Is having sex with escort cheating?

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Cheating, not cheating. Why does it matter? I find the some of the implicit and explicit moral judgments implied in the word "cheating" simply not appropriate for this board. We don't pass judgements on people's sexual preferences, so I'm not sure why it sometimes seems as if we do around marital status.

 

As the OP, I would like to express my sympathy and also assure you that this thread was not intended to be judgmental in any way. There is nothing about the "marital status" here in specific and the question is broad enough in that regard.

 

I am not an old member of this board nor do I carry any of the fancy titles before my name but I believe that the logic in what I say shall be gauged by its content rather than my reputation points.

 

I don't believe that anyone has the authority to make a judgement in this board about any other member. Hence, the issue mainly folds into opinions that are not targeted to any specific member. Now, I fail to see how such general opinions in an anonymous board where the true identities, at least for the hobbyists, are hidden could be viewed as judgmental. No one was asked to reveal his relationship status or to comment on his/her personal life. The question as it was phrased was general enough to allow for the laxity in the responses.

 

Since I joined this board, this was the third debatable thread initiated by me. The same phenomenon happened each time; a very high flow of traffic coupled with a high surge of replies and not to forget a major resistance in getting into the true subject matter. Whether this reflects the opinion of the majority or the "elite" of the majority that is something which might require some probing. But even, if it were the opinion of the majority, I don't believe that in a free society the majority should put limits on the freedom of discussion unless there are overriding valid reasons.

[MightyPen 67414]

Since I joined this board, this was the third debatable thread initiated by me. The same phenomenon happened each time; a very high flow of traffic coupled with a high surge of replies and not to forget a major resistance in getting into the true subject matter. Whether this reflects the opinion of the majority or the "elite" of the majority that is something which might require some probing. But even, if it were the opinion of the majority, I don't believe that in a free society the majority should put limits on the freedom of discussion unless there are overriding valid reasons.

I've enjoyed all of your discussion threads, Jane; I think they were all thought-provoking and invited everyone to try to shed light on some of the fuzzy boundaries in sexual relations and identities, in ways that were relevant to this industry and the people reading. This thread was particularly risky since it pushes sensitive buttons for a lot of people, but it's a worthwhile discussion to undertake. Even though you and I have different answers to your question, I find the ways you and I got to our respective conclusions educational. Thanks.

 

This thread unfolded partly as I hoped, and partly as I feared. ("Hoped" because we started to get into the nature of cheating and what it means, or doesn't; "feared" because some people are getting predictably uncomfortable and feeling the discussion itself judges and condemns them.) I'm at the point where I've pretty much made my own understanding clear so I haven't much more to add. But I support your effort to engage in an extremely relevant discussion. (And after all, those uncomfortable with the subject could simply choose not to read the thread.)

[Tara 1166]

Without knowledge, there cannot possibly be consent. Therefore, cheating.

What about implied consent? Does a man not getting his sexual needs met by his committed partner have implied consent to see an escort? Most of my clients feel they do. The problem is that their partners would not think so.

[Phantom 5310]

For those people saying they're not judging. Perhaps judging might not be the exact word, but you are putting a negative label on people here. The label "Cheater" is negative. Justifying it by saying "It's only a question I'm not judging them" really does not make the question any less loaded and less offensive to some.

 

I don't think it was necessarily over the line but certainly in the gray area as for should it have been asked.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Yes, in an ideal world it would be great if I could tell my wife. But I'm afraid I simply don't live in that world ...

 

I like the word "ideal world", it just reminds of something similar which exists in the physics' semantics and called the "ideal gas". It is a hypothetical gas that obeys the "ideal gas law". In reality there is no ideal gas, however, all the gases known to us can be treated like ideal gases with "reasonable tolerance" and fail to obey the "ideal gas law" at certain points.

 

I think that we have created "ideal world", "ideal laws", "ideal morals", "ideal lovers", "ideal boyfriends/girlfriends", "ideal husbands/wives" when none of this actually exists given both our internal and external limiting factors.

[Frank7 3939]

For those people saying they're not judging. Perhaps judging might not be the exact word, but you are putting a negative label on people here. The label "Cheater" is negative. Justifying it by saying "It's only a question I'm not judging them" really does not make the question any less loaded and less offensive to some.

