Against Sexual Exploitation

[A***** A***** 510]

The Clap (Collective des luttes pour l'abolition de la prostitution) (does anyone else think it's funny that a group who is anti prostitution picked a name whose acronym is slang for gonorrhea?)

 

I don't know if they chose their name properly, that's for sure. And yes, it's funny in a sad way, as in their ignorance comes into play :lol:

[thetiminator 100]

It could be that in French 'the clap' doesn't have the same meaning. I don't know, I'm not French.

 

Maybe if I'm doing anything, I might show up. Support my ladies. Maybe some post-meeting celebrations.

 

I can for sure hold my own if I'm attacked. Plus, being Anglo, I won't know what's being said.

[thetiminator 100]

Verbally attacked, not physically.

 

I can for sure hold my own if I'm attacked. Plus, being Anglo, I won't know what's being said.

[o*****j***e 136]

I will try my best to go their on Thursday. I must support my ladies. I'm sure a lot of members here would love to go and show their support for the lovely ladies in this profession, but unfortunately, many have SO's and would have a difficult time to attend. I hope to see you there Erin.

[Stormzzz 233]

It doesn't matter how hard they try, no one has succeeded to eradicate to oldest job on earth! From what I could read, it seems like it's against sexual exploitation where woman and young kids are forced to become prostitutes against their will. It's doesn't sound like a rally to get rid of wonderful SP's of our region, who does what they do to please us and enjoy doing it!

 

That's only my 2 cents. :-D

[smitty_McFlung 290]

To me, an independant or anyone working for an agency is not exploited...I don't understand these groups who think people in the trade are being exploited...some small cases maybe, but you definately can't paint a broad stroke onto this industry. These groups should be trying to legalise the sex trade, Nevada is a good example on how it can work. if they want safety for women and men in the trade, push to bring it out into the open!

[A***** A***** 510]

If I was there, I would most definately attend. I choose to work in the sextrade, and that doesn't mean I am exploited at all. Hell who knows, maybe a move to Ottawa is in order LOL

[canuckhooker 19203]

Good luck with this, you are going to need it. I would go but I would probably end up in jail.

 

I hate to say it but you may be "pissing into the wind" with this group. I googled the organization and the speakers and you are going against some "professional" academics who make their living with these theories. Some of the stuff they are against such as child pornography or exploitation, or human trafficking are admirable causes and basically motherhood causes. However as far as I can see it is all tied into a marxist/socialist or radical feminist agenda. Not that I am against equal rights or am by any means a misogynist but some of the radical feminist ideas are absolute clap-trap. The late Andrea Dworkin's theories spring to mind.

 

Anyway, I doubt it will be anything more than a hyper-intellectual circle jerk, and in my experience they will not be interested in opposing views. Be prepared to be patronized and shouted down. The good news is that these people rarely have any real influence on real life policies and laws. The law-makers are surprisingly intelligent enough to realize that it is nothing more than some extreme left-wing intellectual masturbation.

 

EDIT- Lest I offend any academics or intellectuals my rant above was about that group and not academics in general. These people are not interested in debate, and will not tolerate opposing views. They are at the extreme end of the spectrum.

[a******s.m*****e 187]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

Just because we are independent and chose this type of work it doesn't mean everybody did.

 

I have a hard time believing that a teenager running away from an abusive home ends up in the hands of pimps and drug dealers because she wants to. And I am wondering if the hundreds of Asian girls on CL are working as prostitutes because they want to.

Just read the ads. Daily new girls from those countries who don't even speak the language and someone else is placing the ads for them.

 

Well, it is possible that girls in Asia are standing in line to be able to come to Canada to make money as prostitutes, but what if they are not? What if they are being lured here in the hope of some other type of work?

 

I think BECAUSE we are strong and independent women, we have the obligation to look out for those who can't speak up for themselves. If there is a problem, we should not help to sweep it under the rug.

 

Having said that, I think it is an absolute nonsense to say that everybody in the sex industry is exploited. The majority is in this because they want to, whether to make good money or because they enjoy what they do.

[VedaSloan 119179]

I think what bothers me most is that they do this under the guise of feminism. If you care so much about equality and the rights of women, you should be helping to decriminalize it, not pushing for the expansion of criminalization.

