A Ray of Optimism?

[mrrnice2 157005]

I have been around long enough to have seen the many conflicts between Israel and its Arab neighbors. I tuned in regularly over the last week to observe the latest threats and each time shook my head with the futility of the military action from both sides.

 

There surely must come a time when reality actually sinks in and for Israel to understand that a Palestinian state is a must and at the same time for the Palestinians to accept the existence of Israel as a neighboring state. Does that not sound simple?

 

In the aftermath of the Arab spring and with new powers and leaders in the middle east perhaps a new initiative is in the works. One can only hope so. The ceasefire that is now in place is hopefully only the starting point.

 

If there were a Christmas gift that I would ask for it would be for these two sides to sit and to talk and to negotiate in good faith in order to make that region a viable and peaceful area. Is it truly possible?

[emb3750 9398]

We can only hope......

[Serena Blake 14066]

if only the younger generation could only realize that this is a senseless feud that makes the same sense as cartoon hillbillies shooting back and forth from their own mountainside for generations.

Just agree to disagree already and move on going about living happy healthy lives for themselves and their families. Being taught this kind of blind hatred is just wrong and unhealthy. Unfortunately its a cruel reality in so many parts of the world

[Jhena Grey 25615]

Deleted....

[Boomer 33202]

I'm afraid I'm a bit of a pessimist regarding this issue. I feel that with the backing of the USA the Israelis have all the power. Gaza is a ghetto, enforced by a blockade, life there is miserable. The Israelis have consistently encroached on Palestinian land through settlements and the security council with the US veto. It is an embarrassment that the Harper government has abandoned a fairly neutral position and now without reservation appeases the Americans with their pro Israeli position. I think as long as the Israelis aren't able to compromise and make a fair offer they will be further isolated in the region especially with the shifting politics coming out of the Arab spring.

[Guest *l**e]

I heard a quote once...

 

"If the Arabs put down their guns, there would be no more war. If the Israelis put down theirs, there would be no more Israelis."

 

Not sure how accurate this is, but I thought it sounded good.

[Phaedrus 209521]

Can't say I'm remotely optimistic on this one, I'm afraid. Sure, we have a ceasefire today... but Hamas won't stop firing rockets, and Netanyahu's government won't stop building settlements, and it's only a matter of time before it all kicks off again.

 

The combination of religion, politics and territory is thoroughly toxic, and I fear it's also completely insoluble.

[MightyPen 67414]

Yeah. It hasn't really been about religion for a long time; that's just a cloak for maneuvering by entrenched powers. Both sides have people who make money and secure political power only when the conflict continues. So terrible though the situation is for civilians on both sides, there are power-brokers and fortune-seekers who will keep it going.

 

The ceasefire that almost happened, then didn't, was a perfect example. Each side had a faction that wanted the violence to stop, and a faction that didn't. Only when outside powers entered the stage and made their own backroom maneuvers and applied new pressure, did the two sides agree to stop shooting.

 

Both sides also have wacky fundamentalist factions in their general populations; everyone's got some of those guys. Useful idiots whose irrational hatreds are fanned and exploited by those who want to keep the conflict going.

 

It'll take a deep cultural shift on both sides to finally trump the machinations of their leaders; in particular, young people tiring of their parents' and grandparents' feuds enough to make a change. Strangely I take hope from not just things like the Arab Spring, but the U.S. election and the electorate's embrace of gay marriage and legalized pot. Young people really do outgrow their parent's silly obsessions. The 'net helps by democratizing communication among the rational. Let's hope that can happen more, and soon.

[Serena Blake 14066]

If I remember correctly I think their conflict is over possession of holey land believed to be right at the border and who actually has the rights to it

[piano8950 32577]

I really don't think it has ever been a religious thing. Just groups that happen to be from a certain background. The commander of the Munich massacre came from a Jewish Christian family, and a good number of Palestinians are Christian. I think it's been framed to be a Jewish Muslim conflict to simplify matters, as well as rile up support on either side.

