Perhaps the oddest question ever

[backrubman 64800]

Hi BRM, You're really creating a dilemma with your dilemma. As many have intimated already, this idea is fraught with "potentials"(good or bad) too numerous to list.

 

Oh wow have you got that right!

 

Also, I would politely suggest that while your wife may be willing to accept your dalliances, purposely fathering a child without involving her in your decision would be wrong.

 

And yet she grants permission to "see someone" or "get a girlfriend" so I admit to writing this one off (yeah, ok, justifying it for my own purposes) as she must realize that condoms do break or otherwise fail and so by extension is she is not also giving permission to do this accidentally? I am the first to admit I am turning accidentally into on purpose for my own cowardly reasons by deciding not to discuss this with her, well at least not yet anyway. And then if I did and she didn't agree...

 

Of course you are free to do whatever you want, but free will is also a double edged sword. Don't get cut! My apologies, BRM, if I sounded blunt. Not my intention.

 

No, not blunt, honest, much appreciated. As this moves further along I have come to recognize that there will soon be a decision point that once crossed is absolutely irreversible. Once I decide to sign documents and require her to as well only God (or the would be mother) can intervene, it is my nature.

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

I admit to not having read the whole thread (but I will).

 

From the jist of it, I say it's a bad idea. I have worked through a personal issue with someone very close to me who agreed to this type of scenario and it hasnt turned out well.

 

Emotions tend to get in the way later on. It's fine and dandy to make these decisions at the spur of the moment but "shit" happens and eventhough provisions are agreed upon, feelings change!

 

This is not a cut and dry situation. Life dictates our course which can change in the spur of the moment. My view is that a child should come into this world embraced by all or adopted by a couple that will make it it's all.

 

Circumstances aside (hey, I am a single mom) the optimal environment contains two parents and to knowingly decide to have a child without this assurance is asking for trouble.

 

With the advances in fertility, my advice to her is to wait until she meets her soulmate (I say this because she is still young enough to wait) and raise the child with both parents either together or apart!

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Gotta respectfully disagree that your wife is going to allow you to define accidental and purposeful as having sorta the same meaning. If you were successful there I would be seriously impressed with your skills. Already am a bit. LOL

 

I am in a similar situation in that I am married and was given permission. My advice, don't mistake permission for forgiveness. I liked your earlier comment about you and your wife having a don't ask, don't tell type policy. Fathering a child is equivalent to telling, 365 days a year!

 

I don't know you but I seem to not want you to make a mistake and I think this is one.

 

All the best, friend.

[JennDDD 1588]

As the mother of three children adopted from foster care, I do not understand this romanticized version of passing on the genes. It's who we love and what we do in our lifetime to better the world that leaves our legacy.

 

Do what you must, but that child will have questions, and you may feel like you want more part in their lives. And who knows, you may already have a few kids out there you don't know about! ;0)

 

Good luck with your decision, but having and raising a child is never about the needs of the parent, rather all considerations should be about the child.

[cat 262460]

I can see how a woman would decide to have a family and choose not to have the father present. I can see how a man in this position see it as an opportunity to fulfill the desire to "leave something behind". I see the wisdom of choosing a father that has the resources to contribute to the child's financial needs and the willingness to honor the mothers code. Both people are willing and consenting adults so it seems like a scenario that needs exploring both in the legal and spiritual sense except that this doesn't involve 2 people, it involves 4. Mother, father, wife and child.

 

What I also see is a family left behind to find out that their loved one had a "secret" life and I have personal experience with that. The devastation it leaves in the wake is of tsunami proportions. The remaining family questions every aspect of the "relationship" they thought they had with their loved one (or less than loved one at that point) and the time spent together; even the good memories become painful; the path to peace is often lost and these people spend the rest of their lives reeling with almost insurmountable trust issues. If you intend to make this child an heir, you need to include your wife in this decision if you don't want to leave her emotionally devastated after your death. Are you prepared to leave destruction as a part of your legacy?

