Provider economics: Questions for the business ladies.

[mister_crufty 4891]

This may be a super boring subject and I expect many of you aren't interested in this kind of discussion but I've been thinking a little bit about the cost-benefit analysis of this line of work.

 

I started out thinking simplistically. Imagine a hypothetical courtesan who charges $200 per hour and averages 10 clients per week. If she had a generous vacation schedule and worked only 45 weeks per year, she would be grossing $90k. If she chose to be completely under the table this would probably be equivalent to at least $120k per year.

 

This sounds like a lot of money but now we have to take into account costs. Advertising, supplies, clothes, rent of incall site. This can add up...not sure but I could guess maybe $20k per year or more?

 

I'm going to assume that many of you ladies are good tax payers so in this case we'll say the 20k is deductable so adding base rates and other deductions, you have 90k - 20k = 70k of which maybe 35k is taxable income. So how does a $60k per year take home pay sound?

 

So then we get into the actual hours worked. This is where my guesswork is pretty vague. If I were going to guess, I might say another hour per client for set-up and take-down, communications, etc. Someone might be able to give a better estimate. This takes us to 20 hours per week.

 

The real kicker is the time spent communicating with others. Now I kind of hope some ladies might help me out. How much time per week do you spend dealing with email, calls, texts, etc.? It seems like your evenings and weekends must be the busiest times which is kind of a bummer for a social life.

 

Would you say for most of you that this is a full time job? Does it occupy a full 40 hours a week or more? I'm wondering what the real hourly rate works out to. Maybe us guys won't think this is so expensive if we knew how hard you ladies really work.

[Phantom 5310]

You're also missing a key factor in your economics. It's like sports stars. Their career is shorter than the regular person. A $60 grand (by your calculations) a year job might sound like a good haul to you , but consider you have to retire much younger. Also, I could be wrong but 10 clients per week EVERY week is probably pushing it. Some weeks might be higher but summer weeks are usually low due to family vacations if I recall being mentioned before, so some of those weeks would probably make the average lower.

[mister_crufty 4891]

Yeah, it's a grass-is-greener thing. Lots of things look good from 20 thousand feet but when you dig in deeper, it's a pretty tough job.

 

Makes me love and appreciate these hard working ladies even more.

[Kathryn Bardot 99339]

I have never seen a provider post here wondering how much clients make based on their reviews or hobbying habits. There are some things that are not appropriate. This would be one of them.

[Sensual Erin 33928]

Here's an excellent economic example from the MOD in a similar thread that was posted in the New To This area.

 

For Instance... Such things as..

downturns (How to anticipate and how to ensure security)

never admitting your slow (sales are down) most business professionals know NEVER to do this (Always say your doing great)

ROI (Return on investment - how to make 10.00 into 100.00)

landing a deal (Market, Sales Pitch and HOW TO seal the deal!)

Addressing your customers needs (It's not always about the sex or the looks - the personality is very important and the way you make your customer feel is very important)

phone sales (Mannerisms... not to answer the cell phone while driving or with screaming kids or yelling friends... or loud music playing)

Time Management

scheduling

Follow Ups

Repeat sales (Return clients)

etc...

 

Hoping that answers a few questions and clears up your question below.

 

"Would you say for most of you that this is a full time job? Does it occupy a full 40 hours a week or more? I'm wondering what the real hourly rate works out to. Maybe us guys won't think this is so expensive if we knew how hard you ladies really work."

[LeeRichards 177238]

I have never seen a provider post here wondering how much clients make based on their reviews or hobbying habits. There are some things that are not appropriate. This would be one of them.

 

Yup !! Absolutely agreed. I wish all of you ladies were rich :) not my / our business however.....

[Phantom 5310]

I have never seen a provider post here wondering how much clients make based on their reviews or hobbying habits. There are some things that are not appropriate. This would be one of them.

 

I would certainly agree it is inappropriate to ask a lady how much she makes a year, but to ask someone how much the average person makes in a certain field of work is quite normal. Especially for someone considering entering the field. I have been asked myself that on numerous occasions.

 

From a customer's point of view though, you don't typically ask people offering you any type of service how much they make. It can easily come off as "I'm wondering if you are over charging"

[mister_crufty 4891]

I have never seen a provider post here wondering how much clients make based on their reviews or hobbying habits. There are some things that are not appropriate. This would be one of them.

