Sp's - I'm curious about the business side.

[d0thedoo 100]

Ladies I?m curious about the business side of the industry and would really appreciate if you?d take the time to answer some of these questions.

I see websites specifying specific services (FS, GFE, PSE, CBJ, etc); is this legal to specify the services and keep the agency as an escort, not a prostitution business? And what sort of reasons do police conduct raids/busts ? what are the agencies/independents doing that get them busted. Does an agency also have to worry about municipal by-laws.

Is advertising illegal for escorts? Where do you tend to get most of your clients from? What reasons would there be for an agency to fail/close/bankrupt?

Are incalls legal, aren?t brothels illegal, what?s the difference?

What are your typical legal costs per year? What are your typical medical costs per year? What frequency and types of testing do you do?

What?s the advantage of working for an agency over being an independent?

Are drivers also security? I assume they don?t sit in their car and wait, but rather leave to drop off/pick up other women then come back at the determined time? Are drivers paid by the agency (and how much), or strictly by tips?

Do agencies tend to have a physical location, or is it typically the individual SP working out of their home?

How many clients a night do you typically meet? How many hours a week do you tend to work? How much do you walk away with after the agency and everyone gets paid.

Is there a lot of competition between agencies and are they often linked with organized crime?

I know these are a lot of questions, my business mind is always working and I?d really be interested for your answers and any other business answers/advise you?d have for someone considering starting up an agency.

[Miss Scarlett 25073]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0330-e.htm

[Emma Alexandra 123367]

can be answered here:

http://cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7569

[d*mm*y 887]

With these kind of questions I am not sure that the business is your calling? This is a business and it has all the challenges of any other business but with added stress of A-typical employees and difficulties around the legalities, if you are in the early stages I would consider virtually any other business before going to this one.

 

Ladies I?m curious about the business side of the industry and would really appreciate if you?d take the time to answer some of these questions.

 

I see websites specifying specific services (FS, GFE, PSE, CBJ, etc); is this legal to specify the services and keep the agency as an escort, not a prostitution business? And what sort of reasons do police conduct raids/busts ? what are the agencies/independents doing that get them busted. Does an agency also have to worry about municipal by-laws.

 

Is advertising illegal for escorts? Where do you tend to get most of your clients from? What reasons would there be for an agency to fail/close/bankrupt?

 

Are incalls legal, aren?t brothels illegal, what?s the difference?

 

What are your typical legal costs per year? What are your typical medical costs per year? What frequency and types of testing do you do?

 

What?s the advantage of working for an agency over being an independent?

 

Are drivers also security? I assume they don?t sit in their car and wait, but rather leave to drop off/pick up other women then come back at the determined time? Are drivers paid by the agency (and how much), or strictly by tips?

 

Do agencies tend to have a physical location, or is it typically the individual SP working out of their home?

 

How many clients a night do you typically meet? How many hours a week do you tend to work? How much do you walk away with after the agency and everyone gets paid.

 

Is there a lot of competition between agencies and are they often linked with organized crime?

 

I know these are a lot of questions, my business mind is always working and I?d really be interested for your answers and any other business answers/advise you?d have for someone considering starting up an agency.

[mod 135639]

Cherry, I hate to say it but your giving out some bad info.

 

Hi, The law in Ontario is to offer a sexual favor in exchange for MONEY in what is considered a public place... So answering your services is ok, as long as you don't ask for money for them in public!

 

The law is not a Ontario law (It is the criminal code of canada - nation wide) and you are correct that public solicitation is illegal. You can not discuss sex for money in a public place (Including a hotel hallway or lobby)

 

Yes brothells are against the law because they are open to the public, which is when the police primarily set up stings!!! In calls to private locations are very much legal!

 

Actually, the law makes no distinction between a brothel and a incall location. Both are considered a "Common bawdy house" (A place where prostitution is done on a regular basis) most law enforcement do not bother with single ladies working from a apartment unless public complaints (usually due to high foot traffic) are made. Places like massage spa's that offer sex and outright brothels are the main target for this law but to consider any in-call location legal would be very wrong. Outcall prostitution in Canada with no public solicitation is legal.

