Why have rates been stagnant for 25+ years?

[Guest i***k***]

Suppy and demand might explain short-term fluctuations in a market's pricing, but it doesn't explain why rates have been essentially stagnant for nearly three decades.

 

Your logic is flawed right here. It is always about supply and demand and it does not matter over what period of time. If there is a constant increase in supply and demand you'll see the effect you are referring to in this thread.

[F***s*t 145]

On EC Canada here in Winnipeg there are always 50-60 ladies with ads at any given time. The supply here is plentiful compared to other cities.

The demand is strong as well and the visiting SP's do charge $300 per hour or more. They are busy too as I've talked with a few of them.

At $300 per hour it doesn't take long to generate a six figure salary.

That's tax free as well.

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

I realize I've been reluctant to say much about the Asian escorts here in Vancouver. Liberal, middle-class fear of being racist, I suppose! But have a look at in Vancouver. Most of the erotic services ads there are from Asian women or their employers. Some of these girls work for lower-end massage parlors, but most of them, while seeming to be independents, are working in houses scattered all over the lower mainland. The owners run the risk of being charged with operating a bawdy house, though there are reports that they rotate the girls around between houses so that the neighbours won't know what's going on. One of my clients tells me that they often have five or six girls working in a house for a few weeks, and then they all move on while the house stands empty for a month or two, or is sublet to an ordinary family for a few months before the cycle starts over.

 

Men complain that nearly all of the Asians' ads are bait and switch. At the same time, many seem to think that the rates these girls quote are the going rate in the city, or should be. It's hard to compete with $50 blowjobs and two girls for $180/hour. On the other hand, men who've felt misled by this advertising seem to make a concerted effort to find older escorts (the Asian girls are rarely more than 25, and usually much younger) and Caucasians.

 

Some Vancouver feminists make a lot of noise about trafficked women, arguing that because of the prevalence of trafficking none of us should be in the sex trade. The escorts I've known are all concerned about trafficking; we don't want anyone to be forced into sex work. In fact, while there probably are trafficked women in the city--it's a port and a major entry point for airlines and autos--when the police tried to crack down on massage parlors a couple of years ago, they found no trafficked women working in them.

 

I think it's likely we'll see a major increase in the number of new escorts and the number of Asian brothels as we get closer to the Olympics. While the Olympics ought to be good for business, whether those of us who charge $250-300 per hour will see much of that increase is debatable. Some of the very high-end ladies may, but I'm skeptical about the rest of us.

[Guest f***2f***]

It's all about supply and demand....I think there are plenty offering and therefore it's competitive...Air Canada will always have a competitive fare offered on a route where other carriers are offering the same service at a lower rate...when they are the only game in town they charge whatever they like...eg Halifax to Happy Valley Goose Bay Labrador is over $1K fare!!

I notice that the Montreal rates are less than in Ottawa.....I think that's because there is a lot of competition there and not as much here.

[JoyfulC 132299]

Your logic is flawed right here. It is always about supply and demand and it does not matter over what period of time. If there is a constant increase in supply and demand you'll see the effect you are referring to in this thread.

 

That sounds like the kind of thinking that got us into our current economic crisis. ;)

 

Supply and demand play a role -- but there are other factors.

 

..c..

[Guest i***k***]

That sounds like the kind of thinking that got us into our current economic crisis. ;)

 

Supply and demand play a role -- but there are other factors.

 

..c..

 

If you don't like the answers why ask the question in the first place? I read a number of your replies in this thread and it seems to be an on going theme...

[rickoshadows 937]

It always comes down to supply and demand. However the concepts of supply and demand isn't alwasy as simple as amount of suppliers competing for finite amount of money by providing the lowest price. Value, or percieved value comes into play as well.

 

In times when money gets a little tighter, or buyers percieve that their income is or will be under pressure, value for money becomes more important than the lowest price. In my experience, there has been little correlation of service to price between $160 to $400. I have had both oustanding and forgetable sessions at both ends of the above price scale. Personalities and other factors play a larger role. Therefore I am more likely to repeat with a known quantity even at a higher price, or with someone who has a good reputation for consistent above average service. I am far less likely to TOFTT with a new face coming in at any amount than I would have been a couple of years ago.