 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'm certainly not trying to pry.

 

As I said, it's very easy to say, "$250 an hour? These girls have got it made, living the high life". My intent was just to examine it more closely to show people that it's a pretty tough job. Some clients are pretty demanding and can be real pricks. Maybe if they knew that it's not all roses and candy-canes they'd be a bit more appreciative.

 

It's kind of like billable hours for lawyers. You can only bill so many per week but your overhead is still there. As self employed people, if you're sick or injured or something? Too bad, no money for you. It's tough.

 

I guess this is just me trying to think deeply about the profession to get a better appreciation for these ladies putting themselves out there, taking risks, making some lucky guys happy one date at a time. You're like the super-heroes of sex!

 

Additional Comments:

Erin, thank you so much for your analysis. You really opened my eyes to just how many things a provider has to be on top of in order to be successful in the business. You have to be your own secretary, sales and marketing exec, etc.

 

Once again, I'm not trying to be nosy. I'm just new here and I wasn't expecting the level of professionalism and pride that so many of these ladies put into their work. I'm really astonished and would never have imagined that the sex trade could be like this.

 

I think many people outside this hobby probably share that view. They've never thought about how it's a real business, easily comparable to a lawyer, plumber, accountant, physiotherapist, whatever. And it seems like many of you are running your businesses in an incredibly professional, ethical and efficient manner.

 

My hat is off to all of you.

[Kathryn Bardot 99339]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'm certainly not trying to pry.

But you are prying. For someone who has only been seeing providers for such a short period of time, you are certainly making assumptions, and based on your previous posts you have a history of crossing boundaries. Perhaps you should be reflecting on that and not spending so much time analyzing providers.

[Nicolette Vaughn 294340]

I don't think you're going to get an answer you're looking for here as most of us don't like talking about business. I'm certainly not going to discuss and analyze how many hour a week we work while someone is going to do the calculations on the internet.

 

For what's it worth, this profession is pretty much looked down upon by mainstream society and most people think we just lay on our backs and like magic, the money appears. If it were only that easy! So what makes people think SPs are going to even go as far to answer these questions?

 

I realize you are new here and are probably fascinated by this industry and all the lovely ladies but as in other organizations or businesses, there are some questions you do not ask.. even if it's directed at them through a community message board like this one.

 

When people ask these things, I often wonder if they are a writer or investigative journalist? It wouldn't be the first time this sort of thing has happened in this business.

 

 

"My tell it like it is" 2 cents worth...

[PistolPete 61421]

Any lady I visit doesn't ask how much I make a year,and I certainly never ask that question in person or in a open forum to ladies.

 

There is a form of diplomacy and discretion required while participating in the service industry with ladies.

 

Let's just stick to the basics of meeting ladies,it makes everything so much more easier for everyone involved.

[Gabriella Laurence 301887]

Perhaps this thread might be helpful (off and on the board) and a good read for those who are new to Cerb and the lifestyle?

 

Section: New to this? Things you should know...

 

Questions/subjects to avoid initiating with an SP

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97946

[Sweet Emily J 172062]

While I don't necessarily think there is any ill intentions here, I tend to agree with the ladies on this one.

 

I am one of minority who shows my face, and I do consider myself to be fairly open about what I do, but of course there are boundaries.

 

This thread reminds me of one of my all time favourite threads (and a very useful one for newbies too), about questions and subjects to avoid. The topic of income is covered there too.

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97946

 

Some ladies are very open about what they do, and willing to answer questions and share their experiences about the industry. But there is a level of trust that goes with that. Not too many are going to just open up to a stranger (let alone online). I do think that getting out real information about what the industry is all about, and dispelling myths is a good thing for all of us, but there is a certain way to do it.

 

Asking questions is a great way to learn about something that interests you, but rather than always jumping in head first, maybe consider that patience, time, and experience is also a good way to gain knowledge too. A lot of veteran hobbyists know a great deal about the industry, but they didn't learn it all in a couple months.

