Ethics - Outing a fellow hobbyist

[Cowboy kenny 50799]

Forget about outing a fellow hobbiest, you've just outtted yourself here and it's not likely that anyone will want to share private details regarding anything of any intimate matter with sps, mas or even girlfriends here knowing that someday it may be used against them.

 

If you've had any professional training as an investigator you might want to review your textbooks and notes about ethics of the trade, ethics regarding responsibility to the client and ethics of best practices when investigating and accessing information. That's where you'll find your answer.

[Guest a**4*]

I think you should not go through with it we are hobbist here and information between a client and S.P. is private.The sister in law should mine her own bussiness with this information is she planning on blackmailing him,harassing the S.P.or others on that information think before you stir the hornet nest would you want another hobbist to do that to you the answer is no, so do not do this to him or others in this hobby be respectful to the cerb comminuity and there privicy

[roamingguy 300292]

Well a couple issues. You as someone who partakes in this lifestyle undertook a contract which could potentially out someone else who partakes in this lifestyle. To me, if I was in your shoes, I would have declined the contract right there. If this concern happened as your surveillance started, you should have ceased the investigation. And return all money to the former client. She shouldn't pay for services she never got, there are ethics concerning dealing with your clients/ex-clients too.

As for warning him, you wouldn't have known unless hired to investigate to begin with. If this guy is so indiscrete to leave a trail of proverbial breadcrumbs, on one hand he knows the risks. But on the other hand, there are potential innocent victims here too, the companions that this guy sees. They shouldn't run the risk of being contacted by an angry wife because of the husband's indiscretion or your surveillance of him. So only considering the ladies here, tell him he is suspected by his sister in law of cheating so he can be more discrete.

Not only is this guy at risk of being exposed, the companions he sees may incur unfairly the wrath of a angry wife. Your client, hired you on the belief you would perform the services requested. If you chose to not pursue the investigation you shouldn't accept any money, imho it would be akin to fraudulently obtaining it, she is paying for services she never received.

What you choose to do I don't know, but from posting this you are having a moral quandry here. My advice, cancel your contract, return the money...ALL OF IT and warn the guy only so he can clean up his breadcrumbs. You have to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day

RG

[Kubrickfan 12836]

Forget about outing a fellow hobbiest, you've just outtted yourself here and it's not likely that anyone will want to share private details regarding anything of any intimate matter with sps, mas or even girlfriends here knowing that someday it may be used against them.

 

If you've had any professional training as an investigator you might want to review your textbooks and notes about ethics of the trade, ethics regarding responsibility to the client and ethics of best practices when investigating and accessing information. That's where you'll find your answer.

 

There's a bunch of things in the OP's original post that give me the weebie-geebies: 1) he seems to be saying he found an e-mail account, so I assume he located the password and then opened the e-mail account ... at least here in the States I'm pretty sure that's illegal now; 2) that the OP took the work on given that he is also "partaking," so to speak (on this point, in fairness, he deserves some credit for coming here and seeking an opinion, and 3) CK's point above ... I dont think he is going to get much "love" from other cerb members now that they know what he does.

 

Last, if he is digging around here looking for information (for instance, a posting search) is this even a proper use of cerb. I dont see anything specifcally in the rules, but there probably should be.

 

Anyways, I dont post a lot these days but this topic definitely got my attention.

[roamingguy 300292]

long time follower. first time posting. business is business, right. even if you have to be shady. you dont want to out this dude but you want to get paid right. lets say the contract was for $100(just a number). confront the guy and tell him that you know what hes doiong and that you have been contracted to look into what hes doing. tell him that for $150 yuo will tell the sister in law that you are clean and you couldnt find anything. also maybe tell him to cool it for a bit or be more dicrete. you get paid, she thinks hes clean. and maybe he learns a lesson from this and tries to stay loyal to his wife. just an opinion. i could be way off though

 

Ethics is a matter of doing what is right. Money doesn't factor into it in this case IMHO. What you are suggesting is nothing less than extortion, irrespective of how it is ratonalized. And it isn't just wrong, it compounds and complicates what is already an ethical dilemma for this guy.