 

At times like this, regulars are more valuable to a provider, therefore they tend to reap the rewards of their continued patronage. (unfortunately, as a newcomer to the Ottawa area, I am not a regular). Providers who do not have enough regulars to maintain their lifestyle tend to offer specials to attract them.

 

Underlying all this, while incomes have risen, so has the cost of living. My "fun money" has remained remarkably consistent over the years, so I continue to seek providers in my price range, only I am less likely to search out a new gem.

[a******s.m*****e 187]

In think everybody can set the price as high as she wants to in the hope that she will receive it.

 

I am not sure if you are trying to find out the cause just for the sake of a discussion, or that you are unhappy with the average price girls (and you) can charge?

 

If the latter is the case I would suggest a girl should try to get into a "higher bracket" by trying to accommodate more affluent people.

We all have seen the $5000 girl is not much prettier than the average escort, but she does things differently, like getting involved with a high end agencies, being available for travel, having a wardrobe for every occasion rich people are involved in, like golfing or gala dinners.... And of course she should always be impeccably groomed and dressed, be very discreet and have good manners, etc.

 

In this business you determine your price. I have set mine at a level where I can work comfortably without having to be perfect, but if I was younger and wanted to make big money I would probably do what I suggested.

 

If for example a girl gives a guy a BJ for a beer, he will gladly take it, and the girl just put herself in the "one beer" bracket. The opposite is also true.

 

I am not sure if this makes sense or if it is helpful, just my 2 cents.

 

ps. this is not directed at Joyful, I don't know her and haven't seen her picture, this is meant as an advise in general for girls who are unhappy with the money they make. :)

[YoungStud 468]

A beer for a BJ. Now you're making me nostalgic for my high school days. ;-)

[buggernot 588]

I notice that the Montreal rates are less than in Ottawa.....I think that's because there is a lot of competition there and not as much here.

 

Some of the girls I've seen in Ottawa were from Montreal, and told me that they came here because of that. I think an exact quote I heard from more than one girl to describe it was that Montreal is, "fucking crazy"...

[a******s.m*****e 187]

A beer for a BJ. Now you're making me nostalgic for my high school days. ;-)

 

I should have known that this is what guys will get out of the whole thing :)

[YoungStud 468]

Sorry, I just can't resist a cheap joke when the opportunity presents itself. Seriously, I quite sympathetic to the fact we're talking about how people make a living. I'm usually a client in the $200 - $300 range, sometimes a fair bit more for the right person and services.

[JoyfulC 132299]

If you don't like the answers why ask the question in the first place? I read a number of your replies in this thread and it seems to be an on going theme...

 

Sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention. Supply & demand is always the answer given, but I've been in the business well over three decades, and I'm sorry, but while I accept that for fluctuations within, say, a ten year period, I don't see it as a legit reason for the stagnation of our rates over the space of decades.

 

Nor am I complaining. Obviously I'm still happy with what I'm making doing this, or I wouldn't bother with it. But that said, I remember when our earnings had a lot more buying power. People like to talk about the correlation between rates and class -- it seems to me that if our rates have stagnated, and the buying power of our earnings has gone down, well... what does that say about us? About the status of our profession? Could it be that we're running ourselves into the ground?

 

I think we're in for a tough economy for at least another 2-5 years -- and likely our rates will either go up (if inflation rules the day) or go down (if deflation rules) -- but I think that figuring out what went wrong over the past 30 years or so might help those to come after us.

 

And I know, many SPs could care less about that. Please forgive me if I do. You don't need to bother yourself with such discussions if they make you uncomfortable, you know.

 

..c..

[a******s.m*****e 187]

Sorry, I just can't resist a cheap joke when the opportunity presents itself.

 

It's OK, it was funny :)

[JoyfulC 132299]

I thought of a way to try to explain what I'm trying to say in a way that perhaps won't make some people feel so threatened.

 

Look at chicken wings. When I was little, my grandpa was a butcher. He regularly cut the wings off and tossed them out. My husband's mom was a widow with 8 kids to raise. Her butcher used to package up the wings for her because he knew she could and would do something with them. But in general, they were thought to be a worthless part of the chicken when I was growing up.

