Why have rates been stagnant for 25+ years?

[JoyfulC 132299]

When I first started working in Toronto in 1982, the going rate was $250/hr. Today, 27 years later, that's still what I'm charging. And I imagine that to be a mid-to-hi rate for this market.

 

There've been times when it's gone up or down by about $50/hr, but there seems to be some sort of glass ceiling that we just can't get past.

 

Why?

 

In that same time, costs of many other goods and services have skyrocketed. Some costs have perhaps come down, such as some technologies -- a cell phone, for example, costs almost nothing today compared to what it cost in 1989, but advances in solid state technologies and growth of cell networks have played roles in reducing costs. We've apparently just blown through a period of way out-of-control consumer spending, but it doesn't seem to be trickling down to us in the form of cost-of-living raises.

 

When we look at things like rent, gas, food, utilities, all these things have increased markedly, while our rates appear to be stagnating.

 

When I first started in the business, I remember reading articles about call girls living lives of extravagant luxury and jetsetting around, working only a couple months out of the year and living among the beautiful people the rest of the year. Those articles may have been grossly exaggerated, but I'll note that I was able to put myself through school and still comfortably maintain active social and political lives while working.

 

I fear that the only way today's SPs can make enough to earn even a slightly above average living is through volume -- and that doesn't seem very appealing.

 

What's the deal?

 

..c..

[buggernot 588]

Supply and demand may have something to do with it. The proliferation of the internet may have given the opportunity to more sp's to market themselves more easily. On a side note, at 250/hr you don't necessarily have to work volume to make a decent living. 5 clients per week would amount to an income over $50k per year. Not extravagant but certainly a wage that is more than livable.

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[antlerman 17064]

I feel there is also the situation of different levels of "service providers"

 

Look at those high priced private escorts you see and hear about...the ones who work only the top levelks of society the ones who work the circles of top polotictians......diplomats....and exclusive elite parties.

Thise ladies get unheard of amount of money and gifts due to the circles they work in.

 

Then there are the ladies who tour around that we often see for $500 to 1000 per hour hour.......they make a living due to the clientel they work with.....

 

then there is the range that most of us work in........$200 to $500........

 

 

please note that in no way am I judging a person on their looks....service or what they deserve........it is just certain level of clientel can afford different prices and location is another key part

then the last street walker level........

 

now I understand the cost of living index increases......but I do not feel it is tied to that as much as it is tied to what I stated above.........all depends on the circles and where you are working.

[F***s*t 145]

$250 an hour in 1982 is over $500 per hour now when you add in inflation. How busy were you then??

I do note many traveling SP's in the $3-400 range here in Winnipeg. For me that's high.

Then again look at the cost of cocaine / heroion back then too. It was a "rich mans" drug. Look at it now.

All the junkie's are hooked on that junk as it's cheap and plentiful.

[spud271 47779]

It's the same in Montreal, when I first saw an SP in 1990 there the rate for an hour was $180. Most agencies there still charge the same. A few now charge $200, but that is not much of an increase in 19 years Where I've seen the biggest difference in Montreal is with the Indy's, they are now more along the lines as the most Indy's in Canada and now charge between $250 and $300.

[E.D. man 691]

hey when yr clients are making 30 grand a yr they can't afford much more than 300 an hour and I have found less but you get what you pay for.

I have found 2 reg women now both named Kim and Kym.

One at 300 the other at 160.

But ight now economics have hit raise in rent zero raise in salary.

so I have to cut back with both.

Yr salary is as much as a lawyer cost at 300 an hour.

Some ladies even charge more so can't afford that.:cry::-?:neutral:

[buggernot 588]

I think the $30K/yr salary clients are the minority so it doesn't matter much what they can afford...

[JoyfulC 132299]

Supply and demand may have something to do with it. The proliferation of the internet may have given the opportunity to more sp's to market themselves more easily. On a side note, at 250/hr you don't necessarily have to work volume to make a decent living. 5 clients per week would amount to an income over $50k per year. Not extravagant but certainly a wage that is more than livable.

Posted via Mobile Device

 

Please bear in mind that's not a "wage" -- as in a bring home pay. It's income before expenses.

