Ethics - Outing a fellow hobbyist

[theoldguy 507]

Here's an interesting situation. I take occasional contracts on the side for various electronic surveillance (corporate background checks, suspicious wives, etc)

 

In this case an interested party (sister-in-law) suspected a man of straying from his marriage and paid a somewhat substantial amount of money to know for sure.

 

Spent quite a bit of my spare time setting this up and let the tools of the trade do their thing. Tonight I'm parsing through the results and basically found a fellow hobbyists hobby email, complete with registration to forums, agency mailing lists, direct communication with escorts that I've even seen myself in the past...

 

On the one hand I dont get paid if I come back empty handed, (well, not paid as much), on the other hand I dont feel right outing someone for something I am guilty of myself. Not sure if what the right thing to do is here from a professional and personal standpoint.

 

Opinions?

[Dabbler 702]

Well not hat I'm an expert but I'll weigh in. At first gance, I have 2 issues with the situation. First, I'm having difficulty with the client being the sister-in-law. I personally don't see it being any of her business. It would be very different to me if your client was the wife but I feel that just because someone wants to know something doesn't mean they have a right to know. I say this not being familiar with the industry and not knowing what is common practice. It's just my opinion.

 

The second issue, and probably more pertinent, is the "outing" you describe. I think although we try to separate our hobbying lives from the "real" world, we simply can't completely. I also feel that it is a similar situation to being at the grocery store where you run into a fellow hobbyist with his wife. In that situation you would either ignore him or come up with some story about how you knew each other. I think there exists a "code" that we must adhere to. It's a code which is mutually beneficial. You know something about him but he may also know something about you. Even if he doesn't Karma has a way of working these things out. I think the fact that struggling with what to do probably means you already know that you don't want this client.

 

 

So I'd suggest, you go to the client and tell her you've discovered a personal link to the gentleman which disqualifies you from taking her as a client and give her her money back.

 

My $0.02. Pennies are still accepted, right?

[CristyCurves 169032]

Before taking this case why wouldn't you have known this was a possible scenario? After all if a man is stepping out it could be with anyone from anywhere. I'm just surprised you wouldn't have thought of that, anyway, not lecturing just wondering. But now that it has occured I would turn in the information you have omitting the hobbyist activity. If that is possible. As you said you still get paid and she will have most of what she is looking for. If the hobbyist activity is all the proof you have I would drop the case and tell her there was nothing to be found.

I always find it funny when women especially want these types of investigations as we are very intuitive creatures. When we suspect something it is for a reason. Imo just having the suspicion is the answer that there is infidelity.But I suppose some need visual proof. Tough situation but in the end it is only you that can decide what to do as it is you that has to live with your decision. Hopefully the sister in law won't decide to join cerb at any point, lol. Just trying to lighten the mood:icon_biggrin:-good luck.

[brockvilleman 615]

business is business. i am not married so doing this hobby will not affect my home lifeand if i was i wouldnt be here. so to me if one is married they are taking the chance and that is nothing to do with you. you have to make a living and let the chips fall where they may.

[spud271 47779]

As brockvilleman said, business is business. I'm single and don't have to worry about those things happening, however, the woman is paying you to do a job correct? Your responsibility at this point is to report the findings to her. Since your job is to investigate other people and report those findings back to the interested party, then that's what you need to do.

 

I know it's hard, but your job is your job!

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

You accepted a job and it would be unethical to not report your findings.

[backrubman 64800]

...Tonight I'm parsing through the results and basically found a fellow hobbyists hobby email, complete with registration to forums, agency mailing lists, direct communication with escorts that I've even seen myself in the past... Opinions?

 

There really isn't enough detail on how the information was collected but what you have discovered and who you have discovered on behalf of doesn't seem possible without what the Courts would consider to be an illegal wiretap.

 

If you are completely within the law and therefore fireproof then you have a moral and ethical obligation to do (and complete) the job you were hired to do otherwise go directly to jail, do not pass go and do not collect $200 :)

[macrin 947]

So I'd suggest, you go to the client and tell her you've discovered a personal link to the gentleman which disqualifies you from taking her as a client and give her her money back.

 

I believe this may be your best route now. Had you not inquired fellow members of cerb as to what to do, that might not have been the case. Now you have doubled your problem since a simple search with relevant details will reveal this thread leading to you. Although I am not insinuating that you have done anything wrong it may bring unwanted criticism to your reputation here in this community.

 

My biggest concern would be, are there going to be young children involved in the repercussions? Protecting the lives and sheltering the innocent from adult situations should be first and foremost. Either way you choose I would make sure children don't get dragged into the details or used as pawns in a lengthy dispute over material things and revenge.

 

It's definitely a tough call. Your personal morals and ethics will have to prevail. If you live true to your beliefs and knowledge of what is best you will make the best decision for everyone involved. You obviously have a lot more in depth knowledge and personal connection then we at cerb have. Someone is bound to get hurt no matter what. That is the unfortunate part.