 

I don't see a resolution in the next 10 or 15 years. On one side (Israeli), the official demands are:

To be recognized as a state

To have all the settlements as the exist now and to allow for natural growth

 

For Palestinians, it gets more complicated

There are some that will only talk to Israel if the latter is willing to accept the 1967 borders, and in turn remove all settlements beyond the line

Some want to go back to the 1948 borders at the creation of Israel

And some will not accept Israel under any circumstance, and want things to go back prior to the 1940s when Israel does not exist.

 

You have the Fatah and Hamas on the Palestinian side, and depending on your view, that means the two parties in power over their respective areas are moderate and extreme, or extreme and very extreme. You have governments in Israel going farther to the right since Rabin. And when an agreement was made, Rabin was assassinated by someone on the far right.

 

Then as far as the youth go, which has been mentioned by some here, I believe are getting more entrenched in their parents' hatred of the other side. The Arab Spring consisted of Arabs being angry at one of their own. But many leaders invent up a fake enemy (sometimes a real one comes along), and it's citizens are united. The only division is how hated is the enemy.

 

Arab youth, especially ones in Gaza know that the reason they can't leave is because of a blockade. They have grown up to believe it is Israel's fault, and they do not have access to the resources citizens in countries of the Arab Spring had. Israelis fear for their lives every time an alarm is sounded of indicating yet another rocket attack.

 

And then there is Jerusalem.

 

Once a wholly (as of the 20th century on-wards) Muslim controlled city, followed by the British, then in the Palestinian side, then after the 6 Day War, incorporated in Israel and proclaimed the capital, unloading a whole shit storm of new hate from the Palestine side. You have a limited number of countries who actually put their embassies there, while most remain in Tel Aviv. Go back beyond the 20th Century, and Jerusalem has gone from one control to another so many times, it becomes dizzying trying to recollect the order.

 

 

The biggest problem? (In my humble opinion that is) It's not the borders. It's the pain and suffering on both sides. Imagine someone you absolutely love, a mother, father, significant other being killed by a drunk driver or murderer. Some are able to forgive that person, a lot don't. But the slightest bit of silver lining in that incredibly dark cloud is that you probably have other friends and family that can get you through this. Now imagine they are going through the exact same thing as you. Everyone you know feels the loss you are, and you know that in time, the only guarantee is that more are going to die.

 

My bet goes to the Koreas uniting before there is peace here. (I'd like/hope to be wrong)

 

 

And pictures, cause eyes

 

Proposed partition plan, 1947

 

------From a pro-Palestinian website------

1946- They believe that the entire thing less some land is theirs

UN Plan - second one from the left

Israel wins the war at the formation of Israel, wins (legally or illegally) land from Arab opponents

Picture on the right - More or less the state of things now

[oldblueeyez 15475]

As I see it, the problems in the middle east can be summarized

as so: too little alcohol, too much oil. Simple.

[Serena Blake 14066]

wow piano8950, that's impressive research, no joke :)

So basically either side is either 40 or 60 years in the past. wow that's a long time of ignorance. harming innocent people for no reason tisk tisk. I will never understand such foolishness.

 

Additional Comments:

As I see it, the problems in the middle east can be summarized

as so: too little alcohol, too much oil. Simple.

 

I think they could use a poof to freak'n chill the f out. lol or lose focus and motivation.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

The hatred between the two sides is too deep and spanning over 70 years. All started when arabs saw their land confiscated by jewish immigrants from Europe (the second world war survivors not actually born in where used to be called Palestine). The immigrants took over and form a government. Arabs became second class citizens in their own country where they were born and raised. They were treated badly and in some cases terrorized by extreme jewish elements whose goal was to terrorized arabs and drive them out of the newly formed state of Israel, and fearing their lives many did becoming refugees in neighboring countries living in tents. Many arabs were massacred, including women and children. Then the Arabs started taking arms too and fighting back. Whenever Israelis were killing the innocent civilians it was fight for existance in the eye of the world and whenever arabs were killing Israelis they were labelled as terrorists.