 

But then someone -- possibly a bar owner in Buffulo, NY -- got the great idea to serve spicy roasted chicken wings as appetizers. Buffulo wings were born, and the price of chicken wings went from close to zero to as expensive as chicken breast overnight. Recipes proliferated -- honey garlic wings, mahogany wings, cajun wings. The status of this piece of the chicken carcass skyrocketed in a very short time -- almost as though a quantum leap.

 

Now, yes, there was more demand for them, and technically, that's why the price went up (as opposed to down, since you need to grow a whole chicken to get a couple wings) -- but the reason that the demand went up is the essential factor here. Chicken wings went from being a food that poor widows found a way to use to a trendy sports bar food.

 

We've undergone a trend in the other direction. Considering the buying power of $250 in 1982 and in 2009, it's fair to say that our social status has decreased over the past several decades.

 

But why? What factor was behind that? That's what I'm interested in.

 

..c..

(oh, and ps. no, this is not about my business. You'll note I don't advertise here or take advantage of any of the free promotion tools here. I'm here to participate, to discuss issues I'm interested in, and to raise concerns or ideas I have. That's all.)

[a******s.m*****e 187]

 

But why? What factor was behind that? That's what I'm interested in.

 

How about the AIDS-scare that started in the mid 80's? It could have scared people off.

 

But if you ask me, the worse the economy the more people need to have fun and distraction.

 

Not a very good example, but the poorest neighbourhoods have the most streetwalkers and most porno movie theaters.

[Guest f***2f***]

It's still about what the market will bear though which is part of the same supply and demand theory. In Ottawa you have a fairly stable work force...the Government...recessions come and go and for the most part things stay recession proof in this town. I think from what I hear from others that the cost of sps has gone up in this town. We saw that last year with the big controversy over Mia's (of Honeyzworld) rates going up...twice in a month!! She was charging what the market was bearing and suffering no loss of business as a result...apparently.

Perhaps in a market like Montreal that would not have worked so well as the competition is a bit stiffer (so to speak).:mrgreen:

[JoyfulC 132299]

Although the conventional wisdom answer is "supply & demand," I have trouble believing that since I've worked through the past 30 years (and more!) and while it may wobble back and forth seasonally or market to market or year to year, supply and demand have pretty much remained in balance through the decades.

 

But what the market will bear? That is affected by more than just supply and demand.

 

In another thread, we discussed whether a "pay what you think is fair" pricing scheme would work for our business, and the conclusion was that it wouldn't because, with exceptions, too many men would simply refuse to be fair to women. Men, in general, could not be trusted to enter into such an arrangement in good faith, but would rather be looking for a way to take advantage of the terms at the SP's expense.

 

I'm wondering if that doesn't have something to do with why our rates have stagnated, despite no significant enduring change in either supply or demand, over the course of decades. Where will this go from here? Already, the buying power of an hour at the median rate has plummeted -- a fact no one seems to dispute. And obviously, the lure of making good money is a motivating factor for women entering the business.

 

To borrow a phrase so common in the news these days, "however will we retain good talent if we don't reward them properly???" :)

 

..c..

[d*mm*y 887]

Incomes have not kept pace with many expenses. Real estate is a prime example, housing prices have gone up 10X the average home in 1971 was 27,000 now in 2008 it was 281K (Ottawa prices of course). If most people look at the average compensation for there job in 1971 and compare it to today they will see that there income has not gone up 10x. Just have a look at minimum wage in Ontario, it was $1.65 in 1971 and today it is $8.75 I think this is a good indicator of the average wage increase over the past 40 years and this indicates an average increase of 5x. So while many expenses have increased 10x the incomes have increased 5x and left much less disposable income. Disposable income = luxuries and pampering.

 

As we expand our boarders and increase our import and export we also create a more even playing field for wages. The global economy is not finished with us yet.