 

We here are all adults making "adult" decisions knowing what, if any, repercussions could be. Children don't have that luxury. If I am outed I know completely what that means for me and I take the risk with eyes wide open. I have my reasons just like the rest of us.

 

You have a tough decision to make, but in the end, time heals and people move on. Difficulties now help us all make better decisions later. Doesn't make it easier but it does keep it real.

 

Good luck!

[baileydog 9367]

I think the two possible routes are described above ... (a) recuse yourself or (b) provide a full and complete report

 

my thought is that you should have done (a) in the first place, but having taken the job, you have to do (b)

 

I don't think that the question around reporting someone for something you do yourself enters into this at all

[Capital Hunter 18263]

As cristycurves said it well, why did you take this task in the first place when you knew this may be the possible outcome and now you are asking what you should do.

 

My ethics don't let me tell on a fellow (married) hobbyist if I find out about his hobbying but that is just mine. I have come across dancers I have seen long in the public places sometimes alone and sometimes they were with friend/family and I pretented like I don't know them (unless in a few cases that they came forward to say hi). There is certain ethical discretion attached to this hobby which as a community we all have to adhere.

 

On another note, I am no lawyer but if someone is spying on me especially using electronic surveillance on me without my knowledge or approval, I will seek a lawyer's advice to see if I can sue him or her in the court of law (harassment maybe?). It is my understanding that in a democrary that we live in, only the LE and only when it warrants, can do this legally.

 

As for question I think that Dabbler provided a good advice. Return the money. Cheating on wife though may be immoral (I am single and I dont make judgement) but it is not illegal and as long as the wife doesn't know about it no one is hurt (provided he makes all necessarry precautions like everything covered when seeing an SP). If I am married I will never see another woman which explains why I am not already. But that is my ethics.

[canuckhooker 19203]

I also am more concerned on how you got this information. Intercepting someone's e-mail, (which is what you seem to have implied) is, if not illegal, certainly questionable. It could result in civil action, if not criminal.

 

The fact it was a sister-in-law, who to me is more of a third-party than someone directly involved, makes it even more questionable.

 

Return the money, declaring a conflict or personal connection, and walk away.

[Phantom 5310]

Interesting situation. First point: now that you've accepted the job and have the information I truly believe you should fulfill your obligation, otherwise it's almost fraud. You offer to do a service for a fee but do not hold up your end of the bargain. So yes you should give her the info. (And this is coming from a married man who would not want to be your clients brother in law)

 

Having said that, now that you've announced to the cerb board that you take on surveillance jobs and cerb being a goldmine for the type of information you might be looking for, I would think that anyone (married or otherwise in a committed relationship) you pm asking for information would be (and should be) extremely cautious in talking to you as they could very well be your next assignment.

[MNO4 789]

I think you should have sex with the sister in law.

I think you should warn this guy that his sister on law is looking in on him

I think that you should tell the sister in law that you found out that her sister was the one having an affair

I think you should not necessarily admit publicly that you can and do hack into people 's accounts.

I imagine your type of "detective work" does not require you to take an oath to maintain your professional standing. And so do what feels right. Although it seems a little funny. That you were ok to track the guy to see if he was having an affair but are balking on disclosure because of who he is having it with ?

[fredsmith 5240]

As others have said, you took the job you should do what you were contracted to do.

 

The fact that your part time job is electronic surveillance and it never crossed your mind that this might happen makes me question your question. Did you think it might be an interesting topic to discuss or are you really having this dilemma.

[mrgreen760 37785]

Seems like a funny place to come to for advice about an ethical dilemma arising from your side line work which might fall into questionable ethical territory to begin with.

 

Peace

MG

[waterat 20911]

Well you've started a thread that catches our interest since you last posted back in October. Possibly I shouldn't comment as I'm not sure this is 'something nice to say' but I'll justify responding since I believe that it may be a kindness:

 

You should read and heed the comments by Mr. Green, Backrubman, MNO4 and others. The sketchy details of your post may be, if not implausible, certainly indicative of somewhat reckless action/employment.

 

With regards,

 

waterat

[Fresh start 17467]

In my opinion you must of known this possible outcome (having to out a fellow hobbyist) so you do have an obligation to do your job. Although I don't think you have to reveal details about anyone except the person you were hired to surveil. Cause u may not be ruin just one persons life but several especially if this sister inlaw seem so concerned rather than the wife. If she is going to great length to find out what else is she going to do. I just think its safer for the other people involved stayed anonymous and it may if help in your personal situation. You may feel guilty about outing a fellow hobbyist, but you shouldn't of taken the job then.

On another note tell my sister inlaw to mind her own business lol just kidding.

[piano8950 32577]

Do your job. You can go back to the client and tell her you couldn't find anything that'll give her the impression that nothing is amiss. Your duty is to the client, and not the other guy.

 

I think you'd have to go beyond the ethical question at this point. There are some people who do stuff privately that no one else knows about. And your job is to find out what that is. If you deem that alright for you, then I think it's unfair to draw the line just because you are "guilty" of doing the same thing.