 

Israel was backed by the US and the British. Armed to teeth and being experienced fighters (best pilots in the world) they defeated arabs badly in 1967. In 6 days they crushed the entire Egyption, Jordanian and Syrian armies and captured more territories than the original state of Israel. In the 1973 war they didn't do that well but still kept their grounds. The corrupts selfish Arab governments mostly backed by US did not have the will to fight for their arab brothers and sisters. The Egyption and Jordanian economies were in trouble and they both decided their own interest over that of Palestinians. The non-arab Iran made plenty of speeches but arab support had no support among the 95% non-arab Persian population who had their own 15 century dislike wars, and mistrust of arabs.

 

Hatred continued well into 80's and israeli invasion of Lebanon resulting in thousands of civilian deaths did not help either. Deep hatred continued into the 90's and first decade of the century. No major wars between the states but suicides bombers killing innocent Israelis and then the Israeli army retaliating by invading weak neighboring states and killing many times more (than Israelis killed) mostly innocent arab civilians only made hatred deeper. Regretfully this may continue for many years to come.

 

I would like to say that it is time for hatred and killings to end and negotiations for peaceful co-existance start but though I can certainly wish for that, I am not optimistic that it can happen anytime soon. The hatrade is too deeply rooted.

 

The prospects for peace exists when the hate goes away. The Arabs must recognize that Israel has the right to exit Israelis have the right to live in peace and forget about the past atrocities committed (by both sides I may add) and the Israelis must accept that arabs are entitled to their own country and land and be allowed to return to their homeland. Neither of those listed above is possible at this time as we speak (I regret to say). God knows how many more women and children on both sides must die or become homeless or suffer until these people realize the evils of war and hate and that life would be a lot better in peace than war and that love is a lot better than hate. My guess is that this may happen eventually but not in our lifetime but I do hope that I am wrong.

[lipualipua 4704]

Peace will never come to Palestine. The Israelis don't belong there - according to even some Israelis themselves. Check out the books "The Thirteenth Tribe", by Arthur Koestler and "The Invention of the Jewish Peoples" by Prof Shlomo Sands of Tel Aviv University.

 

This said, the reality is that they are already there. So what for do? The Palestinians were gradually coming round to accepting this reality but the Israelis keep provoking them as for example by expanding settlements on Palestinian land, something even the US opposes. The Israelis too, with some justification, defend their action saying that they were victors in war and so the conquered land is theirs.

 

Consider the fate of Jerusalem too. East Jerusalem,where the Palestinians dominate, is the location of most of the religious and political symbols( Herod's Palace and the Second Temple) of the biblical jews, the supposed ancestors of the modern day Israelis.The Israelis possess the western part, a "desolate" partof no ancient religious or political significance. No wonder they are pushing to take over the entire city and make it their capital.

 

The Israelis are hungry for land. A poignant moment during the Camp David Meetings between then-Israeli PM Menachem Begin and then-Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, was when Sadat lifted a finger and pointed it at Begin, saying, "Mr. Prime Minister, you want land".

 

It really is a hopeless case. Consider the Right of Return too. This is a provision made by various peace accords that would allow the Palestinians and their descendants who were driven from their homes during the 1948 and 1967 wars to return to their homes in Israel. The Israelis balk at this and understandably so as they would be overwhelmed in number.

 

It is my belief that Israel should not have been founded at all- after all is there a national home for other scattered ethnic groups such as the Kurds?

The Brits may have had good intentions but they themselves saw that they had made a mistake and so tried in the 1930s and 40s to stop "jewish" immigration to Palestine. They even considered carving out land in present day Kenya and Uganda to serve as a home for the "jews" instead of Palestine!