 

I had a co-worker that I became friends with when I was in High-tech, we had come from eastern Europe to build a better life and to start a family with his wife also from eastern Europe. We was a network administrator and very talented. In Eastern Europe he was paid approximately $1000/month. For the same job he got $10,000/ month here. In the 2005 he was laid off and we lost touch, I recently met a mutual friend who told me that his wife and children are doing great and that he is now commuting to Hong Kong for work!!! For the same job he is now paid $50,000k/month, and after expenses of living and commuting is left with about $20k/month for savings. The same is true of SP's globally, Canadian SP's have historically made very good income relative to many global economies. I can take $4000 and travel to an exotic location and have 20 ladies anyway I want, or I can have 12-15 basic appointments here in Ottawa? Interesting dilemma, there are many location that advertise a GF for 24 hours for $150US, x 14 days is a hell of a vacation!

 

There are so many factors involved in supply and demand that the answer seems to be far to simple, but it is the street lingo for all these economic factors that ultimately give us our extra cash for spending and add the easy access (low cost phones free email and internet advertising) for entry and more ladies with access to clients you get less money for more ladies being available.

 

I would expect that anyone that felt differently would simple state any other factors that could be contributing to the price that SP's can charge? I do not think that is a collective of clients brain washing SP's to charge less, the way clients do that is by choosing not to take the service if they feel the rate is too high (the demand), they can only do that if they are given options (the supply). History is full examples of times when suppliers have tampered with prices and through collusion or monopolies have temporarily raised prices but ultimately it boils down to supply and demand.

JC to simply say that is not right and not to propose another possibility is not right, if you feel we are missing a piece of the puzzle and that other factors at play say what?s on your mind.

[JoyfulC 132299]

Dummpy, I'm not saying that our rates "haven't kept pace with expenses" -- I'm saying that they froze in time. What other job or profession in North America has experienced no appreciable movement since 1982?

 

I don't think there is any. So we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I half wonder if discussion of rates don't make some nervous. I'm not suggesting that our rates should dramatically increase overnight -- nor am I even suggesting that there wasn't a good reason for the stagnation. Since I don't know why it happened, I can't say that it was a bad thing overall, eh? Perhaps -- as with print magazines/newspapers and local TV -- we're being slowly phased out as a viable industry.

 

For example, on a smaller scale, when I was younger, we used to do something called "freelancing" -- this was an upscale version of streetwalking. Basically, we got dressed up attractively (but modestly), went out to hotel lounges, ordered virgin drinks, and managed to make dates with guests staying in their rooms. It was very common back in the 70s -- but I doubt you see much of that now. Why? Well, for one thing, in the 70s, a single woman sitting in a hotel lounge could only mean one thing! A guy could wink at her, buy her a drink, mutter his room number as he sauntered by without having harassment charges brought against him. But these days, it could just mean she's there on business and wanted a drink. Further, the hotels are less eager to tolerate prostitution pick-ups in their lounges (even if discreetly) now that they have more female business travelers. Back when the lounges were mostly filled with single men, couples and us, it was no big deal. But in this case, it wasn't supply and demand that changed -- but rather a social dynamic. And overall, although it deep-sixed freelancing, it was a change for the better.

 

You can't have it both ways. On the one hand, you point out that wages in other jobs haven't increased as much as expenses -- but are you looking at us as a wage or an expense then? We can be defined as both. And still, our rates have been stagnant for decades, while the rest of the world has moved on -- evenly or unevenly, but they've at least moved. We haven't.

 

Further, that argument isn't cogent considering the consumer frenzy we've been through in recent years. If people had less disposable income left over after meeting their basic costs of living, then how exactly did this whole phenomenon happen? (..yeah, I know -- CREDIT! ;) ) North Americans have been spending on luxury, recreation and entertainment at unprecedented levels in recent years -- and they continue to spend on us -- but our rates remain stagnant. (I won't say "low" because that's a subjective term. Some might call them "high" -- all we know for sure is that they're stagnant.)

 

This suggests to me that something else is going on, such as (and these are just suggestions -- I honestly don't know, as much as I'd love to):

 

-- We're collectively mismanaging our business.

 

-- Our perceived value to consumers has sharply decreased.

 

-- The viability of our business is fading; we're going extinct either through inevitability or through lack of vision.