 

Sex can make some people crazy sometimes... for better or for worse. While I personally prefer to keep things simple, I don't think that analytical thinking is always a bad thing, but sometimes it's okay to keep it to yourself... or a shrink! ;)

[Andee 220524]

The short answer is: It's none of your business how many clients a lady sees in a week/how much she makes.

 

Period.

[mister_crufty 4891]

But you are prying. For someone who has only been seeing providers for such a short period of time, you are certainly making assumptions, and based on your previous posts you have a history of crossing boundaries. Perhaps you should be reflecting on that and not spending so much time analyzing providers.

 

Point well taken. I'm a huge nerd and whenever I discover something new (golf, cooking, any type of hobby), I completely immerse myself in it to the point of obsession. I want to learn everything I can possibly know about the subject. It's an OCD thing and I truly apologize if I've offended anyone.

 

I see many many thanks and nominations to the posts shooting down this question so I respectfully withdraw it and won't discuss it any further.

 

Additional Comments:

The short answer is: It's none of your business how many clients a lady sees in a week/how much she makes.

 

Period.

 

I've apologized before and I'll continue to do so here. I was only curious about the general business model, not specifics of any provider.

 

As I said, I withdraw my question and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

 

Additional Comments:

When people ask these things, I often wonder if they are a writer or investigative journalist? It wouldn't be the first time this sort of thing has happened in this business.

 

Computer programmer with OCD about new subjects. Sorry for any offense.

 

Additional Comments:

Perhaps this thread might be helpful (off and on the board) and a good read for those who are new to Cerb and the lifestyle?

 

Section: New to this? Things you should know...

 

Questions/subjects to avoid initiating with an SP

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97946

 

Now I'm REALLY wishing I had seen that thread. I've never been on the other side of a flame war before. It really sucks and I feel really bad.

 

Sorry. :-(

 

Additional Comments:

The short answer is: It's none of your business how many clients a lady sees in a week/how much she makes.

 

Period.

 

Sorry. Again, I wasn't trying to ask questions of a specific provider...just to understand the business model.

 

Please everyone stop yelling at me...I'm sorry! :-(

 

Additional Comments:

While I don't necessarily think there is any ill intentions here, I tend to agree with the ladies on this one.

 

Thank you for being gentle. You're right though. I can't expect to learn everything about something in a few weeks.

 

You want to know how bad it is having OCD? I was browsing CERB the other evening when it occurred to me that I was on the laptop while watching TV on the couch with the wife.

 

Does that seem like a smart thing to do?

 

I am a bear of very little brain.

 

--------EDIT--------

Just looked at that list. While the majority of the questions are quite awful and I can't believe anyone would ask them, I'm ashamed to say I've been guilty of asking a few of them. Not for any ill intentions but just because I'm friendly and like to get to know people. It really didn't occur to me that they were widely considered inappropriate. Taylor Monroe (my first) shared her name with me so I didn't know it wasn't common practice.

 

I think I owe some more people some apologies as well...(Hi Cleo! Hi Taylor!). I've kind of been a bull in a china shop.

 

--------EDIT--------

I hope everyone understands that I have the utmost respect for all you ladies and the work you do. I'm trying really hard not to get put on the blacklist here because I love seeing you and I really want to be a good client.

 

Additional Comments:

But you are prying. For someone who has only been seeing providers for such a short period of time, you are certainly making assumptions, and based on your previous posts you have a history of crossing boundaries. Perhaps you should be reflecting on that and not spending so much time analyzing providers.

 

I found this comment excessively harsh. The only reason you know of my mistakes is because I stood up, owned up to them and posted them here so others might not make the same ones I did. Lessons learned through stories are more memorable than lists of rules.

 

 

I make mistakes. We all do. I did over 5 years in jail as a young man for a mistake I could have tried to deny. Instead I turned myself in, confessed what I had done and did my time. I believe this is what men do.

 

 

Actions speak louder than words so lets look at my actual behavior.

 

 

I show up on time, clean and well groomed above and below the waist.

 

 

I treat ladies with respect. I see each provider I meet as a unique individual who I try to get to know and understand as much as I am able. Perhaps this is not always welcome. I'm still learning.

 

 

I never (so far) have put my pleasure ahead of hers. I want to give as much as I receive.

 

 

I contribute to these forums, trying to make contributions to foster interesting or fun discussions.