Just my two cents

RG

[VedaSloan 119179]

A job's a job. The sister-in-law paid you to do that job. Sucks to be the other dude, but maybe that'll teach him to be more discreet about his extracurricular pursuits. You can't protect everyone. I can understand empathizing, but at the end of the day--this IS your job.

[roamingguy 300292]

Just a quick comment, sort of made it earlier. A few have posted the argument a job is a job. Generally speaking yes I would agree. But here there are potential innocent victims. Has anyone considered the wrath a SP could incur once the wife finds out (I'm not sure how much is known in this investigation, like the names of the SP's he has seen) Is it right that the SP's should have to deal with a angry wife because of a client's indiscretion and another guy's investigation at the behest of a sister-in-law

The ladies we all see provide wonderful companionship and don't deserve nor did they contract for in any way shape or form any fallout from one of their clients marital indiscretions.

Just saying that's all

RG

[VedaSloan 119179]

Just a quick comment, sort of made it earlier. A few have posted the argument a job is a job. Generally speaking yes I would agree. But here there are potential innocent victims. Has anyone considered the wrath a SP could incur once the wife finds out (I'm not sure how much is known in this investigation, like the names of the SP's he has seen) Is it right that the SP's should have to deal with a angry wife because of a client's indiscretion and another guy's investigation at the behest of a sister-in-law

The ladies we all see provide wonderful companionship and don't deserve nor did they contract for in any way shape or form any fallout from one of their clients marital indiscretions.

Just saying that's all

RG

 

One has to hope that the wife would realize the guilty party in all of this is her husband, not the SP(s) in question. We all know angry wives happen, but unfortunately, in this scenario, he was contracted for a specific job. He either does the job or he refunds the money. Those are his only two options.

[Guest C*****tte]

I appreciate the kind thought that we are innocent and need protecting from the fallout, but this fallout is to be expected. I would say nearly all of us have had an angry wife contact us with regards to their husband's activities and they found out about his activities on their own. Usually they blame us in some way and tell us to stay away. Dealing with this is part of the job at one point or another. Not enjoyable but to be expected.

 

-

 

Best of luck to the OP. Glad this is not my dilemma.

[Guest L**gh M****e]

I don't need to read anyone's post, just the original, to say this:

 

Code of Ethics: (Private Investigations) I shall keep myself knowledgeable of the laws pertaining to the profession and to all other phases of public and private law enforcemcent agencies, and to abide by those laws explicitly at all times.

 

I will maintain constant mindfulness that when I am on a case I am essentially a direct representative, and external and specialized agent of my client. My conduct will always be honorable and professional so as not to reflect in a negative way upon the client..

 

My reports, of progress will always be made to my client and with the content and regularity that has been agreed upon.

 

I will always respect the wishes of my client except in serious criminal findings, the nature of which I am legally bound to disclose to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

 

I will diligently pursue each and every assignment that I accept with interest and enthusiasm until a final and acceptable conclusion can be drawn to the mutual satisfaction of my client and myself.

 

I know that no one is more professionally important to me that my client. I will serve my client with honesty, integrity, loyalty and dispatch with legally proper and thoroughly dedicated, proficient and professional demeanor.....

 

I will, at all times, attempt to either serve a client to the best of my own capabilities or I will refer him to someone known to me to be more capable than myself.

 

Suggestion: Keep it confidential period!

[Philander39 3705]

This has been an interesting discussion. As I read the various posts, I kept swinging back and forth into what to do.

 

Right now, I would say that you were paid for a job and you should fulfill your obligations to complete that job. As much as I hate the idea of "outing" a hobbiest, especially to a snoopy sister-in-law, he did leave enough evidence that a person was able to figure out what he was doing. I am assuming that whatever actions you took were legal. If that is the case then you should complete the job.