[Gabriella Laurence 301887]

Do your job. You can go back to the client and tell her you couldn't find anything that'll give her the impression that nothing is amiss. Your duty is to the client, and not the other guy.

According to your post...

If his duty is to his client and not the other guy then he should be honest with his client and reveal his findings, no? That's what he's getting paid to do; if he says he didn't find anything and lies to his client then he is not doing his job, correct?

[cat 262460]

I'm wondering if you actually turn over the emails you have found? This would mean that private information from a provider (her location etc) will be in the hands of non industry female and could result in harrassment, eviction or worse. Depending on the intentions of the woman, this could have dire unintended consequences for an email only provider like myself or my sisters in our industry. I have been on the receiving end of angry wife phone calls and even visits by them to my incall. I would not wish it on anyone.

 

Our industry carries unnecessary stigma and both provider and hobbyists alike bear the brunt of the negativity. If it were me, I would do everything in my power to protect the other potential victims by eliminating information that would give this woman the power to cause serious harm to them. If that was unavoidable, I would not forward any of this man's hobbying to her. I would eliminate this aspect from the report. I would simply look at it as an anonymous good deed, collect my money and move on. The woman who has hired you obviously is not concerned with ethics or she would have been sitting in front of you with his wife as she hired you or would not have contacted you at all. Her actions are invasively disrespectful to her sister and her sisters marriage.

 

Declining the case would simply allow her to take it to another investigator that would give her the information and perhaps put a provider in harms way. We count on the hobbyist to be discreet and protect our information by not keeping it for prying eyes to find and this man obviously failed to do so. As a hobbyist, you have an opportunity to correct his mistake.

 

Perhaps this is an old school mentality but I was taught that we protect our own, first and foremost. Society as a whole does not respect or protect us. It is up to us to ensure that those of us in our community are kept safe to the best of our ability and when the opportunity arises, we should not violate an unwritten code...

 

cat

[Phaedrus 209521]

From a professional standpoint: you've taken on a contract, and you therefore have a professional duty to fulfill that contract to the best of your ability. If you can't, I suppose a full refund to you your client with whatever explanation was appropriate would be a second-best option. But taking your client's money - any of it - and then lying to her about what you'd found would be seriously unethical.

 

From a personal standpoint, on outing a fellow hobbyist... you knew (or should have known) that was a risk when you took the job on, so you don't get to complain now that the dice have landed that way. How you feel about this is what's going to be the deciding factor in whether you fulfill the contract you've undertaken, or renege on it entirely and refund your client. But if you're not happy about taking responsibility for screwing up someone else's life, you should probably re-think this covert surveillance thing entirely.

 

And a big +1 on the questions over the legality of what you're doing. IANAL, but it sounds highly questionable to me.

[Befuzzled 752]

We count on the hobbyist to be discreet and protect our information by not keeping it for prying eyes to find and this man obviously failed to do so.

 

The original post led me to believe that this information was obtained in a manner which circumvents what I would consider to be a normal duty of care in this regard. Probably best dealt with in another thread but this leaves me wondering what precautions can be taken to avoid this situation. I use a single-purpose separate email address, delete all messages and keep no contact lists but I am inferring from the initial post that targeted email communications can somehow be intercepted. Am I misunderstanding?

[pr27 200]

long time follower. first time posting. business is business, right. even if you have to be shady. you dont want to out this dude but you want to get paid right. lets say the contract was for $100(just a number). confront the guy and tell him that you know what hes doiong and that you have been contracted to look into what hes doing. tell him that for $150 yuo will tell the sister in law that you are clean and you couldnt find anything. also maybe tell him to cool it for a bit or be more dicrete. you get paid, she thinks hes clean. and maybe he learns a lesson from this and tries to stay loyal to his wife. just an opinion. i could be way off though

[igab 5629]

I'm with the crowd who says that you should not go ahead with this contract. I realize you've put some time and effort into it already but I'm thinking that this kinda violates the "Bro Code." I know you don't know this guy personally but he is indulging in the same hobby as you are and I feel it would be hypocritical for you to out him while it is exactly the kind of thing you do yourself.

 

The sister in law is just the kind of nosy individual I really dislike. She should mind her own fucking business IMHO. I dislike snooping and think that what you're doing is kind of questionable anyway....just sayin.

[Barnsworth 268]

My two cents worth:

 

(And yes, I can still use pennies at least for a little while yet :P)

 

My first question is, do you have a Private Investigators license for your province? If not, you may have broken several laws without knowing about it. If you do, I assume you followed all proper procedures.

 

The code of honor between hobbyists only extends as far as we ourselves are willing to make ourselves adhere to it. I would never 'out' another hobbyist or SP, but I cannot expect every other hobbyist to do the same. (I do expect an SP to be discreet, unless she gives some indication otherwise) You have to ask yourself if the 'Code' of the hobbyist in you supersedes your ethics as a Private Investigator.