 

 

I try to write thoughtful recommendations for providers to show how much I appreciate them and hopefully help them find clients who will appreciate them as well.

 

 

I never objectify women or treat them as anything less than unique individuals who have the same hopes, dreams, troubles and strifes as the rest of us. Perhaps ironically for a hobbiest but I consider myself a feminist.

 

I am not 'analyzing' providers as you say but trying to understand the profession. When I'm waited on at a restaurant, I understand how hard they work and for how little money. I'm unfailingly kind and always leave a tip, even if the service isn't great because I know that it's hard and they don't always have a great day.

 

I just wanted to get a bit better idea of how the day-to-day behind the scenes business worked. Perhaps the money part was a red herring. It's more just to get perspective of the sacrifices made for the job in terms of evenings and weekends lost, spare time interrupted by constant emails, texts and calls, etc.

 

Once again, I'm sorry for any offense.

[cat 262460]

Darling mister_crufty,

 

You are apology is appreciated, it shows character. The ladies were bang on clear in their answers and as I read your initial post before anyone responded; I knew how it was going to roll out. You are not the first newbie to make this mistake and you certainly won't be the last. Those of us who have been around awhile have watched the newbie phenomena before and we'll see it again. We understand it's easy to get excited (especially when pretty girls are involved) and want to learn all that you can when the wheels in your mind are spinning.

 

CERB has a wealth of information just waiting to be soaked up and it's more important for newbies to read in the beginning than it is to ask questions. I haven't seen a new industry related thread topic in years; I would be genuinely surprised if one came up. Every appropriate topic has been discussed at length at some point and is in the archives here somewhere. Newbies would be wise to spend a couple of months perusing and watching a boards dynamic before they decide to start multiple threads asking questions.

 

I will answer your initial question because it consistently urks me when I read posts about providers "rolling in the dough, living the high life". I average $19/hr after expenses/before taxes per week. In the last 7 years I can count on one hand the number of weeks I've seen anywhere close to 10 guests in a 7 day work week and they all fell into a time when I wasn't located here in Ottawa and would return once a month for a visit. There are far to many variables in each providers life to come up with a "general" overview of the economics of our industry. I'm always amazed when I sit down with a man and he tells me what he thinks I make, his figures are so far away from my reality that I laugh out loud. I have yet to meet a person that has any real clue unless they have been a sex provider of some sort.

 

The key here is not take the reactions in this thread personally. Understand that often people will give you an answer to a question that you don't expect and the lesson you learn from their answer is far more valuable than if they had given you the type of answers you were seeking...

 

cat

[mister_crufty 4891]

Thanks Cat. You're very kind. I'm definitely going to spend more time in the sticky posts and such so I don't ask the same stupid questions that have been answered before.

 

---edit----

 

deleting more of me putting my foot in my stupid fat mouth based on next reply.

[bcguy42 38594]

Thanks Cat. You're very kind. I'm definitely going to spend more time in the sticky posts and such so I don't ask the same stupid questions that have been answered before.

 

I appreciate your candor in answering my poorly chosen question. I hadn't thought through it but I wasn't trying to discover what the hourly rate was but more along the lines of, is it worth it? Is it a good profession to recommend for someone? How does it compare in terms of amount of work vs. reward to other jobs? $19/h is not a bad wage if you're doing something you love but kind of crappy if the job sucks. All jobs have good and bad but it seems like the bad of this job might be pretty awful. I think the worst might be isolation from friends and family. I imagine not every provider is lucky enough to have close friends and loving family who accept what they do. Having been in jail and isolated from loved ones, I can understand how much that can suck.

 

With all due respect if I may give some advice, stop while you're ahead. You were doing pretty well after your apology. In this latest post, I see a couple or three things where you are projecting your ideas about someone else's reality.

 

This can all be quite simple. Check around and find someone that interests you. Make contact and arrange a rendezvous. If you are lucky and respectful, you'all will get naked, wonderful things will occur, and you will leave with a great big smile.

 

It is possible to over-think the process.

 

As I said at the beginning, this is written with all due respect from the viewpoint of someone who has been too many places, done too many things, and owns an extensive collection of the t-shirts. :)

 

Enjoy and happy pooning!