 

The main reason I think you should complete the job is that you also have the ability to limit the damage to the SPs involved. I'm not sure how your contract was written up but you definitely would be able to confirm that your "target" was seeing SPs but you probably don't need to provide the SPs contact information, location of meetings, etc. You have to take on the job of educating the nosy sister-in-law that although her belief that her brother-in-law is stepping out on her sister is correct it doesn't mean he was doing anything illegal. More importantly the SPs that he was seeing were not doing anything illegal.

 

You can explain your reason further by noting that many wives who are in these type of situation tend to blame the women involved and not their husbands. Since the SPs were not doing anything illegal nor are they responsible for the brother-in-laws indiscretions, you cannot in good conscience pass along the SP contact information.

 

If you client doesn't like the fact that you won't pass along the SP contact information then you know that the SPs were going to be taking the brunt of the shit-storm that was coming. If that is the case, give back a portion of your client's money.

[Jabba 18389]

Here's an interesting situation. I take occasional contracts on the side for various electronic surveillance (corporate background checks, suspicious wives, etc)

 

In this case an interested party (sister-in-law) suspected a man of straying from his marriage and paid a somewhat substantial amount of money to know for sure.

 

Spent quite a bit of my spare time setting this up and let the tools of the trade do their thing. Tonight I'm parsing through the results and basically found a fellow hobbyists hobby email, complete with registration to forums, agency mailing lists, direct communication with escorts that I've even seen myself in the past...

 

On the one hand I dont get paid if I come back empty handed, (well, not paid as much), on the other hand I dont feel right outing someone for something I am guilty of myself. Not sure if what the right thing to do is here from a professional and personal standpoint.

 

Opinions?

 

Don't want to sound harsh here. I know it's gotta be difficult when dealing with people's lives. I'm thinking you have to come to terms with the job and I think you have to ignore your own personal lifestyle & dispositions.

 

Every job has it's ethical standards; some are statutory, industry monitored & others you are free to struggle with at your own convenience. Can you choose to ignore, alter or apply these standards according to your own conscience? Are you doing due diligence to your client?

 

Is there a part of your investigation that makes you believe something could be traced back to you? Is this going to be an on-going concern?

 

If you choose to not reveal all the information you disclose to your client, how are you going to pro-rate any refund? How are going to explain any refund to your client?

[rogue1 800]

YUK.. Nazis & SS "just doing their job". Is there not a higer morality and responsibility here?

[BootyLoving 2441]

March on soldier, take him down. I paid you, and I don't care if you think it's wrong. Since I paid you, you have forgone you right to reason and judgement. Notice I didn't even bring up ethics? If I'm here, I've thrown that out the window. But wait ... What's that? Others will get hurt? Their world would shatter and that of their children? Wooh. SP that the two of you seen will be outted too? Wooh. You've been given too much intel soldier. After you've done you job, here's another $500 and go shoot yourself cause your sister in law's sister just committed suicide.

 

Enjoy the rest of your life drinking away your guilt.

 

 

Watch out who you unintentionally hurt. You've put yourself in a very sensitive role which can cause tremendous harm. That's why I exited civil engineering. I made too many minor calculation all errors that I couldn't live with. Even though all my other marks were great enough for me to graduate. I can't live with myself if my bridge or tower eventually collapsed because I made a mistake. Lots of money there, but I sleep better here.

[Shylock99 1609]

I bet you every cop who's pulled someone over for speeding has been guilty of the same offender when off-duty. Business is business.

[Phantom 5310]

To everyone saying he should consider the ethics about outing someone before giving the information, he's past that point. HE should have considered them before accepting a job to out someone. Whether it was for being with an SP or another woman, all the possible harassment and "bro code" stuff are the same. In my opinion (and what seems to be a majority) he should NOT have taken the job (or any similar) in the first place.