 

Add to that the risks and stigma, and it's not such a great deal by today's standards -- do you think?

 

..c..

[JoyfulC 132299]

I feel there is also the situation of different levels of "service providers"

 

Look at those high priced private escorts you see and hear about...the ones who work only the top levelks of society the ones who work the circles of top polotictians......diplomats....and exclusive elite parties.

Thise ladies get unheard of amount of money and gifts due to the circles they work in.

 

Unheard of? I think not -- compared with the people they associate with. If someone is making 7-8 figures a year, it's not unreasonable that their service providers are making 6 figures. After all, you can bet these guys aren't brown-bagging their lunches either.

 

Then there are the ladies who tour around that we often see for $500 to 1000 per hour hour.......they make a living due to the clientel they work with.....

 

And their costs and risks much higher than those of local SPs, as well. Add to that the impact of their problems -- a no-show on a $1000 customer is a serious matter.

 

There are only so many customers that can pay this rate in any Canadian market. And obviously they can't show up every two weeks. I'm not sure it's such easy money.

 

then there is the range that most of us work in........$200 to $500........

 

 

please note that in no way am I judging a person on their looks....service or what they deserve........it is just certain level of clientel can afford different prices and location is another key part

then the last street walker level........

 

now I understand the cost of living index increases......but I do not feel it is tied to that as much as it is tied to what I stated above.........all depends on the circles and where you are working.

 

But the point is that rates at various levels, except for the very top (where we really didn't have such outrageous incomes and costs until the past few years) have remained stagnant. How do you explain that?

 

..c..

[JethroBedrosian 104]

supply and demand. Always the answer to all pricing questions.

Supply is increased (look at the number of ads on various sites) and demand (middle aged men to over generalize) is decreasing.

[JoyfulC 132299]

$250 an hour in 1982 is over $500 per hour now when you add in inflation. How busy were you then??

I do note many traveling SP's in the $3-400 range here in Winnipeg. For me that's high.

Then again look at the cost of cocaine / heroion back then too. It was a "rich mans" drug. Look at it now.

All the junkie's are hooked on that junk as it's cheap and plentiful.

 

Actually, I recall us being pretty busy back then. At least as busy as at any time in the previous few years, and much more busy than in this past year or especially past few months.

 

I don't know much about drugs, so I'm sorry that I can't discuss that intelligently. But it does seem to me that there are some new formats for these drugs (crack as opposed to regular cocaine), and there are many who believe that drug pricing is regulated by those looking to manipulate populations. I'm not sure we can compare the illegal drug trade to prostitution. At least, it's not an argument that would have ever occurred to me!

 

..c..

[ulixestrojan 3757]

Joyful,

 

I just finished another book on demographics - yeah I am a nerd.

 

1982 was the coming of age for Gen X - small cohort in their prime for a much larger cohort of baby boomers - small supply, large demand.

 

Today, the NetGen - those 31 and less are a cohort bigger than the baby boom and they are now serving two smaller cohorts - Gen X and aging baby boom.

 

Perhaps supply and demand - one theory.

 

Perhaps - change in the commodity of sex, more available and often for free.

 

Two theories - still only worth 2 cents.

 

 

 

When I first started working in Toronto in 1982, the going rate was $250/hr. Today, 27 years later, that's still what I'm charging. And I imagine that to be a mid-to-hi rate for this market.

 

There've been times when it's gone up or down by about $50/hr, but there seems to be some sort of glass ceiling that we just can't get past.

 

Why?

 

In that same time, costs of many other goods and services have skyrocketed. Some costs have perhaps come down, such as some technologies -- a cell phone, for example, costs almost nothing today compared to what it cost in 1989, but advances in solid state technologies and growth of cell networks have played roles in reducing costs. We've apparently just blown through a period of way out-of-control consumer spending, but it doesn't seem to be trickling down to us in the form of cost-of-living raises.

 

When we look at things like rent, gas, food, utilities, all these things have increased markedly, while our rates appear to be stagnating.

 

When I first started in the business, I remember reading articles about call girls living lives of extravagant luxury and jetsetting around, working only a couple months out of the year and living among the beautiful people the rest of the year. Those articles may have been grossly exaggerated, but I'll note that I was able to put myself through school and still comfortably maintain active social and political lives while working.

