often wondered why more dancers don't make any effort, and I guess this is the answer.

 

But, to me, I will often try to wait for a dancer's stage show before getting a private dance. In particular, the following items will make me much more interested in a particular dancer:

 

1. Make an effort. You don't have to win miss pole-dance America, but something other than walking around the pole and crawling on all fours shows us that you are at least trying.
   
2. Don't be afraid to smile! I feel like so many are trying so hard to look sexy that they never look like they want to be up there. Instead they've got the perma-pout (or simply look bored).
   
3. Eye contact is sexy, staring at the ceiling the whole time is not.
   
4. Change into a different outfit for the second dance. You have to change anyway, why not into a different look?
   

Combine all that -- someone who is making an effort, who catches your eye and flashes you a smile -- will be at the top of my list for a private dance, versus someone who walks around the stage all bored like, then spends the rest of the time hustling for dances. And I do feel there is a correlation with the quality of the private dances as well -- if the dancer doesn't make an effort on stage, why should I think a private dance would be any different?

 

I admit, I'm most likely an outlier though, as someone who actually pays attention to the dances on stage, doesn't have more than a drink or two, and doesn't immediately say yes to the first girl to ask for a dance. On the other hand, the stage dance is required of all dancers, so why not make an effort?

[ripleymonroe 794]

Combine all that -- someone who is making an effort, who catches your eye and flashes you a smile -- will be at the top of my list for a private dance, versus someone who walks around the stage all bored like, then spends the rest of the time hustling for dances. And I do feel there is a correlation with the quality of the private dances as well -- if the dancer doesn't make an effort on stage, why should I think a private dance would be any different?

 

I agree with you - it's a huge turn-off for me to see someone on stage who appears completely bored (or too drunk or high to the extent that it's probably becoming too dangerous for her to be up there..that makes me cringe and clubs that let that happen piss me off.. but that's another subject).

 

Everybody has "off" days and that's totally understandable - I just won't get a dance with someone on an 'off' day... but I might buy her a drink if I know her. ;)

 

However, I'm not sure that a woman's dance on stage is a good indication of her performance in private. I very rarely ask a woman to dance for me without seeing her stage show, but in the instances where I have been completely intrigued by a dancer just from talking with her, she was amazing in the CR (but later, when I finally got to see her on stage, the show was not impressive at all).

 

I would say that women who give a good show on stage have to work less harder than the boring dancers to get customers to come in for private dances with them... at least that's what I've observed in the clubs. I remember one case where a dancer went all out, her show was way out there and she'd grab the hats of men in "perv's row" and wear them and the other dancers hated it! But I explained to them that it worked for the clients - the men loved her.

 

And you're right... long eye contact and a smile from someone on-stage can be an intense experience. It always starts with eye contact. :)

[whiteman 14028]

I'd say the dancers don't necessarily have to fully athletic to put on a good stage show. It could be just as simple as finding the right choice of music and dancing well and in sync to it.

[scribbles 6031]

I was married to a woman who became a dancer when I was living in the US, and it was very different there.

 

For one thing, contact was forbidden. My lizard brain doesn't like that, but the more evolved parts of me know that it's also a reason why the stage show was so much more successful. There, dancers I was friends with would easily make several hundred dollars a night off of stage tips. There were a few who were simply outstanding. I remember one who called herself Sin; very goth with the tatts and piercings, and danced to Marilyn Manson. But, man was she acrobatic and athletic. She was simply amazing to watch, as well as stunning.

 

That's why feature performers are still common in the states. Jenna Haze travels extensively as a feature dancer, as well as others.

 

When's the last time you saw someone tip well at the stage? Not often, I'd say. And, until it becomes more common, the ladies will treat the stage show as an unfortunate necessity instead of a staple of their business. Don't get me wrong I (lizard brain) love the contact of the CR, but miss the class of the stage performance.