 

but..... (I bet you knew this was coming) HE TOOK the job. Outing someone is not illegal (I wont go into how he got the information, At this point it it is in possession and as far as everyone jumping on the illegal bandwagon, coming from a site with a fair amount of incalls I find that hypocritical. (We can ignore the laws we choose but he can't? Jump on the ethics of it, which seems to be the bigger issue here, not the illegality) So we're down to a few choices:

 

1. Return the money, Don't tell the guy: If you do this quit the job. Never take another. You're agreeing it is wrong to out someone. Acceptable morally by many here but many agree she will hire another. End result guy probably gets outed.

 

2. Return the money and warn the guy: If you do this quit the job. Never take another. You're agreeing it is wrong to out someone. Acceptable morally by many here but many agree she will hire another. End result guy less likely to get outed, but who knows how his relationship with sister in law turns out.

 

3. Return partial amount. Give only information that he cheated and no specifics. (I don't get this one. If the contract says you have to give information on who he is with then you need to give that information and get all the money or not give any info and return the money saying you cant fulfill the contract. If the contract does not require the other persons info then don't give it and take all the money.

 

4. Give all the information you have and get paid to do the job you accepted. You made your bed now sleep in it. If you choose this, you're work ethic is good, your bro code is broken (Which it already was once you accepted the job anyway), he's outed and please don't show your face here ever again. Cause nobody will trust you. (Well I think that line has already been crossed and although I can't ask you to leave, I'm sure you will not get much warm hugs from many here) Discretion is key to this industry.

 

So in my mind the question is do you want to keep doing your investigative work. If yes, you have to give her the info. If you are willing to quit, this would be a good one to reject and end that side job of yours.

[mister_crufty 4891]

I think if you're finding this ethically challenging you're in the wrong line of work. You have to know that if you're an investigator, sometimes you're going to find things that harm people. Part of the job. This case is different to you because it strikes to the heart of your own hobby but it's really no different than investigating someone for fraud or having a regular girlfriend on the side.

 

If you find yourself conflicted, perhaps you should do something that won't put you in that position. I'm sure there are many others more ruthless than you willing to step in and take your place.

 

If I were a cop, I'd expect to have to bust some heads some times. If I were a soldier, I'd expect to have to shoot people some times. If I were a doctor I'd expect to accidentally kill people some times.

 

You can't just take the Nuremberg defence. Either you decide to hurt people or you don't. If you do, then own it. Nobody is forcing you.

[Phantom 5310]

Oh and as for asking the guy for money. That's not an option. That's extortion. And as far as ethics goes, you're breaking the bro code and the work ethics with that one so I certainly do not consider that even remotely close to being an option.

[BootyLoving 2441]

What the heck is this "bro code" everyone speaks of? I'm nobody's bro here. At least I hope my bros aren't on here. Us dicking the same women ...

 

Anyways, take your investigation further, do some weighing of what you are comfortable with, and be smart about it. This business is about doing things behind people's back. Information is still power. You may choose to share all or just some. Who would know? And who can't fault you for not knowing everything? Collect your money, and move on. Ethics? I scoff on ethics. It's a made up concept to make everyone else thinks that there is some sort of order to their lives. Your client has no ethics. She went to you. Your target has no ethics, he's doing the same girl your doing. You've got no ethics, your screwing the same girl he's screwing for money. The call girl your both taking turns on has no ethics, she's screwing for cash. None of us has ethics, where committing genocide cause we're not actually procreating and overriding our own nature to spread our seeds by wearing condoms.

 

 

There you go, black and white. Really, ethics? It's all relative to the time in which we live and what is currently socially acceptable. We are merely observing someone else's belief in civility. In a few months, doing escorts in exchange for money will be legal. And one day, divorce settlement would be measure by how hot the girl is, and what she would have or could have made if she was escorting instead of being with you. A measurable standard.

[backrubman 64800]

... In a few months, doing escorts in exchange for money will be legal....

 

You mean it isn't legal now? You must be an American (or watch too much American TV), it is not now and never has been illegal in Canada.

 

Of course warrant-less searches of someone else's computer (without the Court's permission) or illegal wire tapping or surreptitious video surveillance is illegal.