 

Advertising is not against the law as long as you don't ask for money for sex... That's why most girls ask for "roses"...

 

This is a myth that has been inherited from our neighbours to the south (USA) where prositution is illegal so they find creative ways to say sex for money. In Canada no law exists for advertising in the media or online and since the law definces public solicitation as "A place in public" it does not include magazines, internet and newsprint. You can say whayever you want in Canada at this time in the media... what you want to avoid is advertising something illegal like public sex acts or sex at a massage spa (This would get you busted very quickly)

 

Pimping (aka: Living off the avails of prostitution) is illegal so agencies must be careful how they work. If the agency employees the ladies the agency is living off the avails. If the ladies employ the agency to market them, answer calls, schedule them, pay for advertising, etc... and give them a commission for this (The ladies pay the agency for the agencies services) this becomes a gray area of the law and is much more legit. If the agency is acting like a pimp and telling the ladies when to work (Often involves drugs and abuse) this is very much illegal.

 

Have a read through the criminal code of canada (Section 210 - 213) you do not need to be a lawyer to read this (It's in regular clear english).

 

It would be foolish to accept anyone's comments here as actual fact (Including my own) so don't. If you have questions about the law go speak to a lawyer who specializes in criminal law. Each municipality may have laws for licensing of escorts and massage as well (You should get a copy of any local bylaw and read it to prevent being harrassed. If you are a prostitute the city can not legally license you so they define "Escort" as someone who does not hav sex and force the escorts to pay this license to use the word "Escort" in their advertising. (Winnipeg, Calgary and Windsor are very well known for "bad" licensing issues from the municipality)

[SamanthaEvans 166766]

I met with a long-time friend who is also a criminal lawyer today. I wanted to go over a number of things including my website.

 

He's never represented a provider in any legal action, but has represented a few men who have been charged with being found in bawdy houses, so his advice might be incomplete, or too cautious. With that caveat, he was very helpful, particularly about incall locations.

 

Basically, he said that any place that is used for prostitution on a regular basis qualifies as a bawdy house. So a provider who works from home can be charged with keeping a bawdy house even if they're the only one working there. They can also be charged if they rent another location and use that for their workplace. However, in Vancouver at least, the police aren't interested in charging providers who keep things low-key and quiet, he said. If there are complaints from neighbours, the police might be interested then, depending on the neighbourhood.

 

He also told me that, in this province, a landlord can evict a tenant if she is using her rented home as an incall location. This is because the landlord could be considered to be "living off the avails of prostitution," which is a crime.

 

Providers who have live-in partners who are not sex workers can also be charged with "living off the avails."

 

In the end, it's all about keeping things very quiet and low-key, he said.

 

He also told me to be vague about what I do in my website descriptions, not to refer to specific activities, even with acronyms like CBJ, not to show any images with my face (which I wasn't doing anyway), and to limit the images I do use to a couple of artistic shots. Those pics are of me, but are in an antique style and don't snow any frontal nudity. He said that if anyone queried the photos as implied offers of sexual activity, the connection between the old-style photos and sexual acts isn't explicit. They're less explicit than many works of art, he said.

 

Overall, though, he said that independent providers aren't under scrutiny in general in this province, and aren't likely to be unless there are complaints about noise, traffic and drugs. He did wonder what would happen if a disgruntled client went to the police if he was angry about a bait-and-switch operation, both because it's a complaint, and it could point to the involvement of others who might be assumed to be pimping or otherwise living off the avails. None of that relates to me.

 

I think that it's a good idea to get independent legal advice and not to take anyone's word for what's legal and what's not, wherever you are. My friend's opinion is just one opinion, other lawyers might see things differently.

[VedaSloan 119179]

Most of this has already been covered by other posters, but since I'm actually giving two lectures on this particular subject, I'll chime in.

 

In the Criminal Code of Canada (CCC) the following sections pertain to prostitution specifically:

 

section 210 outlaws what are called "common bawdy houses."

section 211 makes it illegal to take or direct a person to a bawdy-house.

section 212 prohibits "procuring" prostitution or "living on the avails" of prostitution.

section 213 outlaws "communicating for the purpose of prostitution."