 

I don't care if they patronize me, I don't care if they talk down to me, I know they will, I've heard it before. I will still stand my ground, and speak out for those of us who aren't exploited, for those of us who chose this profession willingly, for those of us who love this job and for everyone who has been hurt by the laws that are supposed to protect us.

 

In terms of Andrea Dworkin, I actually quoted her recently in my lecture at Ottawa U. In her book, Intercourse, she actually calls for the abolition of intercourse, and women who claim to enjoy that act are labeled "collaborator, more base in their collaboration than other collaborators have ever been: experiencing pleasure in their own inferiority; calling intercourse freedom.'

 

The fact that these people will tell me that I have been brainwashed by the patriarchy makes me sick. I haven't been brainwashed by anyone. I am an adult, able to make her own choices. I choose to rent my body. Just as I would choose to get an abortion, if I became pregnant. Which brings to mind another handy quote: If you can't trust a woman with a choice, how can you trust her with a baby?

[canuckhooker 19203]

Sorry if I didn't sound sympathetic to your points. I am very aware of the problems with exploitation around the world. And I realize that they are problems that need to be addressed. But the arguments have to be reasonable and propose a reasonable and effective solution.

 

My points were based on having read and quickly researched what the authors have published. I will admit my French is not 100% but basically these people are on the radical end of the spectrum when it comes to feminism and they are anti-globalism as well. According to some of them, it is the evils of the G8 and G20 that are exploiting people for sex. They think that making prostitution illegal will be a solution to the problems. I on the other hand, would suggest it is a cause of many of the problems. Either way, from what I read in what Erin posted and what these "experts" have published, I seriously doubt that it will be a forum for informed debate.

[A***** A***** 510]

Is there an English version of what they are talking about?

[canuckhooker 19203]

Is there an English version of what they are talking about?

 

I couldn't find much about them or their papers in English, but I only researched a little. Some of their papers are in English. Just google the 4 speakers/authors names and you will get some stuff.

[canuckhooker 19203]

Thanks for the translation, I know I understood what was said, but couldn't write it in coherent English. Essentially a bunch of self-proclaimed "experts" espousing their questionable academic research.

[VedaSloan 119179]

While I certainly have nothing against the eradication of human trafficking, I would like a clearer explanation as to what constitutes child pornography. Going by the definition of the law, I don't like what I see.

 

The Canadian Child Porn law, passed in June 1996, is an extension of the US child porn bills:

 

1. The Child Sexual Abuse and Pornography Act (1986) and

2. The Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act (1988 ).

 

It was under the former US laws that such artists such as Jock Sturges, Robert Mapplethorpe, and Alice Sims were charged and people became afraid to take nude photos of children, adolescents, and late teens.

 

The Child Porn Bill in Canada (163.1 of the Criminal Code) considers adolescents and young adults as "children", makes it illegal to possess, produce, sell, or distribute sexually explicit images of a person who is, or is depicted as being under the age of eighteen in films, magazines, videos and computer generated images. It also makes illegal written materials that "advocate" having sex with a person under the age of eighteen.

 

Matthew McGowan was arrested for making a sexually explicit safe sex video with two of his friends. One of the boys in the video was fourteen. All three boys were above the age of consent for sex, which is fourteen. They made the video of their own free will and they had safe sex. The charge was no doubt premised on a ruling that casual gay encounters are "degrading and without human dimension." (Judge Hayes ruling under the Butler framework).

 

Just, on the whole, IMHO, we are too quick to use the word "abuse" when referring to childhood sexual experiences. And if you can consent to sex at fourteen, why, when money is involved, does it now become illegal to sleep with anyone aged 14-17 (who the Child Porn Bill classifies as children)?

[Annessa 22743]

Just, on the whole, IMHO, we are too quick to use the word "abuse" when referring to childhood sexual experiences. And if you can consent to sex at fourteen, why, when money is involved, does it now become illegal to sleep with anyone aged 14-17 (who the Child Porn Bill classifies as children)?

 

this is a tough call for me because frankly I'd really like to show up and show these so-called experts that all of us have a choice in what we do and are not always victims of society or terrible upbringing....I have a degree, and still dabble in my field when I feel my beckoning call, dont have an addiction...maybe a child to support however. but no one is holding a gun to my head.