[mister_crufty 4891]

With all due respect if I may give some advice, stop while you're ahead. You were doing pretty well after your apology. In this latest post, I see a couple or three things where you are projecting your ideas about someone else's reality.

 

This can all be quite simple. Check around and find someone that interests you. Make contact and arrange a rendezvous. If you are lucky and respectful, you'all will get naked, wonderful things will occur, and you will leave with a great big smile.

 

It is possible to over-think the process.

 

As I said at the beginning, this is written with all due respect from the viewpoint of someone who has been too many places, done too many things, and owns an extensive collection of the t-shirts. :)

 

Enjoy and happy pooning!

 

Ahahaha! Thanks man. I appreciate that. No one will ever accuse me of not overthinking things or knowing when to quit while I'm ahead. I spend far too much time trying to put myself in other peoples shoes.

 

I'm in the process of trying to make a date or two for this week. Wish me luck. Hopefully there are still some ladies left who haven't put me in their blacklist. ;-)

[cat 262460]

Is it worth it? Now there is worthy topic, not the mindless chit chat that normally comes up! Unfortunately, we providers have our hands tied when it comes to discussing this on public boards as it erodes the fantasy that we sell to make a living. A smart provider realizes that honest answers to this question could be professional suicide so we tow the expected party line of us all being insatiable nymphos that just can't get enough. There is no blanket answer that will cover every provider, each woman would have to weigh in with her perspective individually and we are a private bunch. TMI will kill the mood, it's like a married couple discussing credit card debt before going bed.

 

This industry is the extreme on both the good and the bad. Is it worth it financially? For me, I would say that I make it "worth it" because I am unemployable in any other field that would allow me to support my family. Providers are an amazingly resilient bunch and we will always find a way where there isn't one. This can be very gratifying trade but the financial rewards for providers isn't anywhere near what is needed to ensure long term financial stability. The bad is unacceptable in polite conversation and best kept amongst ourselves or else we come across as complaining bitches which certainly doesn't help put food on the table.

 

Would I recommend anyone get started in it? No, not if there were any other options because it takes a rare and special breed to survive and thrive in this trade and those that are not forged of the right steel end up rotting from the inside out and crumble eventually.

 

While you may have real questions that burn for answers, remember that every word we write on here is read by clients and potential clients. CERB is primarily an advertising medium, we sell a service that is convenient fantasy and clients read our posts to decide if we are someone they would like to spend their hard earned money with. Offering up honest answers about certain subjects is often not a good business move as it will not change the status quo and could potentially harm our income...

 

cat

[mister_crufty 4891]

Thank you Cat! This is actually the answer that I was really trying to get to in my round about way. Computer programmers...always gotta be about the math.

 

I just want to say that I love what you all do. Not just for me personally but for every other lonely guy like me out there. I wish I had been able to do this years ago. When I think of all the bad times I've had to get through by myself and what a difference the comfort of a paid companion would have made in my life, I have no words.

 

Thank you so much to all of you for putting yourselves out there.

[SamanthaEvans 166767]

. . . is it worth it? Is it a good profession to recommend for someone? How does it compare in terms of amount of work vs. reward to other jobs? $19/h is not a bad wage if you're doing something you love but kind of crappy if the job sucks. All jobs have good and bad but it seems like the bad of this job might be pretty awful. I think the worst might be isolation from friends and family. I imagine not every provider is lucky enough to have close friends and loving family who accept what they do. Having been in jail and isolated from loved ones, I can understand how much that can suck.

 

The simple answer is, Yes, it's worth it, or it can be worth it.

 

I'm glad that you appreciate Cat's wisdom. She knows what she's talking about. One of the things she says is that "little girls don't say they want to be prostitutes when they grow up."

 

Most women who enter the sex trade do so because something has gone wrong in their lives and they have a sudden, very urgent need to make a considerable amount of money very quickly. It could be that a relationship has ended and they need to pay a lawyer to help them continue to have custody of their children. It could be that someone has tricked them, stolen from them or harmed them in some way. It could be that someone else in their life has become ill suddenly or needs help, support, shelter.... And yes, sometimes the woman has acquired a considerable debt whether through her own mistakes or because she trusted someone else too much. There are many, many reasons.

