Do You Believe In Love?

[drlove 37204]

I've been doing some thinking about relationships. It seems that the idea of marriage or even being in a committed relationship doesn't carry the same weight as it did in my parent's generation. Of all my friends who have taken the leap of faith and gotten hitched, not one relationship has stood the test of time. It's either divorce city, or ending up trapped in a loveless marriage, sleeping in separate beds with SO's on the side. These days, marriage is akin to spending a few years with someone, grabbing all you can in the (eventual) divorce settlement, and then moving on, for better or worse. It's not if you get divorced, but when... sad state of affairs really.

 

I've never gone that route, and in some respects I consider myself lucky. I'd be content with the prospect of a long term relationship, but even those are difficult to attain. In my experience, they've started out with a flurry of unbridled lust and passion... not love per se, but more along the lines of infatuation and obsession. The women I've dated were only too quick to begin talk of moving in and having children, which in my estimation is incredibly ironic since the unions ended up being short lived. These trends, or themes seem endemic to today's societal culture which doesn't seem to be grounded in anything concrete.

 

This has caused me to shy away from the notion of romance and gravitate more toward the hobby, which I find refreshing in many respects - not least of which is the fact that it's very upfront and honest, which is more than I can say for many bonafide relationships. You always know where you stand here, as everything is based on full disclosure before the fact. At the very least, it eliminates any nasy surprises when you least expect them. That said, I still hold out hope for the future, but it begs the question, is perennial happiness achievable?

[Guest N***he**Ont**y]

Love can and does happen. It is the falling out of love after being two timed over period of time that hurts. It hurts even more when you really have to end it and move on after all the lies you have been told and feelings of being used.

[MightyPen 67414]

Personal happiness and fulfilling relationships are entirely achievable -- but you knew that already. I think the real question is "how are they achieved?", and that's more complicated.

 

Let me start by saying that relationships with SPs can be *very* rewarding and honest and valuable, but they do come with built-in limitations. They're a bit like relationships with training wheels, because they have such safe, clearly defined boundaries, and because the relationship is only there for a few hours at a time when you want it, and it's never there and places no demands on you when you don't. You can learn a lot about yourself and how it's possible to behave intimately with others in a client-SP relationship; but I think those are lessons we need to carry into other "real" relationships, rather than settling on those relationships as the final product.

 

In other posts I've compared the client-SP relationship to the one you might have with a psychotherapist: the professional you're seeing is a real, whole person, and probably really does care about you, and you can have some very honest and intimate and important exchanges about really important things -- BUT it's still a professional relationship, it only happens within specific boundaries, and it only happens one all-too-brief appointment at a time. Your psychotherapist cares about you, and can play an important, healthy role in your life, but she's not literally your *friend*, she's your therapist. I'm certain that SPs can genuinely come to care about the clients they see often enough to get to know, but the same limitations apply.

 

Other relationships: yeah, marriage is pretty disposable these days. I've posted at least once before here about the withering away of traditional institutions, and that we tend to look first to our individual fulfillment and happiness. In many ways that's a very good thing; being trapped within a broken institution (marriage, church, whatever) ruined many, many lives during the long period when nobody dared challenge those institutions. But on the other hand, putting ourselves first can make us give up on the things we belong to sooner than we should.

 

You just need to find good, well-grounded people who are able to take care of themselves but also commit to, and make sacrifices for, the relationship and the life you can build together. And of course you need to be that person too: willing to compromise, work with the assets your partner brings, and forgive him or her for any weaknesses. It varies with the couple, but sometimes sex plays only the teeniest, tiniest role in that life. That's why the carnal joys of that first glow in the early days of a relationship may be a terrible predictor of how you're going to do together long-term. They're two whole different sets of skills and assets.

 

I never married either. Explaining why would make this long post even longer, so we'll skip that. Really short version would be that I was a late bloomer -- in some respects, *too* late. I sometimes envy the people who found each other in their early 20s, married, and built a life and family together right from the start. By the time you're in your 30s and 40s, you're already off that path and the thing you're looking to build is different than it was in your 20s. But on the other hand, as you say, there are at more disastrous early marriages than there are success stories.