 

Another aspect to consider is the will of this child as it grows. I have a passel of children, some biologically mine; others are my children by circumstance. The one thing that adults consistently underestimate is the will of child in a situation like this. If this child decides that he/she is going to get to know you and be a part of your life, you will have little power to stop this exploding in your "real" life a decade or two down the road. Children are not to be controlled when it comes to a genuine hearts desire.

 

The fly in the ointment that I see is that you want to keep this a secret. If you genuinely love your wife and value her as a human being and life partner, this is a shitstorm on the horizon. Secrecy is a myth, it doesn't exist and all will come out; my intuition tells me, long before you are gone. Are you prepared for that?

 

cat

[Phaedrus 209521]

Yeah, I don't see her knowing about this while I am alive. If she survives me she would of course know all about it with the reading of the will. That may seem like I'm being a bastard but then it would be for much the same reasons she doesn't know about my CERB activities.

 

Ah. Well, that's one of my assumptions out the window.

 

I really don't think you can equate fathering a child with seeing a SP from time to time. The whole point of SPs is that it's all very predictable and easy; you make an appointment, have a nice time, and walk away. No fuss, no entanglements, no consequences. And it does sound to me like your permission to play away from home is at least somewhat based on the assumption that that's all it'll be.

 

But having a kid, even one that you're somewhat distant from... that's a whole different ballgame, with enormous potential for fuss and entanglements and consequences.

 

Chivalry dictates I do nothing to make her feel more inadequate than she already does, so while I have permission for that, I never kiss and tell. Just the same, she must know (women know more than we sometimes give them credit for) but it has developed into a don't ask, don't tell policy over the years.

 

If you'll forgive my being blunt: chivalry might also be considered to dictate honesty, especially if you're looking at a fundamental change to the game. As Cat said, you're storing up a huge shitstorm here; if your wife won't like hearing that you're contemplating this, will she react to finding out that you did it anyway, and hid it from her? If your desire for a child that she can't provide would make her feel inadequate, how much more so your judgement that she couldn't cope with so much as the idea? Yes, you might get lucky and have it all stay under wraps until at least one of you has shuffled off this mortal coil, but there's a good chance that you might not... and I'd advise that you have a plan for that eventuality in place before going ahead. And if you happen to predecease your wife, what would happen if she and your young lady/the child went to war over your will? I have no idea whether that'd be likely to happen... but it could, and if it did, you wouldn't be around to stop it.

[volvolater 657]

Brm.........I don't know that I can add anything here, especially after Cat's comments, and it certainly seems as if your mind is already made up in any case.

 

The questions and rationale you keep expressing seem misplaced (meant in the kindest way if that's possible) to me. As a father of three wonderful adult children, I can tell you that my greatest joy every day of my life, is in having watched them grow and develop (and perhaps even been a small part of that development) into the caring and thoughtful individuals they are today. It also gives me great pleasure to see them make what I consider to be good choices, anything from life partners to how they conduct themselves on a daily basis.

 

Fathering a child truly is the miracle, there are so many men and women unable to conceive for all kinds of reasons. Raising a child and providing for their wellbeing (and not just financial) is where the heavy lifting, and the legacy, come into play.

 

In all your comments I read a lot about your wants and desires, almost as much about your concern for the potential mother (who has made her decisions already, clearly and without you btw) and your desire to change her way of becoming impregnated. What I don't read is any concern at all for your wife's ultimate reaction (implied permission or not), and in fact, you are leaving her the legacy of finding out at the reading of your will. And lastly, other than your desire to negotiate an acceptable arrangement, similar to negotiations you enter into frequently, from your own account, I don't read much about your hopes, dreams and aspirations for this child you might help bring into the world. You talk about the child being your immortality rather than your sacred trust, a trust that you seem willing to part with and negotiate over.

 

Being a parent, absent or full time or anywhere in between, is full of emotion that ebbs and flows through one's life and the life of the child. It is perhaps the single most important and potentially most rewarding investment that one can ever make, but it can't be rationalized and entered into on commercial like terms and conditions. Fatherhood and motherhood are unconditional and are forever!

 

I don't mean to be harsh, and I certainly am not judging, nor do I have the right to judge what you choose to do. You appear to be a thoughtful and well meaning individual, giving freely and unselfishly, and there is much for you to value in that. You've asked for some input and have received much good feedback, do with it as you wish and as you must.