 

Most of these same women leave the business within about six months. Few stay for more than a year. In my own, rarely-humble opinion, a lot of those who work longer would be better off doing something else because most women are just not equipped, emotionally or psychologically, to be on close, intimate terms with many men in a month, a year or a lifetime. That they need to make this choice always costs them something that may be hard to identify at first, but it's there. Anyone who has to spend a lot of time being suspicious of other people, questioning every motive and accepting that the majority of the people she meets are engaging with her solely out of self-interest while doing their best not to be honest with her, is also going to learn not to be very trusting of anyone. Anyone who has to have a secret life carries an enormous vulnerability, too, and no matter how well-disguised that vulnerability may be, it is never divorced from realistic fear.

 

But the women who get what they need out of our line of work and then either quit working because they can afford to do something else, or continue working because they've found a way to position themselves and build the kind of business they can honestly enjoy--for them, this is a worthwhile profession. There's a lot to be said for having the opportunity to meet a wide variety of people and to know them at a deep level. To be present to another's weaknesses, sensitivities and vulnerabilities is an honour. To have others' confidence and trust is a fine, fine thing. Most of us are kind, empathetic women who enjoy taking care of others and who find satisfaction in feeling that we've made a positive contribution to someone else, even for an hour or two. These intangible things are hard to find in any line of work.

 

So, there's the satisfaction that comes from having survived, from having achieved something very important and from having contact with other human beings who are as messed-up and flawed as we are and who are also worthwhile, funny and engaging creatures.

[fredsmith 5240]

So how does a $60k per year take home pay sound?

 

 

I don't want to jump on the bandwagon MC, but being a person who never likes to discuss my salary with ANYONE, if someone asked me this question I wouldn't like it.

 

Unless you're in a union or the type of business where you know what a person makes based on their title or position in a company it isn't a question you should ask.

 

You say you're a computer programmer, have you asked all your co-workers their take home pay? That you're new (as am I) and curious is totally understandable but this isn't something you should be learning now or here.

[mister_crufty 4891]

Thanks Sam,

 

This is kind of what I suspected. I think I would prefer to only see the latter type of woman if possible. I'd hate to think that I was doing this with someone who was doing it because they felt trapped or were badly damaged.

 

These are the types of thoughts that make me incredibly conflicted about this. The women I've met so far seem to be stable, well balanced, secure and confident ladies who I feel proud to spend time with. I think that I would feel very guilty if I thought they were victims in any way.

 

But what is the right way to think? If someone is in the sex trade but don't really want to be or it's doing them emotional harm, is it ethical for me to see them? I tend to think not but the other side of the coin is that they need the money for some reason it's not for me to judge their situation and refuse to help them get it. If I'm kind and gentle and considerate with them in giving them money for their services, does that make it okay?

 

I think I need to take a women's studies course or something. :-P

 

Additional Comments:

I don't want to jump on the bandwagon MC, but being a person who never likes to discuss my salary with ANYONE, if someone asked me this question I wouldn't like it.

 

Unless you're in a union or the type of business where you know what a person makes based on their title or position in a company it isn't a question you should ask.

 

You say you're a computer programmer, have you asked all your co-workers their take home pay? That you're new (as am I) and curious is totally understandable but this isn't something you should be learning now or here.

 

I'm trying not to keep dragging this out but I NEVER EVER IN ANY WAY implied that I was trying to find out what any individual makes.

 

If someone tells me they are a programmer with certain skill set and experience doing X at company Y, I can have a pretty good idea of the salary range. I was just trying to see how this profession compared in the most general way to other main stream professions.

 

And, as I replied above, I'm less about numbers and more about cost-benefit of the profession as a whole.

 

------EDIT------

Can we please close this thread? It's starting to get off topic and I feel badly enough already....it's exhausting trying to defend myself especially when I'm not particularly defensible in this case.

[Hector17 9215]

I'm thinking I just want to meet pretty ladies with great personalities who I enjoy spending time with, and hopefully they me...and having fun together.

I have, and continue to do so.

I dont even give the $ a second thought ...I hope they are all very successful. I learned early on not to ask questions you might not really want to know the answer to....and luckily figured that out before I asked any...so all good.

A lot of good insight here from Cat, Samantha, Erin and others, but I always see Amelias' points as very sensible...especially in this thread.