 

There's a negativity to the word cheating, but it's still a very clear definition. The question was really objective.

 

A parallel could be made about lying. If you willingly say something you know is not true, then you're lying. There's also a negativity about the word lying. However, most people would aggree that it's the right thing to do in some case. A doctor telling little kids their mother didn't suffer before dying from cancer. An undercover cop lying to a criminal organisation.

 

Just my POV about the issue of judging/putting a negative label based on that question.

[roamingguy 300292]

Is there another word besides cheating that can be used. Adultery and infidelity also carry a judgement laden tone. I repeat again, that using the term cheating in this thread I don't consider judgmental by any of the posters...it is just the commonly used term to describe having sexual (and maybe emotional) affairs outside of marriage

Just posted from a non judging guy

RG

[Athos 108589]

What happens in threads like this is that inevitably a hierarchy of hobbying becomes created.

 

First, there are the single guys who hobby, many of whom will post that if they were in a committed relationship of course they wouldn't hobby (judgement number 1)

 

Second, there is the assertion that it isn't cheating if there is consent (of course not ... that seems self-evident), so this is the second level of the hierarchy. Married but given permission, and implicit in this is the suggestion that married guys should seek that permission, to legitimate their hobbying. (judgement 2)

 

And finaly there are those left ... the "cheaters". (judgement number 3)

 

I'm not saying anyone is making those judgements explicitly or deliberately. But in response to the suggestion that if people feel "judged" they should just not read or participate in the thread I would say this. Any discussion of the question of cheating, which I agree is a useful one, must also include a discussion of the judgments that we, as society and individuals, make about questions of infidelity. So I reject completely the assertion that comments about judgments as they relate to these issues shouldn't be part of the discussion.

 

Of course it's cheating. I know that. End of story on that as far as I can see. I cheat! I try to do it in a way that doesn't harm my SO and my family.

 

And as RG says, part of the issue is exactly the term ... cheating. It is value laden. that is why we call ourselves hobbyists, just as the ladies call themsleves service providers. To find relatively more value-neutral terms. But, just as we've had various discussions of the moral judgements societies make about ladies who work in this business (and about terms like prostitute, whore, etc) we also need to lay bare our own judgements and presuppositions about the men who participate. And let's face it, us cheaters are probably the largest group of clients in this business.

 

Interestingly, I frequently feel the implicit and underpinning judgments about "cheating" and infidelity when reading threads like this. However, I have absolutely never felt the least bit of any sort of judgment from any lady I've ever seen.

 

To paraphrase my good friend RG: Just some random Sunday morning thoughts from a cheater who is completely at peace with the decisions he's made in his life.

 

Porthos

[mrgreen760 37785]

"However, I have absolutely never felt the least bit of any sort of judgment from any lady I've ever seen."

 

Porthos

 

I certainly hope not..... it wouldn't be a real good business decision to express judgements about fidelity on a large segment of the customer base...

 

Peace

MG

[Phaedrus 209521]

So, to attempt to take this discussion to greener pastures...

 

I don't think there's a lot more to be said on the original question. However, it gives rise to two more.

 

Firstly: is it cheating more to have sex with an escort as opposed to someone else? Or, to rephrase, does the exchange of money affect the morality of what you're doing, and if so, how? It strikes me that it probably shouldn't make a difference, provided that money was genuinely free to be spent on recreational activities... but it also strikes me that much of society would disagree, even if they might struggle to put their collective finger on precisely why.

 

Second (and one which others have talked about already), assuming someone is seeing SPs and doing so behind their SO's back: how does that rate, ethically? The idea that a relationship should be ended in toto simply because one party wants something sexually that the other can't or won't provide strikes me as sounding terribly harsh, even without considering the impact on others of a full-on schism. There's more to a relationship than sex, despite the importance of sex. A discreet dalliance on the side (even with a different SP every week) may not be the best situation possible, but I can think of far worse things; we've all been through break-ups, and we all know they suck - and that's before you get to the acrimonious divorce with kids involved.