 

I fear that the only way today's SPs can make enough to earn even a slightly above average living is through volume -- and that doesn't seem very appealing.

 

What's the deal?

 

..c..

[d*mm*y 887]

In 1991 when I was involved on the other side of the business the advertising costs were several hundred per week for the news paper ads, the cell phone bill was always in or around $1000 a month. I had Office space and business phone lines etc... most of the girls referred to themselves as $100 girls, times have changed. Now all you need is an internet connection a pay as you go cellphone with a $50 card every week and bingo, you can even get a pay as you go credit card now!! The price for entry is much lower and the information is far easier to get look at cerb alons and multiply it by the 3-4 other good resources out there.

 

Strangely enough many things have not gone up in price and many things have come down. A good suite is still $300, a loaf of bread is still .99 A decent pari of shoes is still $50 etc... Business lines are less than half price, cell phone minutes are 10% what they used to be. The internet has totaly changed the marketing dynamic and cost of advertsiing. I can still eat at McDonals (If I would ever want to) for $5.00.

[a******s.m*****e 187]

I think everything is supply and demand.

 

Same price as 15 years ago is at least 20% price decrease.

 

Basically, prices went down and that means more girls or less customers.

 

I think the onslaught of the Asians - at least here in Vancouver - has influenced the prices. Those girls come over for a few months and $100 per hour is a fortune for them. Even if their pimps or traffickers (mamasan, papasan) pocket a large percentage of it, they are still happy.

[kih 458]

I think everything is supply and demand.

 

Same price as 15 years ago is at least 20% price decrease.

 

Basically, prices went down and that means more girls or less customers.

 

I think the onslaught of the Asians - at least here in Vancouver - has influenced the prices. Those girls come over for a few months and $100 per hour is a fortune for them. Even if their pimps or traffickers (mamasan, papasan) pocket a large percentage of it, they are still happy.

 

Anita,

 

Thats sad. Hopefully the young ladies can see the light and turf their pimp or business partner whichever the case might be so that they can reap 100% of the reward for their efforts.

[JoyfulC 132299]

In 1991 when I was involved on the other side of the business the advertising costs were several hundred per week for the news paper ads, the cell phone bill was always in or around $1000 a month. I had Office space and business phone lines etc... most of the girls referred to themselves as $100 girls, times have changed.

 

Although the internet has brought us much more affordable and fully-valued advertising, I'm not sure I can agree with you on the costs of print advertising. And unfortunately, it still remains that only a fraction of the market uses the internet to find SPs.

 

I have been reading that print advertising is in big trouble lately -- whole newspapers are going under, for example -- but the last few years I have found that my print ad costs spiralled. The Sun, for example, loves to mug us -- and they're very creative about doing so. A couple years back, they arbitrarily decided that we needed a 4-line minimum. Never mind that I myself could get by on 2 lines, and was already paying for 3 because of their minimum. Then last Fall, they narrowed their classified ad column, tightening up lines by 6-8 characters, I believe. Same price. You just get less. And less. And less.

 

I only advertised in the Sun for one reason: I have a number of clients who cannot or will not go online to find me, and they don't want to keep any information lying around amongst their personal effects. In many cases, they have partners or kids who are much more computer literate than they are, and they're concerned they'll leave tell-tale trails, or they have a partner who doesn't respect their privacy. So I don't really need to do "Fire Sale" huge-type every day advertising -- I just need to be reasonably represented such that people can find me. The Sun offered me a deal -- 7 insertions within a 10-day period for $150. To me, that doesn't really seem like much of a deal, but... anyway, at some point last summer, I approached them and proposed that I could budget $200 a month, but I'd like to get more even coverage throughout the month, even if it's fewer insertions overall, rather than have my entire budget blown in one little clump of days, most of which I'm probably not going to be working anyway.

 

It seemed like a reasonable proposal to me, but they wouldn't even discuss it. Now... most businesses try to work with their customers to find solutions. But when it comes to us, the Sun isn't so much as interested in working together with us for both our benefits as they are being predatory and exploitative. I get the impression it's a morals issue with them. Screwing us over allows them to feel self-righteous. We have a very bad situation with respect to print advertising here in Ottawa.