 

I mean, if we take the emotional factor out of this -- that which seems to make us defensive -- and look at other industries that are not finding purchase in new markets -- such as local TV and print media -- what would you say happened to them? Were they simply overwhelmed by new alternatives they couldn't compete with? They didn't die off overnight. Or did they fail along the way to remain competitive, and now they can't possibly catch up? Were they so certain that it couldn't happen to them, and that their flagging profits were just a sign of the times, that it caught them unawares?

 

I would like to learn the answers -- after all, this is my life's work. Can you blame me for being curious? I don't think that gaining any insight will change things much for any of us here today, but who knows? I'm still interested.

 

..c..

[simon_templar 161]

Joy:

 

I'm not sure if this answers your question or not, but in reviewing the various replies to your thread the concept of competition has been raised. Perhaps the followiing deserves some discussion.

Is is possible that the rate of compensation hasn't dramatically changed in over 3 decades due to a substantial influx of other "alternative venues"?

 

For example:

1. lap dances in strip clubs. I don't believe that the "fuller service" dance was available 15-30 years ago.

2. the widespread availability and subsequent lower costs of pornographic material on video and dvd.

3 the internet

 

Obviously, I'm not trying to suggest that any of the above possibilites replaces the experience of being with a companion! But they may offer a suitable alternative dependent upon time, availability and cost.

 

In terms of available options to the discriminating consumer, then, the competitive value may not lie in the rates between different SP's but rather between the cost of visiting their favourite companion or in participating in one of the more inexpensive alternatives listed above. (I do appreciate that enjoying the pleasant company of a dancer can be expensive, but it can also end up costing less than the price of a hotel room, an SP's fee and a possible gratuity).

In essence, I believe that competition may be a mitigating factor. Not in the sense of competing with another SP, but in competing with other venues.

 

Is it possible, then, that the increase in these other venues may have placed a cap (artificial or otherwise) on the value that the market will bear as regards the rate of compensation?

 

If I have misunderstood your question or if none of the points warrant further discussion, my apologies. Just write it up to a little 'Johnny Walker wisdom'............and thanks for listening.

[misterdynomite30 174]

Supply and demand may have something to do with it. The proliferation of the internet may have given the opportunity to more sp's to market themselves more easily.

 

I agree with this as well as the internet giving us way more options to choose. That would be the other thing worthy of mention. The market isn't exactly flooded, but the choices of SP's are no longer restricted to your 2 city block radius anymore.

 

Before the net, i only knew 1 escort at a time and it was more like "500 an hour.. take it or leave it... and you may as well take it because there's no one else around!" Even if they had a bad attitude, it was either get with them or no one at all. Back then i put up with the B.S. because the pickin's were slim.

 

Now (thank God) you can shop around and there are way more to choose from. If one doesn't suit your needs... another can be found the same night with a more competitive price and sometimes a better attitude. Plus, after a while, you start to realize that "expensive" ($500 +) doesn't always mean "better" (5/5 rating)

 

i learned that lesson many times in the pre-internet days.

[buggernot 588]

Another theory that may hold water is demographic shift. The baby boomers have become progressively older and perhaps less likely to participate, the subsequent generations are a smaller base and more likely to be educated in what they can get and for how much. Or not, that'll probably require a doctoral thesis to find out...

 

However, there was also mention in another recent thread about rates in the 90's and how they were less than what they are now. As I interpreted, the same type of girls that charge $200-220/hr now were asking $120-140 back then. That seems to be right on target for an appropriate inflation boost over say, 15 years?

[d*mm*y 887]

I was looking back to the eighties and I never spent more than $140 and usually around $60-80, through the nineties I spent my first 200's. Now I consider it a lucky day at $200. So for my experience prices have gone up. I think that careers change over time as well, a lady in her 20's looking hot will be able to consistently ask for more than someone who is not. There are many ladies around asking $400 these days and they are the hot 20 somethings with great personalities and positive attitudes.

 

Providers are free to ask what they want, and clients are able to choose what they believe is the best value for them. If a provider believes that their service should be $1000 than that is what they can ask. I know that in the 80's if I had met a lady that was asking $250 it would have been cost prohibitive for me for sure, the better ladies were $140-160. At least in Ottawa. In 91 I know for absolute certainty that the prices were 100 for a half and 160 for an hour, the better girls did not do halves.