 

You've just got to keep looking for mature, well-grounded people, those who aren't grasping or materialistic, who have some wisdom about them and have grown from their experiences in life. And agree to build a life together, and have fun seeing what that cooperative effort looks like, instead of using the relationship solely to complete our own personal, rigid checklists. The life you build with someone else is going to look different from the one you'd build solo; that's the cost and the benefit of involving someone else in the project. I think that coming to terms with that is one of the hurdles that gives many people trouble.

 

The pool of such people isn't that large, it's true. And they grow harder to find as time passes. But it's worth the effort, and I know that these relationships do happen.

[Guest N***he**Ont**y]

Sometimes its very hard to forgive too!

[mrgreen760 37785]

Yup...even more so as I get older. It's what makes the world go around...

 

Peace

MG

[Boomer 33202]

I think you have a cynical idea of marriage. I suppose I would be more like your parents generation, and my union did survive until my wife's death. One takes an oath at the wedding, and maybe it's a matter that todays partners don't understand that fact and that their word doesn't carry the same weight. Marriage has it's ups and downs and takes a lot of work to make it work.

 

I also disagree with your assertion that a relationship with an SP is a more honest. Seeing an Sp behind your partners back is a cop out if you hold it up as a substitute for a lack of intimacy in your relationship. It just means that you lazy and aren't communicating and doing the hard work at maintaining your marriage. If you're not having sex then it's a pretty clear indication you have been ignoring the things that are important, i.e. when the wife comes home worn out from a day at work, you take her out to supper or get her to sit down while you do supper.

 

As a married person, once you embrace this lifestyle it's pretty hard to go back. I am a widower and can participate here as I don't really expect to have an other long time partner, unless it happens by chance.

[MightyPen 67414]

Seeing an Sp behind your partners back is a cop out if you hold it up as a substitute for a lack of intimacy in your relationship. It just means that you lazy and aren't communicating and doing the hard work at maintaining your marriage.

Well, hang on though. That's a bit sweeping. I think we've seen some stories posted here about guys in really tough circumstances, who have tried hard in their relationships, but sadly and reluctantly reach a point where they feel they need to look for other options.

 

I'm certain there are people (men and women) whose eyes rove too soon, as you say, and who end up either in affairs or seeking paid companionship when they didn't have to. But I'm also certain that life is full of surprises, and the lives of others shouldn't be judged quickly. It's a grey and complicated world out there.

[mrrnice2 157005]

Yes it is. :)

[drlove 37204]

I think you have a cynical idea of marriage.

 

I also disagree with your assertion that a relationship with an SP is a more honest.

 

Perhaps it is a bit cynical, but I find it increasingly difficult to trust that "things will all work out" when I haven't seen it happen, save for my parents. Moreover, the older I get, the less I'm willing to change - that is, share my home with someone etc.. I guess I've gotten used to the status quo and don't cherish the though of giving up a lot of my independence.

 

As for a relationship with an SP being more honest, I only meant that they will tell you the cost upfront, whereas with a marriage its' often "till death do us part" right up until the divorce when it becomes "I want half". I've seen it happen - my best friend's brother's ex wife totally cleaned him out. Last I heard, he was reduced to living rent free in one of his father's apartment buildings just to make ends meet. Scary thought... Granted, I realize this isn't always the case, ,and relationships can and do work out. It's just that the odds seem stacked against you these days, from my perspective, anyway.

[tokan 16826]

Call me sentimental but I do believe in love. I just have to look at my parents who have been married close to 40 years and can see they still love and care for each other deeply. Now I know in today's world that is a bit of a rarity but it is refreshing to see also. I guess to be honest I just couldn't see myself settling down with someone unless I really truly cared for them, although I'm still relatively young and who knows how I'll feel in 10 years but right now I'm in no rush.