 

Kudos to you for having the courage to pose this question and for receiving the feedback, even feedback you hoped would be otherwise, so graciously and sincerely. I think we all hope that you act in everyone's best interests here and that you are at peace with whatever decision you make.

[Kubrickfan 12836]

Backrubman -- Well, I give you credit for being so open about the topic, and seeking opinions, but that's about it.

 

What I'm reading here sounds like young lady --- who probably doesn't know any better despite being smart --- who thinks (at least right now ... who knows about tomorrow) she wants to have a baby as a single mother and a guy, with his own family commitments, and who should know better, happy to facilitate that. YOU should be focusing ALL your energies on convincing her not to do that until she finds the right person to do it with, period. You should be thinking of your own wife, of what you could end up putting her through, and -- most important of all -- you should be thinking about what you are setting that kid up for. God bless all the single moms and single parents out there as I have no clue how they do it, but the overwhelming majority have no choice. And you are hearing that from the other ladies on this board.

 

I'm not hearing anything about love, about starting a family based on love, about helping out on a regular basis when times get tough, when the child is ill, or up all night, or with schoolwork, or when he/she has trouble with friends, something goes wrong, etc... Etc., etc., etc. I could go on for an hour. What I AM hearing is an overly clinical analysis that has nothing whatsoever to do with bringing a child into this world.

 

And ... meaning no disrespect ... I'm not buying for a minute the fundamental premise that, "geez, unless I have sex with her until she gets pregnant, someone else not as great as me will just do it." That's a lot of baloney and its the basis for your whole rationale.

 

If you participate in this, you are sentencing a kid to proabably never having a father that he/she knows, that participate in their lives as a dad. That's about as sad and shameful as it gets, and its all being done for selfish reasons.

 

To the rest of the board, I apologize for my tone, but we are talking about a real, live kid here and a massive mistake. I hope at least the people (single or married) here with kids ... who have put in endless hours to create great lives filled with love, comfort and happiness, understand. I'm going to stop now before I really get mad.

[Guest Ou**or**n]

Do you question the ladies ability to raise and care for the child without your support? Do you see you help as supplementary or essential? If you are truly selfless, perhaps you can let her have an anonymous father and still provide support - at least there is no potential for much of the potential problems.

 

If you are only willing to provide financial assistance because it is your biologic child then you are truly aiming for the genetic legacy that many here (including me) consider to be folly.

 

Her decisions are not your responsibility. Your 'help' may not be better overall than having a completely anonymous father. I would rather my mom raise me herself and provide by her own means. I would be quite upset if I found out my father who paid for so many things and left me money did so and devastated his wife by not having told her. I would rather an anonymous father than that. It would actually really screw me up as I would feel to be just a pawn and a means to someone else's end.

 

You seem to present this as you having no choice because your offer is 'better' for her and her child than an anonymous father. I disagree on both points. We always have choices. However it does appear your mind is made up so I do truly wish that none of dire predictions come true. They come from our experiences but there is no guarantee they will be yours. Good luck.

[backrubman 64800]

Right for YOU? Intentionally bringing a fatherless kid into the world is right for you? That's the problem in a nutshell. I'm done.

 

And best for her, you forgot to quote that part of what I said. I promise I don't have the reproductive organs to do this alone. While I am in agreement it is not a good idea, you ask me to sentence her to having no support and no future prospect of having the father involved if she changes her stance on this. Or he (someone other than me) may decide to become involved against her wises as that would be his right, to demand visation and have it enforced by the Courts and can do this with no support if he is incapable of paying it. I offer to be involved only with her consent and ensure I have no legally enforceable right to do so.

 

Do you question the ladies ability to raise and care for the child without your support? Do you see you help as supplementary or essential?

 

Yes and essential. Did you put your child though medical school? Would they have had the opportunity if that is what they wanted?

 

If you are truly selfless, perhaps you can let her have an anonymous father and still provide support - at least there is no potential for much of the potential problems.