 

However, I haven't bothered with them since November. Maybe they've changed their tune recently?

 

Now all you need is an internet connection a pay as you go cellphone with a $50 card every week and bingo, you can even get a pay as you go credit card now!! The price for entry is much lower and the information is far easier to get look at cerb alons and multiply it by the 3-4 other good resources out there.

 

Yup, and that's great for people who can and will use the internet for this purpose -- but not everyone does.

 

I know that it's hard to remember that the world doesn't end at the edges of our boards -- but really! It doesn't! Probably 90% of my customers never heard of CERB or any of the other boards. I try to send people here whenever the opportunity comes up, but it's just not for everybody.

 

Strangely enough many things have not gone up in price and many things have come down. A good suite is still $300, a loaf of bread is still .99 A decent pari of shoes is still $50 etc... Business lines are less than half price, cell phone minutes are 10% what they used to be. The internet has totaly changed the marketing dynamic and cost of advertsiing. I can still eat at McDonals (If I would ever want to) for $5.00.

 

Yes, and I think I addressed that previously -- there are some areas where costs have actually gone down, but there's always a good reason for that. As I noted before, with cell phones (and computers too), prices came down because demand went up AND new technologies made it more affordable. But the basic necessities of life -- housing, transportation, education, food, health care -- have all gone up significantly over the years since 1982. And all with pretty much the same supply & demand trends affecting them. So I really can't believe it's just a matter of supply & demand.

 

(Incidentally, sure you can eat for $5 at McDonalds -- but you wouldn't believe some of the meals my husband and I make at home for under $5 for both of us! I'm talking steak and potatoes, cheese blintzes with homemade fruit syrups, coq au vin, dim sum, sushi, stir fries, roast pork and much much more. McDonalds, while cheap, isn't really such a good deal. Any frugal person would avoid fast food like plague.)

 

..c..

[[email protected] 100]

Very well researched argument ! Bravo !

[[email protected] 100]

You are a very, very articulate person. Your argument was well-stated. If you carry yourself as well as you communicate, then you are a classy, classy woman. Bravo !

[a******s.m*****e 187]

Anita,

 

Thats sad. Hopefully the young ladies can see the light and turf their pimp or business partner whichever the case might be so that they can reap 100% of the reward for their efforts.

 

Yes, it is very sad. I am just hoping those girls are here because they want to:(

 

I had a customer years ago. He said he owns an MP and complained that the girls coming from China or Hong Kong are not pretty enough.

 

He didn't know he is telling it to the wrong person, because I am on the side of the girls and I instantly disliked him :(

[buggernot 588]

Perhaps there is a certain ceiling where people feel comfortable paying, so that is another factor in the rates being stagnant. As mentioned, many key commodities and expenses have risen over the years - as has salary - but disposable income has stayed the same. Housing values have gone up at an exponentially higher pct compared to income, so could be one of many factore associated as well...

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[spud271 47779]

...and well you should Anita...that's a horrible comment for a person to make!!!

 

Yes, it is very sad. I am just hoping those girls are here because they want to:(

 

I had a customer years ago. He said he owns an MP and complained that the girls coming from China or Hong Kong are not pretty enough.

 

He didn't know he is telling it to the wrong person, because I am on the side of the girls and I instantly disliked him :(

[Missy Mariposa 234]

Supply and demand as everyone else has said. Not to mention the economy. Before the recession a lot of women out here charged $300-350. It's down to 250-300 now.

[etasman2000 15994]

Anita,

 

Thats sad. Hopefully the young ladies can see the light and turf their pimp or business partner whichever the case might be so that they can reap 100% of the reward for their efforts.

 

If they can.

 

The pimp retains their passport, tells them wonderful things about our legal system and include the threat of deportation into the mix. Most are smuggled in or are on visitor visa. Add to the fact that with little English/French it makes it hard for them to leave or even get help.

[JoyfulC 132299]

Supply and demand as everyone else has said. Not to mention the economy. Before the recession a lot of women out here charged $300-350. It's down to 250-300 now.

 

Suppy and demand might explain short-term fluctuations in a market's pricing, but it doesn't explain why rates have been essentially stagnant for nearly three decades.