 

And as for things always working out well recent experience with people I know has kind of shown when things get really rough they don't always work out. I've seen two very messy divorces recently that I guess you could say have made me realize there can be a darker side to marriage, especially during a nasty divorce. But I've also seen other couples able to work things out as well. So I still hold out some hope.

[roamingguy 300292]

I believe in love. But whether love lasts forever or for a short period of time is another question. I still hold the belief that love/marriage should last till death do us part (death due to normal natural causes of course LOL) Guess that comes from the era I grew up in. But love is an emotion. A relationship requires much more than just an emotion, you are sharing in every which way shape and form your life with another person

Whether divorce is due to people finding it easier to to split than to work on their marriage I don't know. And frankly generalizations are hard since each and every relationship is unique.

From a guy who as it turns out, is happy he is single and never got married

RG

[check 100]

I think its all a matter of fate or luck (whaterver u want to call it)... some people end up with their soulmates (they sacrifice stuff for each other, they fight but solve it out)... and some just cant find the right match.. If u r lucky, u find the right mate and he/she feels the same about you. Also, need some effort to keep the boat afloat. So, then... luck and then effort it is!

[Guest]

I believe in love , but love is over-rated ..

[nntsci 11076]

"That said, I still hold out hope for the future, but it begs the question, is perennial happiness achievable?"

 

Happiness through marriage? Are you seriously asking people on a web site devoted to linking customers and escort service providers if perennial happiness through marriage is possible. Hummmm, well, lets see, if I could regularly have fun with some other woman while remaining married, than sure happiness is possible.

 

What people feel is love is largely a bonding instinct that evolved to produce children. It does this very efficiently. We love our children, but that is similarly a bonding instinct which has evolved to keep the children alive, long enough to have their own children. Without that bonding instinct, few kids would make it to adulthood. To be honest, I doubt any would make it past the first temper tantrum. But romantic love only last long enough to get the kids born and started towards adult life and after that it fades. My kids are teenagers and I suspect my bond with my spousal unit has run its course though neither my wife or I are in any hurry to move on. In her case she likes the rather comfy life style of a 6 figure family income and a husband who cooks gormet food about 2 times a week, and I like not having to cook the rest of the week and about 50% of the food she actually cooks. Thats love for you.

[JoyfulC 132299]

I believe in love, but I never hoped for it before it happened to me.

 

Oh, all through my life, I experienced love in some limited sense with people I connected with.

 

But one day, about 30 years ago, I found love. I never expected it. It just happened. I don't know if some love only lasts a short while. I just happened to stumble into a love that lasts a lifetime. Not sure what I did to deserve it.

[Aspen Wilde 31370]

"Love is a feeling that in me and through me I have often called God." -Shane Koyczan, poet.

 

Yes I believe in love.

 

Yes sometimes love is confusing, painful, strange, short, and brutal.

 

But I think that love is an unconditional celebration of existence- of a person, an idea, a place- anything. To love is to revel in what is, without hope or expectation that is will last in the future.

 

And as far as I have discerned, it is one of the most important experiences in life. Call me a hippie, it's true!

[lipualipua 4704]

Perhaps it is a bit cynical, but I find it increasingly difficult to trust that "things will all work out" when I haven't seen it happen, save for my parents. Moreover, the older I get, the less I'm willing to change - that is, share my home with someone etc.. I guess I've gotten used to the status quo and don't cherish the though of giving up a lot of my independence.

 

As for a relationship with an SP being more honest, I only meant that they will tell you the cost upfront, whereas with a marriage its' often "till death do us part" right up until the divorce when it becomes "I want half". I've seen it happen - my best friend's brother's ex wife totally cleaned him out. Last I heard, he was reduced to living rent free in one of his father's apartment buildings just to make ends meet. Scary thought... Granted, I realize this isn't always the case, ,and relationships can and do work out. It's just that the odds seem stacked against you these days, from my perspective, anyway.

"I guess I've gotten used to the status quo and don't cherish the though of giving up a lot of my independence."

 

My feelings, exactly.