 

So it seems to me that if we're going to consider relationships that fail because one person finds out that the other has been sleeping with someone else, we should also weigh in the balance all those relationships that have been preserved because someone who wasn't getting what they needed managed to find some other means of doing so, and by means of such a safety-valve the entire relationship was saved from being blown into tiny bits because there was no other way than to end it. And I think that SPs have a hugely valuable function in this regard; when we see SPs we can do so knowing that we won't have to call them afterwards, or otherwise carry on potentially risky communications when it may not be convenient to do so, and we can rest safe in the sure and certain knowledge that no SP will suddenly demand that we leave our existing relationship and all that goes with it for her. How many people have had their long-term relationships fall victim to an affair that was fine until it turned sour? I have no idea, but I'm sure there's an awful lot.

[piano8950 32577]

To the original question, my answer is a simple yes.

 

But I'm a bit confused with some of the comments on this thread about hierarchy and judgement and what not. Anyone here judging someone else is a fool. If you cheat, have an unusual kink, or just something that I don't and never will identify with, I don't care to judge, nor should my opinion about it matter.

 

I see an escort. A fact that no one in my life knows, apart from the escort I've seen. If I relay that little bit of information out to the world, I cannot imagine what the reaction would be like, and I do not wish to find out. I think the question was academic in nature, and seemed to be taken quite strongly on those who are the "cheaters".

 

I am supposedly on the 'tier 1' group of members porthos mentioned, but I've never imagined myself better or worse then anyone here. Frankly, I'm not too concerned about elevating my position here or anywhere for that matter, it seems trivial and childish, and most of all a non-issue.

[LeeRichards 177238]

67 posts....Phew !! Lots of reading !

 

Nah I am not a cheater.... I am receiving naked therapy designed for a sexually neglected married fella. Besides it is good for the Mojo ;)

[Mikeyboy 27133]

OK, weighing in again... hopefully sounding a bit less defensive this time. ;)

 

I just wanted to point out that the question by its very nature is asking for a judgment based on ones own morality and opinion. It is the very point of this type of question:

 

Does "objective description of action" fit "negative label"?

 

Is a lawyer who misleads or omits in order to defend his client a liar?

 

Is a doctor who helps a suffering patient to die a murderer?

 

I point this out as many have stated that this would be an OK discussion if the word cheater didn't have such negative connotations. I submit that it was chosen because it does. There would be no reason for the discussion if it did not come with such baggage, as we already have an objective description of the activity. "Does a married man having sex with an sp qualify as a married man having sex with an sp?" does not make a lot of sense as a question without the intension of some type of moral judgment.

 

Does this mean that we should not discuss it? No I don't believe that any topic should be off limits if everyone is respectful. We should all be aware however that this question by it's very nature is one of judgment and morals. We should be mindful of this, especially on a board such as this.

 

Just my thoughts. (Again). ;)

[Guest t****ster***ke]

i think every hobbyist on here was probably hoping that someone would provide a cogent argument as to how seeing an escort is not "cheating", especially in the eyes of our significant others'. i also think most of us knew in advance the best we could hope for was a silver-tongued rationalization.

 

sex with an SP is so different from sex with a significant other, that i'm sure a lawyer could come up with an argument that says it is technically not cheating, but those of us with any level of common sense would realize they were full of sh--t.

 

there is no ethical "excuse" for seeking fun outside of a relationship, but we should also consider what our cultural feelings on monogamy, and try to better understand why so many people in our society feel like there is no acceptable way to seek intimacy outside a "normal" relationship. is it because we are a moral society or because we are generally sexually close-minded? our society has decided we need to be in faithful relationships, but is that healthy or natural, and does lusting after one person automatically mean you love another person less?

[Guest ***nsut***jr]

So if it's cheating I am just morally bankrupt.

 

If I got a divorce I wouldn't be cheating but certainly bankrupt.

 

Now there is a dilemma.

[Goombata72 1556]

Honesty is the best with your partner.

[Guest ***nsut***jr]

Honesty is the best with your partner.

 

As in " Hey honey, I want to have sex with and escort. Shall I do and incall or out?"