[Phaedrus 209521]

The Arabs must recognize that Israel has the right to exit Israelis have the right to live in peace and forget about the past atrocities committed (by both sides I may add) and the Israelis must accept that arabs are entitled to their own country and land and be allowed to return to their homeland.

 

And this is precisely why peace will not happen. If the displaced Palestinians were to reclaim ownership of the land they (or more accurately, their ancestors) used to own, there would be nowhere for the Jews to live.

 

You can support Israel's right to exist, or you can support the Palestinians' Right of Return. You cannot have both.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

And this is precisely why peace will not happen. If the displaced Palestinians were to reclaim ownership of the land they (or more accurately, their ancestors) used to own, there would be nowhere for the Jews to live.

 

You can support Israel's right to exist, or you can support the Palestinians' Right of Return. You cannot have both.

 

I agree and that was why in my concluding comments I said there no hope for peace now........ You know I am very optimistic about human race. It will be one day that human race is so advanced that wars, hatred, bigotry, prejudism, racism, ...... will all end. There will be only one race and that would be the human race who would look beyond skin color, race, religion, gendre......That day will not happen in our lifetime but may be in a few centuries?

 

Look how far we have come past century alone. Look where we were 70 years ago where war was raging all over the world, in Europe (Nazis killing machines) and Asia (Japanese mass murder and rape raging East-South East asia) and we have seen more civilized humans. Human right organizations forming all over the world. dictatorships falling one by one in Latin America (Argentina, Chile, ....) and Europe (Greece, Eastern Europe,....) and Middle East (Morocco, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan... and hopefully the few remaining ones will soon fall and be buried for ever in the garbage bag of the history where they belong). Yes I am optimistic that one day human race will advance so much that we eventually will see the promised heaven right here on earth lol. One race (human race), one religion (no religion at all) and total equality for eveyone and a world where an individual will be judged by the size of her or his mind and heart rather than the size of bank account, skin color or race.

[mrrnice2 157005]

I wonder if it is possible for people to accept that, "Where we are is where we are?"

 

In terms of ownership of the land if we go back far enough, to biblical times, the land was Jewish land. Recall Moses and the parting of the Red Sea as they were driven out? By the same token all of our Canada was once native land. Are we obligated it to restore it back? We are where we are and we cannot ignore present day realities.

 

I am still not overly optimistic but there has to be a day when this dispute is resolved in an intelligent way.

[MightyPen 67414]

I think even these old hatreds can be discarded, if the industry of fanning the flames for power and profit can be overcome. At some point every conflict becomes too exhausting for its participants, or at least their descendents.

 

If the Irish could overcome the whole Protestant/Catholic English/Irish divide, so can these people. But particularly on the part of the Palestinians they need an alternative into which they can pour their energies -- come kind of economic improvement, which current conditions preclude.

 

The truly hateful minorities on both sides will always make a lot of noise, but over time they can be marginalized just like homophobes are being in the cultural revolution currently underway in the U.S. Hatred is exhausting, and eventually one generation will decide their ancestors' conflicts don't have to bind them. Education is important here, plus the 'net for open communication and to get past the propaganda wall.

 

But yeah... there are practical hurdles even once there's popular political will to end the conflict. There are some old borders that could be the foundation for coexistence at least. But really, they need some promise of a real economy to give people genuine stake in peace that goes beyond bare subsistence.

[lipualipua 4704]

Mrrnice: you wrote:"In terms of ownership of the land if we go back far enough, to biblical times, the land was Jewish land. Recall Moses and the parting of the Red Sea as they were driven out"

 

So are you implying that modern-day Israelis are the descendants of Moses? Puleeez!.

Any proof?

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I wonder if it is possible for people to accept that, "Where we are is where we are?"

 

By the same token all of our Canada was once native land. Are we obligated it to restore it back? We are where we are and we cannot ignore present day realities.