[roamingguy 300292]

"I guess I've gotten used to the status quo and don't cherish the though of giving up a lot of my independence."

 

My feelings, exactly.

 

I find the older I get, the more set in my ways I've gotten. Makes it hard to give up my independence to share my life with someone else.

At home, I'm master of the remote control LOL

RG

[Guest N***he**Ont**y]

I miss the companionship for the most part and the weekend side trips we would make exploring small towns and villages in the North. Damn I even miss the yard sales she used to drag me too. Well the past is past and you have to move on!

[Katherine of Halifax 113932]

Call me sentimental but I do believe in love. I just have to look at my parents who have been married close to 40 years and can see they still love and care for each other deeply. Now I know in today's world that is a bit of a rarity but it is refreshing to see also. I guess to be honest I just couldn't see myself settling down with someone unless I really truly cared for them, although I'm still relatively young and who knows how I'll feel in 10 years but right now I'm in no rush.

 

And as for things always working out well recent experience with people I know has kind of shown when things get really rough they don't always work out. I've seen two very messy divorces recently that I guess you could say have made me realize there can be a darker side to marriage, especially during a nasty divorce. But I've also seen other couples able to work things out as well. So I still hold out some hope.

 

Oops totally agree you are so correct. :icon_smile:

[northerntantra 4671]

... It seems that the idea of marriage or even being in a committed relationship doesn't carry the same weight as it did in my parent's generation ... The women I've dated were only too quick to begin talk of moving in and having children... You always know where you stand here, as everything is based on full disclosure before the fact. At the very least, it eliminates any nasty surprises when you least expect them. That said, I still hold out hope for the future, but it begs the question, is perennial happiness achievable?

 

Society, I believe, created the institution of marriage as a means to provide the stability and safety necessary to allow a woman to be pregnant and then raise children until they are old enough to fend for themselves. We are fortunate enough to live in a country where, and at a time when, war is not on our doorstep; where we can walk the streets at night most anywhere in relative safety; where everyone has enough food and water that they are not in fear of someone taking theirs from them; and where we have the freedom to say what we think and be different from one another. And so, to some extent, the trappings and protections of marriage are somewhat anachronistic here in Canada, and in most "developed" nations.

 

Advances in birth control and prenatal/neonatal care have made it possible for woman to explore their sexuality earlier and longer than ever before, with less risk of losing a child or their own life. Civil law provides financial security to woman (and men) who find themselves parenting a child on their own. Organized Religion is no longer viewed as the sole arbiter of morality and ethics.

 

So is marriage relevant any more? For many, given the statistics on common law marriage, I guess not. But I think it still has its place in our society. I married when I was young -- just 22 years old. We had children, raised them, and were good friends for over 25 years. Were we in love? Yes, certainly. We we great lovers? No, not really. Did it last? Well, for about 25 years ... by which time we'd drifted far enough apart that we were headed for a break up. Then she became seriously ill with cancer. She died several years ago.

 

I've since remarried, and taken on teenaged step-children. My new wife and I have a far more "flexible" contract -- a sign of the times, perhaps, but one which recognizes today's reality. We both have had our children. We both enjoy exploring our sexuality, with each other and when so desired and we can do so safely, with others from time to time. Being married allows us to support each other, pool our resources, save for our retirement, finish raising and educating the children, take care of one another during sickness, etc.

 

For me, at least, I've chosen not just to get married -- I've chosen to live a married life. Not once, but twice now. I know I would not be happy living the life of a single man. It's just who I am. I count myself as very fortunate to have found not one, but two people whom I loved enough to want to be with nearly 24/7. And I'm doubly fortunate to have found, in my second wife, a woman who is smart, beautiful, sexy and not at all conservative in her views on sex and marriage.

 

Married life isn't for everyone. Thankfully, the social pressure to be married, while still quite strong, is not as strong as it used to be. Times have changed, and sexual, living and child-rearing arrangements have evolved, and are still evolving. We have more options now, and I'll probably see even more added before the end of my lifetime.