 

So what does this actually mean? It means that while exchanging money for sex is legal, the CCC creates a web of offenses which make it almost impossible to work legally in this profession.

 

Section 210, the bawdy house laws: It is illegal to work in, keep or to even just be in a bawdy house. Anyone found by police in a common bawdy house, whether they are a sex worker, another employee, or a client, can be arrested and charged. This particular law forces sex workers to make a difficult choice. If a sex worker wants to work indoors and in a place where they have more control over their own safety, they risk being charged under the bawdy-house law.

 

So what is a bawdy house? This law dates back to 1892, when a bawd was another term for a woman who ran a brothel. But under the law, bawdy houses are more than just brothels: a common bawdy house under the law, is ANY place that someone keeps or occupies for the puprose of prostitution (or for "the practice of acts of indecency"). Even if this is not its primary purpose, if it is used on a regular basis for prositution then it can be considered an illegal bawdy house. So, a brothel, your home, hotels, massage or body-rub parlours are all illegal under the law. Clients' homes are legal as long as the place is not used frequently or regularly for prostitution. Parking lots and cars can also be found to be a common bawdy house if it is used regularly for prostitution.

 

Anyone who breaks this law may get a fine of up to $2000 or up to six months in jail, or both. Keeping a bawdy house carries a maximum sentence of up to two years in jail. If someone is convicted of keeping a bawdy house, the law states the the owner, landlord or tenant of that property must be notified and if s/he does not evict the worker and the sex worker is later convicted again for using the same property, the landlord or owner can be convicted of keeping a bawdy house.

 

Section 212 makes it illegal to talk a person into engaging in prostitution, or to talk a person into purchasing sexual services (you can't make referrals either). It is also illegal to profit off the prostitution of someone else. So what does this mean? It means that anyone who regularly spends time or lives with a sex worker is assumed to be living on the avails of prostitution. It is illegal for a sex worker to refer a client to another sex worker, it is also illegal for clients to refer sex workers to friends. It is also illegal for a sex worker to invite another sex worker to join.

 

In the Downey case of 1992, the Supreme Court of Canada said that 'living on the avails' offence should be used only against a person who lives "parasitically" off a sex workers earnings. By this, the court means someone the sex worker has no legal or moral obligation to support (ie pimps).

 

As we all know it is illegal communicate for the purpose of prostitution in public (213), so what constitutes public?

 

A "public place" includes the street, parks, bars and even inside cars.

 

Sex workers (usually women) receive much harsher penalties than clients (usually men) do when they are convicted under the communicating section. According to Stats Canada, women:

 

-get sentenced to prison more often than men;

-get longer prison sentences than men;

-do not get probation as often as men;

-if they do get probation, usually get twice as long; and

-are not offered diversion programs such as "john school" nearly often as men.

 

Other laws which are not directly related to prostitution, but which cops often used against sex workers:

 

Section 173: indecent acts in a public place

Section 89-90: carrying a weapon

Section 403: identifying oneself with a name other than one's own

Section 139: obstruction of justice

Section 129: interfering with the work of a police officer.

 

 

I hope that helps!

 

Basically, if you are a discreet with your ads and screen your clientele and do not work out of your home, you are pretty safe from the law. Generally, police bust street workers more often because they are the most visible group of sex workers.

[VedaSloan 119179]

What are your typical legal costs per year? What are your typical medical costs per year? What frequency and types of testing do you do?

 

I have no legal costs, as I have never had problems with the law, or needed a lawyer. My medical costs are also quite low, as STD testing is free. I get tested every two months and I cover ALL STD's and HIV.

 

What?s the advantage of working for an agency over being an independent?

 

The advantage is that you do not have to worry about scheduling or any discussion of services (this particularly irks me, it's no fun when things are talked about like an itemized bill). As well, you have a driver and there are security measures in place. The downside is that the agency takes a cut of your money and you are forced to charge for "extras" (anything beyond one shot) in order to make up the money you lost to the agency.