[MightyPen 67414]

OK, weighing in again... hopefully sounding a bit less defensive this time. ;) ... I just wanted to point out that the question by its very nature is asking for a judgment based on ones own morality and opinion.

Well okay, following your example, I'll give this one more shot too. ;)

 

The question is straightforward. There's no point looking for a less value-laden term, because the whole question is about the moral choice the decision represents (or doesn't, if your answer is "no"). And sure, because we can all agree that cheating is objectively bad, saying "yes it's cheating" really does mean saying "yes, that act is bad".

 

But that's not the end of the story. Saying "you're doing something bad" is NOT the same thing as saying "you're a bad person". And that's the most interesting part of this whole discussion: when can a good person decide that cheating in some form is their best option? And we know from this thread and others that there are lots of ways someone can understandably arrive at that decision.

 

Personally I just can't follow the "it's not cheating and here's why" arguments; that's why I said in my first post that they're all just convoluted rationalizations to me. It seems to deny the risks involved, and I think it shrinks away from the reality of the situation.

 

But on the other hand, I'm right on board with someone who can say "yes, I know it's cheating, and yet I've made the decision it's overall the best course of action for my circumstances." You can make that decision with open eyes and still be a responsible adult. There's probably an interesting human story there, that can teach you something about how real grown-up lives can go. It's life, and it's more complicated than we thought when we were twelve.

[Frank7 3939]

Does "objective description of action" fit "negative label"?

 

Is a lawyer who misleads or omits in order to defend his client a liar?

 

Is a doctor who helps a suffering patient to die a murderer?

 

Yep, the lawyer would still be a liar. Just like a white lie is still a lie.

 

I wouldn't use the word murder. I really doesn't fit those definitions.

"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice" "To kill brutally or inhumanly."

However, he'd still be a killer, even if it was mercy killing. Just like a police shooting down a criminal during a bank robbery is still a killer.

 

I think there's a difference between a word that is objectif but seems negative because society usually condems it and a word that is negative/insulting.

 

Take "sex before marriage". That's just an objective fact. But in a very religious community, it was a very negative label.

[cu***ngl***us 2024]

Well here's my two cents on the matter cheating is only cheating if you think that. Look from what I read here probably 60 to 70 percent of the members here are married or attached to someone. Does that make the majority cheaters?. Cheating seems to be more of a frame of mind. We all want to beleive that we meet someone and fall in love forever unfortunatly in reality that doesn't always happen as humans we have needs that need to be satisfied. Whether its sexual or an imotional need. If we didn't then none of us would be here.

[Ashley Ann 75247]

Yes. It is cheating-just a different form. Should I one day get married, and if my husband chose to mess around, I would much rather he had a nice no strings attached kind of time with a pro then fall head over heels with some random woman.

[GHT 798]

Here is my rationalization:

 

I have an SO who I love and want to keep, so seeing escorts seems like a better choice than having an affair with some other woman. Its safer from the don't get caught point of view and I don't consider it cheating. Cheating to me is forming an emotional attachment with a woman rivaling your SO relationship.

[xxxAxxx 21016]

Here is my rationalization:

 

I have an SO who I love and want to keep, so seeing escorts seems like a better choice than having an affair with some other woman. Its safer from the don't get caught point of view and I don't consider it cheating. Cheating to me is forming an emotional attachment with a woman rivaling your SO relationship.

 

As was previous stated in the thread, your SO probably would not feel the same way!

 

On a side note, I don't think the thread was started with the aim to label anyone, it's clearly just a discussion about a word that may have a negative meaning in our society. If we cannot come to CERB to share our thoughts, ideals and opinions, then someone please tell me what it is exactly that we are doing here....??? Like most other thought-provoking threads, this one shows us that not everyone acts, feels or thinks the same way.

[GHT 798]

As was previous stated in the thread, your SO probably would not feel the same way!

 

 

LOL, yes I'm sure she wouldn't like it. But then again she's not happy with a few other things I do.

 

I just do what I have to do to stay sane in a relationship. The alternative is leaving.

[LeeRichards 177238]

Therapy tells me....

 

I am a "cheater cheater cookie eater"

 

Lee loves cookies :)

 

No cure in sight as of yet ;) Such is my life !