 

Perhaps the biggest factor impacting marriage today is that we are living longer and staying healthier well into our 80's and 90's. While our pioneer ancestors might have gotten married at 14, had children, and perhaps died by the time they were 35, we are living long enough for two such lifetimes. I can tell you from personal experience that 30 years of living with someone is a very very long time. It's no wonder that there are so many people in their 50's today who are getting divorced after long term marriages ... faced with another 30 or 40 years of the same life, they may be hungry for a change. But the traditional (monogamous) marriage contract doesn't permit that. And no one seems to include "till bored to death do us part" in their vows :smile: Infidelity remains the one absolute condition for divorce in most jurisdictions, but we may see even that erode as courts come to grips with our ever increasing lifespans.

 

I believe in love. And I believe we have an infinite capacity for love. I believe in marriage. And I believe that if you want to get married, you need to be prepared to live a married life.

[Amelia Fox 9064]

Sadly I do not believe in true love! I believe you build a strong,committed bond with someone and of course sex and intimacy are apart of that but after time that does go away,and your ultimately left to sort through all the emotions of it not working out,and the years you feel were wasted.

[BownChickaBown 4829]

Believing in Love is easy - I KNOW I Love WOMEN!! :D

 

My Dating profile is simple: NOT an Asshole - Seeks Same.

 

Yet, you might be surprised to hear I have not found anyone whom meets this basic criteria in 20+ years of being on 'the market'. So, as a realist (without holding my breathe), I simply continue to have recreational sex with beneficial friends and SPs until such time I may find an honest, caring and loving lady whom is interested in sharing a relationship which creates and cultivates a better life for the both of us as we grow old together.

 

Seems like most people I encounter are more concerned with superficial pretentiousness, and individualism, in their character rather than integrity, family and community spirit in making the world a better place for everyone - and not just themselves. ...but I digress.

 

All the best in life and love - in the meantime - Shag On Brother! Shag On!!

[nntsci 11076]

>Infidelity remains the one absolute condition for divorce in most jurisdictions, but we may see even that erode as courts come to grips with our ever increasing lifespans.

 

In Canada we have no fault divorces which means that there is no need for fault for a divorce and infidelity is really irrelevant to the whole thing. The main issues during divorce all centre on who gets which assets and making arrangements for shared custody of minor kids (joint custody is also the default). Most people get divorced because they fight too much and the main thing couples fight over is money. Infidelity is often a symptom of a failing marriage, rather than the cause. Many couples remain together or get back together after "infidelity". My own marriage surrived one short affair. I doubt it would survive my current hobby but I think her complaint would be about the money, not the activity per se (its not like she been making regular use my body; its been available).

 

Speaking of soul mates, I watched Crazy, Stupid, Love last night. I really enjoyed the film... except for the last 10 minutes where it becomes sappy and sentimental. I especially loved the scenes with the school teacher (Marisa Tomei). Hilarious film, except for the sappy bit at the end about soul mates.

 

I've been convinced a number of times in my life that I've found a soul mate -- and I'll admit it is a powerful instinct that captures one attention -- but years of experience has corrected that misperception.

 

My best wishes to anyone who thinks they've found love or that "real" love is out there to find, but please keep in mind that love is a 4 letter word.

[northerntantra 4671]

>Infidelity remains the one absolute condition for divorce in most jurisdictions, but we may see even that erode as courts come to grips with our ever increasing lifespans.

 

In Canada we have no fault divorces which means that there is no need for fault for a divorce and infidelity is really irrelevant to the whole thing.

 

To clarify my previous statement, "adultery" is one of the three conditions that are grounds for divorce under the Divorce Act. I said infidelity, but I meant adultery.

 

The other two conditions are:

 

- You and your spouse have been separated for one year

- Your spouse has treated you with intolerable mental or physical cruelty

 

So adultery is relevant when the other two conditions don't apply. It can get you a divorce in less than a year, and without having to formalize a separation. (Not a great idea, in my view, but some people feel agreaved enough to take advantage of it.)