 

however the above quote by erin (who by the way i want to go to this thing with you with!! msg me) identifying why the brou-ha-ha (as the french say, meaning "nonesense") over consenting early-teens being labelled as victims......this is a very touchy subject....some of us lose our virginitys at 12....some not until age 25....who do you think has more responsibility over their actions and knows why they are doing what they are doing when thay are doing it?

 

I support the idea of exploiting children and perhaps some illegal imigrants

(by the way...I have to say the coment about the asian girls on CL seeming forced etc....know your facts before you assume...there are every sort of race out there that turns a man on....the russians, asians and whoever else have the sexy heavy accents...whether they're playing it up for the client and writing in broken english on their decsciption doesn't always mean they are naiive...in fact I know far too many girls that do this on purpose)

 

..howerver i would like to attend this to make sure that the child and imigrant exploitation and what we do is not melted into the same pot....this may turn into a scream-fest...but hopefully the right awareness is generated because of it...and all parties listen and respect all opinions. I for one am willing to listen.....but will have a hard time keeping my mouth shut should any of us be misrepresented

 

ps...I'm fluently bilingual ;-)

 

xo Annessa

[Annessa 22743]

I support the idea of exploiting children and perhaps some illegal imigrants

 

OMG sorry!...meant to say "I support the ides of NOT exploiting children/illegal imgrants"

 

 

(*inserts foot in mouth*)

[m**k 153]

Annessa, if you go there and get all tense and frustrated and want someone to help release all that anger...I'm your man :) ...you are absolutely gorgeous

 

I still think that this little shindig is not really about the adult industry...but sure, the slant is likely on the feminism-left side of the political spectrum and deep down the CLAP is probably for the eradication of men in general. They will likely link these problems to the existance of the sex trade in general and point a finger at the customers as responsible for creating the demand...and oh yes...that the media is partly responsible for all that sex on TV and on the net. I would hope that there is an agreement on some basic principles (the main theme of the speak)...why can't we just get along already!

[a******s.m*****e 187]

 

Matthew McGowan was arrested for making a sexually explicit safe sex video with two of his friends. One of the boys in the video was fourteen. All three boys were above the age of consent for sex, which is fourteen. They made the video of their own free will and they had safe sex. The charge was no doubt premised on a ruling that casual gay encounters are "degrading and without human dimension." (Judge Hayes ruling under the Butler framework).

 

Just, on the whole, IMHO, we are too quick to use the word "abuse" when referring to childhood sexual experiences. And if you can consent to sex at fourteen, why, when money is involved, does it now become illegal to sleep with anyone aged 14-17 (who the Child Porn Bill classifies as children)?

 

I think the law is there to prevent some religious fanatic from reporting 14 year old high school sweethearts if they are caught having sex, and to make sure if a 14 year old girl gets pregnant she can get married without being prosecuted.

 

But call me old fashioned. If I had a 14 year old son and someone made a porn movie with him I would cut his &*%^&$ off, I don't care if he consented or not. A 14 year old might be mature sexually, but mentally is still a child and can be very easily influenced.

 

I would not want my child to learn how to be a porn star before he finishes school and decides on a carrier. When he is old enough he can do porn movies if this is what he wants to do, but not at fourteen.

[a******s.m*****e 187]

There is a beautiful, but sinister and haunting movie made in the Czech Republic about young male prostitutes and pornography. It is fact-based and some of the actors are actual young male prostitutes in Prague.

 

It is called "Mandragora", made in 1997. I would suggest to everybody to watch it.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mandragora-Miroslav-Caslavka/dp/6305777837/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

I have rented it, but it is available for free on the internet if you know where to look ;)

 

Once you've watched it I am absolutely sure you won't be able to trivialize the damages child prostitution and exploitation can do to young people.

[Annessa 22743]

Annessa, if you go there and get all tense and frustrated and want someone to help release all that anger...I'm your man :) ...you are absolutely gorgeous

 

Ack! I slept all day by accident so I didnt make it, LOL

totally frustrated tho more because I was interested in going.......can't take my frustrated self on you tonight, monk, as I'm fully booked, but maybe this weekend? hehehe

 

On a more serious note did anyone go? I'm interested to hear what the tone of this gathering was

[VedaSloan 119179]

So I went today and it was all in in French, so I didn't stay for the whole thing, but since it was put on by le CLAP, they were handing out brochures with their vision on them, which I also could only understand parts of, but which I was thoroughly disgusted by. I kept the flyer, if I get access to a scanner, I'll load it up, or if I get bored enough, I'll just type it out.