 

Are drivers also security? I assume they don?t sit in their car and wait, but rather leave to drop off/pick up other women then come back at the determined time? Are drivers paid by the agency (and how much), or strictly by tips?

 

The driver will stay if you ask him too (but usually you have to give him a tip, 5-10 bucks). The driver is paid by the agency.

 

Do agencies tend to have a physical location, or is it typically the individual SP working out of their home?

 

Some agencies have an incall location (which would be considered illegal), but most agencies do outcalls (ie the girl goes to the client's home).

 

How many clients a night do you typically meet? How many hours a week do you tend to work? How much do you walk away with after the agency and everyone gets paid.

 

Through the agency, I typically get 1-2 clients a night (the minimum shift is six hours). I generally work four evenings a week and can make anywhere from $400-900 a week. I also work independently and add another $500-1000 to that per week. Please note however, that I am a very low volume pro and work only part-time.

 

Is there a lot of competition between agencies and are they often linked with organized crime?

 

There is some competition between agencies. I have heard of other agencies calling their competition and sending girls on bogus calls.

[Missy Mariposa 234]

I wrote about some of the costs of this profession in my blog:

 

http://ingodwetryst.blogspot.com/2009/02/cost.html

 

This is all I'm really willing to discuss with someone that isn't a provider.

[mod 135639]

That is a good link you posted cherrykiss and I am glad you removed your post with the bad info.

 

I would guess this conversation has made you (and hopefully some others) wish to research more info and learn more about the laws for this business.

 

Unfortunately a lot of BAD info gets passed around about what is legal and what is not.... I say don't beleive everything you read or everything you are told - find the answers yourself and be better off for it!

 

I really would urge anyone involved in either side of this business to educate yourself on the legalities of prosittution in Canada. It is legal but you must follow the laws to ensure you are doing things legally.

 

Knowing the laws will only make you less paranoid and will help you play smarter.

[PistolPete 61421]

After reading again, I like to applaud Cherrykiss for removing her original thread and inserting the link. Also, very excellent eye opener thread for everyone hear to read and pay attention too.

[mod 135639]

I always wondered if the "members only private club" approach where members pay to become a member gets around the "common bawdy house" classification. I think it does but I am always concerned about it.

 

Yes and No, as we all know private sex clubs such as "swingers" clubs are now legal. This is because no one is being paid for sex. Now as a private members club my understanding is that it would not fall under any municipal license requirements (For example: body rub parlor license) so the club would not have to follow the municipal rules and regulations (often very strict) of a public body rub parlor.... that comes at a price however. You can not market/advertise your club as anything but a private mens club. As soon as you say "Massage" or "Body Rub" or anything like that you would need a license (members only or not) so your advertising would be very limited to what you could SAY it is.

 

Now if someone in the club is being paid to have sex than it would be a bawdy house (No way around that one) and it would be just a matter of time before they are shut down. If you could get around that one we would have 100's of them across Canada I am sure.

 

Some places are very much on the border of this law. The laws have some gray areas here. (HJ's, Body Slides, Nude Massage, reverse nude massage, dom (bdsm.sm), etc... etc..) none of these involve intercourse so it leaves some people and places in the gray area.

[d*mm*y 887]

I remember the "private Smoking clubs" they was done in very fast in a court of law. I think that a club offering happy endings would got the same route if someone prosecuted. however I have 0 actual experience with the law so this is just a speculation on my part. I believe by keeping the club private and in a non residential area I think it is not worth anyone's time to investigate or prosecute, however if a few of them pop up I think it could change quickly.

 

I always wondered if the "members only private club" approach where members pay to become a member gets around the "common bawdy house" classification. I think it does but I am always concerned about it.

[whatsup 11893]

I know of a location that advertises that they are a discreet Escort and Massage Studio and you pay a room fee - gratuities not included of course.

 

Just wondering about this type of arrangement ????

 

 

[mod 135639]

Common bawdy house for sure. No way around that one.