 

Now that is just ridiculously not possible. I have no right to be anywhere near any child without an invitation regardless of who the father is. And sure, why would I have an interest in visiting and monitoring the progress of some random child? Oddly I do through several charities but don't get to visit.

 

So I was asking for opinions on how to make the best of a poor decision, and that's what I got.

 

Additional comments:

 

Consider the case were a single want-to-be mother visits a sperm bank if you will, do we judge her or the anonymous sperm donor? I don't know exactly where she would find this service but I know it exists as does everything good and evil in the world.

 

Of course she knows she doesn't have to do it that way and that cost, lots of live sperm donors around she can simply approach and ask. It's still a bad decision to make a fatherless child but then if she must, why not one were the donor isn't totally anonymous and wiling to offer support and hope for a better outcome someday?

 

I know a lot of people unfamiliar with this industry would judge both SPs and their clients harshly and we'd have a hard time convincing them there is nothing wrong with what goes on. You haven't been privy to the intelligent conversations I have had with this lady and therefore maybe don't realize how determined she really is and do you really know me? I think if both these things were true you wouldn't be so harsh in your judgement of me (or her). In any event I got my helpful opinions, judgments, responses and they are all most helpful in helping me convince her there is a better way.

[Kubrickfan 12836]

I'm beginning to think this is some kinda of really bad joke. You are doing a really great job of showing this board what a selfish decision you're making, so I probably wouldn't haven't said any more except for your reference to not being concerned about "random kids." I have had the honor of working with these "random kids" on a regular basis, in addition to my own family, and its the greatest experience of my life. And it has nothing to do with your bold decision to squirt some semen into a test tube (if that's what you are really going to do ... you added that convenient fact late) and then throw some money on the table.

 

And as to your persistent references to your money, I have had the good fortune of meeting some of the guys here on cerb, and the other board, and I can guarantee you there are a lot of guys that hobby here that have a helluva lot more money than you but don't feel a need to come on here and talk about it. My experience is the more someone talks about money, the less they have. That doesn't impress me at all.

 

And think about this ... When that kid wakes up at night scared and crying and cant be consoled because his mom is too exhausted to get out of bed for the 4th time after working all day, or that kid wonders why the other kids have dads, or doesn't have a dad to teach them to play catch or ride a bike, I'm sure that kid ... who had nothing to do with with this stupid, selfish decision ... will feel really great knowing that his absent, self-absorbed dad dropped some money in the bank for him.

[Guest *ig*a**]

Iam starting to agree with Kubrickfan at first I could understand your dilema but after following your posts it sounds to me that,no disrespect intened BRM but your ego seems alittle out of control. It's real simple either you do this or you don't. You have alot of people who have given some good advice. You should have enough info to make a solid choice.

[backrubman 64800]

I'm beginning to think this is some kinda of really bad joke.

 

Actually a real life nightmare. I so sorry you or anyone else was offended.

 

And as to your persistent references to your money

 

Yeah, only mentioned as it is really reliant to the issue, costs a lot of raise a child.

 

Thanks again. I'm going to PM the MOD and ask him to close this thread.

 

As I am forced to try to defend a decision I don't agree with either and therefore doing a poor job of it we are getting too far off track here and even too personal / judgemental.

 

People that don't know the whole story and facts are starting to jump to conclusions without intervening logic but I can say as I blame them.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Things have really gotten heated since I last logged in.

 

I understand your concern but you have inserted yourself into a situation that is not of your making...yet. Everyone always has the option of walking away and that's what i recommend you do. Walk away. You can't help all the people who want to do potentially dumb things, so why her? If you feel like you need to help her, you can still do so without involving your sperm. Help her with other forms of support. In any conundrum, even those not of our making, you can always choose to do nothing.

If a doctor is asked by a patient to assist in a suicide and his ethics tell him this is wrong for him, why would he assist? He can wring his hands that he would do it better than anyone else and avoid any pain, so why shouldn't he? Because for him, the greater good is to follow his ethics. She can follow hers.

You claimed you thought this was wrong and tried to talk her out of it. That is the extent of your obligation. If you were being truthful then, stick with your beliefs now.