 

Look at housing, for example. Sometimes it's up; sometime's it's down. But as it trends up and down in the short-term, over the past three decades, it has steadily risen in most markets.

 

Another thing about today's rates is that, in many cases, we are supplying more value. In 1982, when I first worked in Toronto, almost no one did incall. There really weren't even that many massage parlours, as I recall -- something about the city cleaning up in the wake of the murder of that little boy, Emanuel Jacks. (Although no adult operation had anything to do with it.) We weren't even responsible for our transportation costs, as back then, it was customary to quote your rates by the hour, and add whatever amount for transportation -- usually $20-$50.

 

Today, however, in some areas (such as Ottawa) incall is expected. This places us at a higher risk, legally and physically, but it's more discreet and also more affordable for the customers, since they no longer have to get the room as they did back in the day, if they didn't want to receive us at their homes or offices. So our overhead costs now include rent, utilities, furnishings, linens, upkeep and maintenance, etc. (I even got yelled at by one guy in the winter of 2008 -- when we'd had so much snow that the city couldn't keep the streets clear -- for not providing a "dedicated parking spot" for my customers. This was a half hour customer, mind you, who takes a shower when he arrives and another when he leaves, and always goes MSOG. I like they guy -- he's a doll -- and I know he'd had a hell of a time finding parking that day. But I thought it was a bit over-the-top nonetheless.)

 

Some of us save a few $$ by working from our homes -- and I've done that -- but it's stressful because now your home and your family are subject to your work schedule, and if there's ever a problem? Not good. I was never tremendously comfortable with it.

 

I never considered foreign workers as part of the problem. It's been happening a long while, but last I looked, these girls were mostly available within their own ethnic communities. From what I read here, that's changed.

 

One thing that I find difficult to discuss because I don't want to come off sounding judgmental, but a huge problem I've noticed is that we have a lot of women in the business who are just looking for fun money, but have other income from family allowance or disability. And too often, because they're just looking to make a few quick dollars to go shopping or hit the casino, they undercut or will drop their rates quickly in a slow market.* This really complicates things for those of us who are trying to make a living. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be in the business at all -- but rather, I wish they would take us into consideration and behave ethically. And let's face it, the customer really doesn't distinguish between us and them. All the customer cares about (rightly so!) is whether she's pretty, charming, fun and satisfying.

 

And that's another thing: when many women come into this business, their biggest (sometimes only) source of information is the customer. You can't blame the customers for giving advice and information that's skewed towards the customer's interests. Many of us who are doing this for a living make the effort to conduct market research and reach out to one another. As you can imagine, we don't always see eye-to-eye, but I think we all do recognize our common interests.

 

(*I'm not suggesting that SPs should never lower their costs during a recession. But to lower rates in response to business being slow -- without seeing any reduction in our overhead first -- is suicidal. $50 isn't going to make that big a difference in many cases for the guy who has serious concerns over where the economy is headed and what damage has been done to his retirement savings, value of his home, job security, etc. It may bring a small flurry of samplers who will take advantage, but in the long run, business will still be slow and now you'll need even more appointments each month to cover your overhead. It just won't work.)

 

..c..

[buggernot 588]

One thing that I find difficult to discuss because I don't want to come off sounding judgmental, but a huge problem I've noticed is that we have a lot of women in the business who are just looking for fun money, but have other income from family allowance or disability. And too often, because they're just looking to make a few quick dollars to go shopping or hit the casino, they undercut or will drop their rates quickly in a slow market.* This really complicates things for those of us who are trying to make a living. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be in the business at all -- but rather, I wish they would take us into consideration and behave ethically. And let's face it, the customer really doesn't distinguish between us and them. All the customer cares about (rightly so!) is whether she's pretty, charming, fun and satisfying.

 

This isn't judgmental, more like hopeful for a perfect world so to speak. I am sure it would be nice to get rid of all the bad clients and maybe as well those drivers that don't let you merge into traffic while we're at it - but none of that is going to happen. There's plenty of girls out there that need to fuel a coke habit, have no respect for others or themselves, or do whatever they can to circumvent the law and ethics. Actually that applies to all people in general, not just some of the working girls. Sad but true, and it will never change.