 

I had a chance to talk to two members of the CLAP and their views are actually ignorant. They use prostitution as a scapegoat for a number of things, the two main ones being the trafficking of women and children and their sale into sexual slavery, and kiddie porn.

 

Things they said to me:

 

"don't you think that sex is simply the domination of a man over a woman?" (this actually came from a guy, so my response was, well you have sex don't you? He didn't answer. That's what I thought.)

 

"don't you realize the impact you have on little girls?" (excuse me? what impact? I work in total isolation. It's not as though I'm wandering around talking to little kids about the virtues of renting your body. If you're so worried about the hypersexualization of young children, you should be more worried about the media, not us whores trying to make a living on the downlow so we don't get arrested. )

 

"We don't have a problem with prostitutes, they're the victim, if men didn't buy sex, then little children wouldn't get sold into sex slavery." (I'm not joking, this is the actual connection made. Clients are the problem now. And I'm just a dumbass victim.)

 

That's just a few of the gems these folk are trying to proliferate. They push for the continued criminalization of prostitution, despite the fact that neither of these bright souls even knew that exchanging sex for compensation, financial or otherwise, was not illegal.

 

I can't say what the actual academics had to say, because I was so angry I had to leave. They kept telling me how welcome I was, but it was obvious they didn't want me there, particularly when they tried to tell me I had no facts to back up what I was saying. I started quoting both the criminal code and the Canadian Charter of Rights. That shut them up quick. When I first arrived, wearing my Sex work is work! t-shirt, no one would sit anywhere near me. No one acknowledged me, and the one guy who did come over to talk to me wanted to know how I found out about the meeting (his tone implied that he was wondering why I was there at all) and I told him I was forwarded the event info from Chris Bruckert, who is a prof at Ottawa U and a POWER member.

 

All I can say is don't step to me with your bullshit unless you've got evidence to back it up.

[VedaSloan 119179]

There is a beautiful, but sinister and haunting movie made in the Czech Republic about young male prostitutes and pornography. It is fact-based and some of the actors are actual young male prostitutes in Prague.

 

It is called "Mandragora", made in 1997. I would suggest to everybody to watch it.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mandragora-Miroslav-Caslavka/dp/6305777837/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

I have rented it, but it is available for free on the internet if you know where to look ;)

 

Once you've watched it I am absolutely sure you won't be able to trivialize the damages child prostitution and exploitation can do to young people.

 

 

I certainly wasn't trying to trivialize the damages of child prostitution or exploitation, in any way. I was simply trying to point out that the laws surrounding child pornography are somewhat ambiguous and leave room for a dicussion of what exactly qualifies as "obscene." In the case of Matthew McGowan, while he was charged with making kiddie porn, the charge was premised upon the fact that homosexual sex is "degrading," not because the kids were fourteen.

[A***** A***** 510]

All I can say is don't step to me with your bullshit unless you've got evidence to back it up.

 

You go girl! The more you talk/type the more I like :grin: BTW great taste in glasses, my Gucci frames are similar to yours ;) Great minds think alike

[a******s.m*****e 187]

I think the truth is that there is no way of abolishing sex work, because there will always be people who need it and women who want to provide it.

 

I think that sex work is truly empowering as long as it is the woman's choice, no one is forcing her, she keeps all the money, she can choose who she wants to see and she is not a minor.

 

Every other scenario, like minors, or forced prostitution by a boyfriend or a pimp is the opposite: it is not freedom, but oppression.

 

We have to differentiate between the two.

 

As far as abolitionists are concerned, I think we should just let them talk, nobody takes them seriously. In every country, even in the US where prostitution is illegal, it is widely tolerated.

I think that most governments consist of men, and men understand their fellow men's need for this service. :)

Once in a while they punish one that is stupid enough to get caught, like Eric Spitzer, but not because he is using the service, but because he is so stupid that he endangers other people's fun.