 

Good luck.

[Kubrickfan 12836]

Dude, there's nothing on the planet earth more personal and important than deciding to bring a kid into this world.

 

You spent the first three pages of this post trying to sound intelligent trying to dissect and dismiss other members arguments ... Many of which were, in my opinion, and with respect to all my friends here, overly polite and diplomatic given the importance of the subject matter. Talking about your "endeavor," etc... Good grief.

 

Nobody is forcing you to do this, and you're no white knight. If you think the solution is to ask the mods to cut off the discussion that you started ... so that you can run away from the hard questions of what it means to be a parent ... which are really the only questions, that is your right.

[JennDDD 1588]

 

Consider the case were a single want-to-be mother visits a sperm bank if you will, do we judge her or the anonymous sperm donor? I don't know exactly where she would find this service but I know it exists as does everything good and evil in the world.

 

In fact many people do judge this woman and the sperm donor. I keep going back to considering the children that already exist without parents to love them. And sperm banks have so many potential ethical considerations such as children not knowing parental lineage, one donor being overused in smaller communities risking potential inbreeding etc. etc. It has happened.

 

So I guess my point was just to rebuke that not everyone is "Yay sperm banks", but I come back to the fact that if this is all about you and your desire to leave a legacy/be immortal. If that is your reason for doing this, then in the end, you will never feel fulfilled. We all die, and trust me many people leave children behind, but that doesn't guarantee the children will like them, or anything like that. the legacy we leave is our actions while we are in this world.

 

Again good luck to you, just consider all implications for this child, and do you want to support potential drama for the future. And "she'll just go elsewhere" is not a reason enough to do it. Someone may want you to buy them meth, but don't do it just because they will go elsewhere if not.

 

Cheers.

[LeeRichards 177238]

Not criticizing but just my opinion. My two cents is don't do it RBM...... coming from a son of a very special and amazing father 80 years old and still in good health and going stong.....and coming from a father of two awesome young children that make my world and life truly mean something at the end of every day. Walk away and let nature take it's course.

 

May I suggest mandatory outfits when you two meet from here on in ? !!

 

 

 

[mrrnice2 157005]

BRM, I have been keeping an eye on this thread since its beginning and to this point did not feel that I had a whole lot to contribute that has not already been said. Even now I am not sure that I will add anything new to it but I do feel that I want to add my two cents worth.

On first reading, my thought was pretty immediate that this is probably not a good idea. After reading post after post and your analysis of each one I believe that my opinion has not changed.

We are living in a very different world from even thirty years ago. There are many single mothers who are successfully raising their children on their own without any involvement of a male father or father figure. Of course not all situations are like that as we well know but in this situation you have explained that in your opinion this woman is capable and will make a wonderful parent. I am still a traditionalist who believes that in the ideal world a family will have a loving mother and father, both present, and both involved with the child or children. It is however not a requirement as we well know and it seems as if she has set her course to be an independent single mother, with or without you.

Therefore the issue is not her wishes, nor is it the welfare of the child, but rather your own wishes, desires, goals and needs.

A version of immortality is how you put it and I suppose that scientifically, as a matter of pure biology and genetics that is true. Many people have achieved their version of immortality however not through their progeny but rather through their own deeds in the course of their life.

To my way of thinking as much as one would like to believe that immortality is achieved through ones children I believe that what is more important are the everlasting memories and lessons that you leave with everyone that you interact with, as demonstrated by the way that you conduct yourself in this life experience.

You of course will do as you will do and I hope that whatever that decision is that it turns out to be the correct one for everyone involved both in the short term and the long.

[piano8950 32577]

I love my mom, and cannot imagine childhood without her. But I love that I have a father too, and even though we are very different people with little common interests, I am ever grateful of his presence, wisdom, and teachings throughout my life.

 

I'm sorry if this point is a repeat (I tried to read as much of the other comments, but there are a lot!), but think of it from the child's perspective. They are successful single parents out there, but why intentionally subject a child (or in the case of twins or more) to that? Personally, I think the potential love for whoever carries my genes far outweighs any primal urge to continue on my line. My 2 very humble pennies