 

I think the diffrence is that immigrant Canadians also mostly from Europe didn't kick out natives or terrorized them into leaving their homeland and becoming refugees living in tents in neighboring countries and then dropping bombs on their heads every now and then. Israelis did all that to Palestinians though..............

[MightyPen 67414]

In terms of ownership of the land if we go back far enough, to biblical times, the land was Jewish land. ... We are where we are and we cannot ignore present day realities.

Yeah, as others have pointed out, it's not really productive to base policy today on where populations happened to live in the bronze age. The real-world borders of Israel and Palestine are the result of law and conflicts from the 20th century, so that's where we should start from. You can't trace the responsibilities of governments to ancient eras before their respective modern states were founded.

 

You raise a good point about Canada. We're only on this land on the basis of treaties (which the original inhabitants signed at the point of someone's rifle, ours or someone else's; but signed nonetheless). That too is a sketchy legitimacy, but it's not about to change so we all try to make things work together in the 21st century, rather than re-fighting the battles of the 18th.

 

We also suffered our own bit of second-rate terrorism back in the days of the FLQ, but that ugly seed didn't find welcoming soil even in the politicized Quebec of the 60s. That struggle turned political instead, and after its heyday in the 70s and 80s the pulse of separatism is at a low ebb. There's nationalism, but I don't think anyone is taking Quebec separatism seriously going forward. Mostly, young Québequois just want jobs and they really don't really care, or trust, whoever happens to be in charge.

 

It's much the same with the Irish; their tech boom of the 90s and 00s (now sadly vanished) really helped stabilize things. We need to engineer the same circumstances in the Middle East.

 

But now I think I've just said kind of the same thing three times, only rearranging the words a bit. :)

[Phaedrus 209521]

But now I think I've just said kind of the same thing three times, only rearranging the words a bit. :)

 

And to add a fourth: ETA has just announced that it's prepared to disband, although the Spanish government has rejected that because there were preconditions attached. But it is, nevertheless, promising.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head in an earlier post; if you're going to get people to leave behind the battles of the past, you have to show them some kind of future. And that's why the Israel/Palestine thing has been so utterly intractable: there really isn't anything for the Palestinians to do other than carry on fighting.

 

I read something interesting recently (can't remember where, so no link) where it was proposed that the Palestinians should simply give up on a separate state, and announce that they wished to become Israelis, with all the rights and privileges and responsibilities that go along with that. It was an interesting idea... not least because it would, at a stroke, give a lot of Palestinians a positive future. Of course, it'd also mean the end of the concept of Israel as a Jewish state, so it won't fly, but I thought it was a nice idea...

[MightyPen 67414]

I read something interesting recently (can't remember where, so no link) where it was proposed that the Palestinians should simply give up on a separate state, and announce that they wished to become Israelis, with all the rights and privileges and responsibilities that go along with that. It was an interesting idea... not least because it would, at a stroke, give a lot of Palestinians a positive future. Of course, it'd also mean the end of the concept of Israel as a Jewish state, so it won't fly, but I thought it was a nice idea...

Yeah, I remember seeing a documentary a couple of years ago which interviewed a seemingly well-educated, cheerful Israeli woman in her 40s who was pushing a proposal to have Palestine subsumed into a kind of Greater Israel. This would raise the living standard and general prospects of the Palestinians and encourage peaceful interaction, much as I've been describing. Soon they'd be integrated into Israeli society and the problem would disappear.

 

When the interviewer asked her "but what happens when the Palestinians start to assert themselves politically and help shape Israel in ways present-day Israelis might not anticipate?" she looked at him with an uncomprehending half-smile, cocked her head, and said "oh, but of course they wouldn't get to vote."

 

A really chilling moment.

[Phaedrus 209521]

When the interviewer asked her "but what happens when the Palestinians start to assert themselves politically and help shape Israel in ways present-day Israelis might not anticipate?" she looked at him with an uncomprehending half-smile, cocked her head, and said "oh, but of course they wouldn't get to vote."