[JoyfulC 132299]

Simon_Templar and Misterdynomite30, yes, I seem to also recall that pre-internet, another wave that hit and offered a major alternative to traditional services was the phone sex phenomenon. So perhaps there's something to be said for new technologies offering cheaper alternatives that have watered down the value (if not the demand) for our services.

 

Buggernot, with respect to Boomers being less likely to participate. I am one myself, and I prefer to work with others of my generation. I haven't noticed much of a slowdown. If anything solutions such as Viagra have increased their participation, and the enhanced financial stability of senior clients makes them a better bet, even during downturns. I will note, though, that in recent years, it seems that there is an unprecedented amount of interest from younger customers (20s and even teens) who have never been married. Traditionally, men in this age range have shunned professionals, preferring the challenge of attracting women on their merits and not their wallets. Traditionally, prostitution was the solution of men who weren't really free to pursue casual relationships, and preferred the proscribed nature of encounters with us. (You know the old saying, they pay us to go away?) I chalk up the interest from the young 'uns to the rampant consumerism and too-easy credit of this past decade -- but hopefully those conditions (which haven't been very good for us!) will wind down, and young men will go back to chasing tail the old-fashioned way.

 

Dummpy, could it be that you've simply journeyed through and sampled various rate strata, and not the other way around? Yes, some girls do come in low and hop up a level or two as they gain confidence or realize they can do better. But it's not as though those levels didn't exist all along. Last summer, in the Ottawa section, someone put out a notice of a very attractive woman giving a great service for $30. Let's hope, for her sake, that she's figured out that she can do better. But if she's charging $250/hr today, then that doesn't mean that rates went from $30 to $250 in 9 months. (I still think putting together some stats on rates for advertisers here is a good idea -- you say you're a paper pusher. Wanna help? ;) )

 

As a business, we have gone through some substantial technological and sociological changes over the past thirty or so years. But too, I also know that our business is different from many in that many SPs tend to be young and/or only in the business briefly; we tend to come to the business with all the same stigma-based preconceptions that anyone else in society has (I was certainly no different); it's easier to start right off as an independent these days, which -- while it spares many from being exploited -- also prevents many from learning from the experience of those who've been around longer; often a new independent's most plentiful source of information comes from the customers and she is a bit alienated from other SPs; and many operators lack any solid business training or background. I am inclined to think that, despite whatever else might have affected our business, that collectively we have managed ourselves poorly, for the reasons above. This is why the rest of the world is marching on, and we're being left behind.

 

I'm not sure we can do much about it, though. As some of you may have noticed, we SPs tend to be a hard-headed bunch. ;) And many are in it only to surf a little quick cash, but when it starts feeling like work, they're gone. (...not that I'm suggesting there's anything wrong with that -- I suspect this is also what keeps the business fresh -- but back in the day, most such girls worked for agencies and never made it to the independent stage where they'd get involved in setting their own pricing.) I dunno! Maybe we could put together an MBA for SPs or something.

 

Demand is still healthy, and we still seem able to attract a healthy supply at the moment -- although I suspect that's because, for the moment, we still have a reputation for being a good paying business. Few of the women I know today who've been in the business any length of time cite the money as the reason they stay in the business -- and most of the women I know who've left the business over the past ten years or so have cited disappointment with earnings as a reason for leaving. What happens when we lose the lure of good money? (Which, frankly, we haven't so far only because of an enduring stigma.) In the future, as Dummpy suggests, perhaps the best service will be had in "exotic locations" (...a euphemism for third world country?) where "luxury service" can be purchased for dirt cheap rates because the service providers live in an entirely different reality than their customers.

 

The reason I think this is important now is because (call me a doomsayer), I think our whole economy might possibly reset itself here over the next five years or so. If that happens (and in general, I think it would be a good thing), it could give our business a second chance. I suspect that rates will start out lower -- and our customer's disposable funds will probably also be lower -- but hopefully all our costs of living will also be lower, AND we'll have the opportunity to manage ourselves better from that point forward. It's a possibility!

 

..c..