[raven_2000 100]

Great post. I have a question. Seeing how the subject of pimps was brought up and living off of the avals of others, where, do the Pimps who pimp strippers fall under. There are quite a number of Pimps in Ottawa who deal with the Strippers. Is that legal? Technically there is no sex involved with the strippers clients, but, they are still living off of what they do. And if it is Illegal then why does the RCMP not round these guys up. All you have to do is go inside any club in Ottawa or Tonronto or Montreal and they are there watching or husstling the girls.

[Alex B. Symone 12923]

I was thinking that a really good criminal law would try to argue this no one likes to lose in court so there has to be a argument in there, right?

 

Bawdy house- ANY place that someone keeps or occupies for the puprose of prostitution (or for "the practice of acts of indecency"). Even if this is not its primary purpose, if it is used on a regular basis for prositution then it can be considered an illegal bawdy house

 

what would be 'Indecent'?

 

Indecent-offending against generally accepted standards of propriety or good taste; improper; vulgar: indecent jokes; indecent language; indecent behavior.

 

Is sex indecent?

in public it would be, but when you take it into a private place that changes no?

 

I am just taking a stab in the dark but a good lawyer would come up with something ever case would differ based on what has been said and done. Like with any case.

 

A good lawyer would find an argument to challenge the bawdy house law, And not just plead guilty right? I am sure that a lawyer that doesn't settle for second best would bring an argument to the court room there has to be on in there I mean if one can beat a murder charge, then a bawdy house charge should not be a walk n the park...

 

I hope I haven't ruffled to many feathers. After going to court for the Bylaw infractions last month (and Winning :) ) i can see now there are sooo many ways to argue both sides of a one case or similar cases so there must be a way around a bawdy house charge, maybe we just don't see it yet...

[mod 135639]

Great post. I have a question. Seeing how the subject of pimps was brought up and living off of the avals of others, where, do the Pimps who pimp strippers fall under. There are quite a number of Pimps in Ottawa who deal with the Strippers. Is that legal? Technically there is no sex involved with the strippers clients, but, they are still living off of what they do. And if it is Illegal then why does the RCMP not round these guys up. All you have to do is go inside any club in Ottawa or Tonronto or Montreal and they are there watching or husstling the girls.

 

Hi Raven. "Living off the avails" is short for "Living off the avails of prostitution" Just easier to say it without the word prostitution and some people are offended by the term prostitute so it is left out usually.

 

The booking agents are paid by the clubs (the ladies do not pay the agents) and unless the booking agent is telling the girls they have to have sex with clients they really are not pimps.

 

Back when I worked in clubs the booking agent would get about 100.00 to 120.00 per week per girl. (It's not as glorious a job as some may think from the outside - and it is really nothing like pimping ... people just joke around and call the booking agents "stripper pimps" but really the ladies pretty much tell the booking agent where they want to work and the booking agent sets it up for them with the clubs. Rarely will you find the actual booking agent at the club. Maybe once a week or even once a month to invoice the club, chat with the ladies and make sure they are happy and ask them where they would like to work next and get paid by the club as well (usually the club has a cheque or envelope waiting for them).

 

I am surprised they still have booking agents to be honest. The clubs were stealing the girls from the agents (offering the girls a "House" job dancing to avoid paying the agency fee's and the girls would stop booking with the agents).. the clubs did this so often that the agents when I worked in the business were pretty much all gone.

 

They are entertainment booking houses (Musicians who play casino and bar gigs also use entertainment booking agents - not much difference really except these days I bet the musician booking agents make more).

 

I am sure pimps get involved with the clubs that allow "Extra's" and book exotic dancers as well as actually pimp the girls for sex but most "Booking Agents" are not pimps.

 

I have been out of the gentleman's club business for many years now but I am sure things have not changed that much.

 

The living off the avails part is only for prostitution (Sex). If the exotic dancer was having sex with clients in the clubs the police would be charging the club with bawdy house charges and the booking agent would never even be considered unless one of the ladies said "My agent told me I had to have sex with clients".

[Seymour 3970]

Everyone should read this thread - especially those that are new to either the provider world or client world. As mentioned before, everyone's risk tolerance is different. Whatever your decision, play safe.