[mister_crufty 4891]

Interesting viewpoint but while I feel that much of ethics is, as you say, relative, there are also common threads within all human cultures.

 

As an example, murder is almost universally condemned in all human cultures. The definition of what constitutes murder is highly variable but it always exists.

 

Incest taboos exist in every culture. This may be 'ethics' or 'evolutionary survival' but I would argue they are almost the same. Our survival in a tribe is enhanced by empathy, altruism and support for other tribe members. Over time, our tribes have expanded from a few people in your physical vicinity to friends the world over but the concept is the same.

 

So I don't think it's just "do onto others before they do you." I think we should all aspire to, at minimum, do no harm.

 

What the heck is this "bro code" everyone speaks of? I'm nobody's bro here. At least I hope my bros aren't on here. Us dicking the same women ...

 

Anyways, take your investigation further, do some weighing of what you are comfortable with, and be smart about it. This business is about doing things behind people's back. Information is still power. You may choose to share all or just some. Who would know? And who can't fault you for not knowing everything? Collect your money, and move on. Ethics? I scoff on ethics. It's a made up concept to make everyone else thinks that there is some sort of order to their lives. Your client has no ethics. She went to you. Your target has no ethics, he's doing the same girl your doing. You've got no ethics, your screwing the same girl he's screwing for money. The call girl your both taking turns on has no ethics, she's screwing for cash. None of us has ethics, where committing genocide cause we're not actually procreating and overriding our own nature to spread our seeds by wearing condoms.

 

 

There you go, black and white. Really, ethics? It's all relative to the time in which we live and what is currently socially acceptable. We are merely observing someone else's belief in civility. In a few months, doing escorts in exchange for money will be legal. And one day, divorce settlement would be measure by how hot the girl is, and what she would have or could have made if she was escorting instead of being with you. A measurable standard.

[Guest d**eye***y]

If you are a PI, than you know most of your biz consists of cheating spouse cases. This board is pretty popular, so the chance of them being on here or seeing someone you know (SP) was almost 100%. You probably thought of that the minute the case came to you.

Does the bro code come into affect here? How well do you know him?

Also, there are some who, believe it or not, come to this board and never go through with ever visiting an SP or MP. They are curious, chicken out...etc etc. IMO the only evidence is 'hard' evidence, photos....etc etc. If you had an email conversation between him and a provider....you have no idea if he got to her door and turned around. Thus...besides ethics, there is some grey areas, and evidence.

Misty crufty said it best...maybe this line of work isnt suited for you if you are questioning this.

[piano8950 32577]

You can go back to the client and tell her you couldn't find anything that'll give her the impression that nothing is amiss. Your duty is to the client, and not the other guy.

 

 

According to your post...

If his duty is to his client and not the other guy then he should be honest with his client and reveal his findings, no? That's what he's getting paid to do; if he says he didn't find anything and lies to his client then he is not doing his job, correct?

 

Let me rephrase, reading that over I can see how people would get the wrong idea of what I said.

 

I meant that the OP could go to the client, say everything is okay. But in doing that, it would give the absolutely false impression that the client is reading too much into nothing. And doing so, he'd be doing a disservice to his client, perhaps leading her to an incorrect conclusion.

[Dipper 1033]

Well, you were looking for opinions, you got plenty.

 

My opinion is: don`t quit your day job.

[waterat 20911]

Well I just attempted to access theoldguy's profile - wanted to confirm the earlier threads he had started... and now I can only either send him a pm or add him to my buddy list.... not going to happen.

 

I was too subtle with my earlier post. Whenever I see a question or opiniion expressed I have trained myself to consider the source.

 

theoldguy has more drama in his life (maybe) than a daytime SO (that's soap opera not significant other - nor a miss-typing of SP).

 

In fact I think there is more drama than Bilbo and the Dwarves faced when they were captured by the Trolls..... if I'm not being too subtle.... again!!!