 

A really chilling moment.

 

True. But then, I fear the person you refer to above has a sadly limited world-view, and a worse knowledge of history. Who said you have to vote to assert yourself politically? :)

 

What she had in mind for Israel was probably something akin to apartheid-era South Africa. Of course, South Africa's politics is now dominated by the legacy of a convicted-terrorist-turned-politician who didn't achieve what he did by voting...

[crankF 12893]

I really don't think it has ever been a religious thing. Just groups that happen to be from a certain background. The commander of the Munich massacre came from a Jewish Christian family, and a good number of Palestinians are Christian. I think it's been framed to be a Jewish Muslim conflict to simplify matters, as well as rile up support on either side.

 

I don't see a resolution in the next 10 or 15 years. On one side (Israeli), the official demands are:

To be recognized as a state

To have all the settlements as the exist now and to allow for natural growth

 

For Palestinians, it gets more complicated

There are some that will only talk to Israel if the latter is willing to accept the 1967 borders, and in turn remove all settlements beyond the line

Some want to go back to the 1948 borders at the creation of Israel

And some will not accept Israel under any circumstance, and want things to go back prior to the 1940s when Israel does not exist.

 

You have the Fatah and Hamas on the Palestinian side, and depending on your view, that means the two parties in power over their respective areas are moderate and extreme, or extreme and very extreme. You have governments in Israel going farther to the right since Rabin. And when an agreement was made, Rabin was assassinated by someone on the far right.

 

Then as far as the youth go, which has been mentioned by some here, I believe are getting more entrenched in their parents' hatred of the other side. The Arab Spring consisted of Arabs being angry at one of their own. But many leaders invent up a fake enemy (sometimes a real one comes along), and it's citizens are united. The only division is how hated is the enemy.

 

Arab youth, especially ones in Gaza know that the reason they can't leave is because of a blockade. They have grown up to believe it is Israel's fault, and they do not have access to the resources citizens in countries of the Arab Spring had. Israelis fear for their lives every time an alarm is sounded of indicating yet another rocket attack.

 

And then there is Jerusalem.

 

Once a wholly (as of the 20th century on-wards) Muslim controlled city, followed by the British, then in the Palestinian side, then after the 6 Day War, incorporated in Israel and proclaimed the capital, unloading a whole shit storm of new hate from the Palestine side. You have a limited number of countries who actually put their embassies there, while most remain in Tel Aviv. Go back beyond the 20th Century, and Jerusalem has gone from one control to another so many times, it becomes dizzying trying to recollect the order.

 

 

The biggest problem? (In my humble opinion that is) It's not the borders. It's the pain and suffering on both sides. Imagine someone you absolutely love, a mother, father, significant other being killed by a drunk driver or murderer. Some are able to forgive that person, a lot don't. But the slightest bit of silver lining in that incredibly dark cloud is that you probably have other friends and family that can get you through this. Now imagine they are going through the exact same thing as you. Everyone you know feels the loss you are, and you know that in time, the only guarantee is that more are going to die.

 

My bet goes to the Koreas uniting before there is peace here. (I'd like/hope to be wrong)

 

 

And pictures, cause eyes

 

Proposed partition plan, 1947

 

------From a pro-Palestinian website------

1946- They believe that the entire thing less some land is theirs

UN Plan - second one from the left

Israel wins the war at the formation of Israel, wins (legally or illegally) land from Arab opponents

Picture on the right - More or less the state of things now

Wow!, That's really is the situation, boiled right down to the nitty-gritty. it's so hard for us to watch this conflict and others like it, and hash over why in the frig can't they just sit down and finally agree on something. What comes to my mind is this: to paraphrase someone,"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

 

As to the reference to the Koreas, that's really hard to try and wrap your head around that whole deal,a modern world class industrial dynamo next door to a starving basket case with an alledgedly paranoid, nuclear armed dictator.

 

It all makes for unpleasant holiday season pondering.