Responsibility

[CristyCurves 169032]

Would you agree that we all have a responsibility to take care of ourselves, our children, our pets, our planet. I mean without it where would we live?

Well then why do some feel it's not their resposibility to support themselves-educating themselves or working so they can be independent. You know those who think the welfare and unemployment systems were set up to provide them with a supplemental income or a break because they find it to hard to bust their asses working everyday like everyone else. Those who think they deserve it or are owed it. These systems were set up for those who through no fault of their own fall on dire straights/hard times and need a temporary helping hand until they get back on their feet. I mean why as a taxpayer should I pay to heat someones home, pay their rent, feed their children when they are as capable and have as many opportunities as I? THINK- If you are going to have unprotected sex and you have no education/no income, there is a possibility that you may become pregnant. This means you need the means to raise YOUR child or children. It shouldn't mean because you've been irresponsible others should have to pay a price. I'm not talking about mistakes, horrible situations like rape,ect. I'm talking about those who are simply and intentionally irresponsible.THINK-and when you milk the systems-working/supplementing your income with unemployment/welfare while making a decent living, thats stealing and it affects all of us and isn't fair to those who are truly in need. No one is owed a living!

Why do some search for a free pet then when they get it think it isn't their responsibilty to spay and neuter it, allow it to roam freely and populate irresponsibilty. Adding to the already exploding pet population. In the USA alone more than 8 million strays come into shelters yearly. More then half of them are euthanized simply because there is no place for them-WHY? Owning a pet is not a right it's a privilge so when you get one take care of it! For it's life!

Why do some feel it's their neighbours, teachers, everyone elses responsibilty but their own to rear and raise their children. Yes parenting is hard but it's your job! Help is available but the responsibilty lies with you to make sure your child is happy, healthy,well behaved, educated and provided with food and shelter.

Why are some not bothering to recycle and compost. This I will never understand. It angers me even more when those with kids neglect doing this as they should have a more vested interest in the health of the planet. They have someone to leave it to! Yes life is busy but it only takes a minute to separate food waste, plastics, glass, papers. Come on!!

Why do some who suck on cigarettes, eat bad food, drink excessivley-just live an unhealhty lifestyle think it's not their fault they became sick. In Canada we are lucky your hospital visit or doctor visit will not directly come out of your pocket but our system is strained so why not do our part to make sure we don't needlessly burden it.

We all make mistakes from time to time and possibly may need help too. But to have the attitude that you don't care because you are or have been irresponsible I just don't understand. I mean WHY?

[antlerman 17064]

Nice rant.... I love it and agree with you

Posted via Mobile Device

[EmilyRushton 253369]

Great post...and topic....

 

I agree wholeheartedly with what you have to say. i relocated almost 2 years ago to a city where 65% of people are on social assistance and they live for cheque day. There is a newspaper full of decent jobs (I know as I have looked). I dont understand it no matter how I try to process the train of thought that these people have. One of the main reasons this is such a trend, is that they are 2nd or 3rd generation social assistance receivers. They figure if they were raised ok on it, why not keep it up. Plus they see $$$ when they find out they get more money a month for each child they have. Goverment assistance is there for a short term fix, not as a lifestyle. It REALLY sickens me. In my building I am the ONLY person not on assistance, yet some of the other tenants live a more extravagant lifestyle than I do.....How is that possible?

 

I was in the bank at home last week, I was the ONLY person in line not cashing a government cheque.

 

I was raised to always want better for myself and my family, and I just could not subject myself to ever take a handout from the government day in and day out for the remainder of my life. After seeing how the other half lives for the last almost 2 years it sickens me.

 

The fact that people are content with just getting by and not wanting better for themselves is a big part of the downward spiral.

 

Better yet, how about the homeless people with pets? WTF you cant care for yourself so you decide to make an animals life miserable too?

[cat 262460]

It's something I've never understood and I've learned that asking "Why do people ________?" questions is a waste of my time and energy. I leave answering the unanswerable for those who must have a better understanding than I about the workings of the human mind. The only thing I allow myself to get frustrated about is when I DROP THE BALL. It's the only thing I truly have control over.

 

As for the homeless owning dogs, I feel very differently than Emily. The most balanced and stable dogs I've ever met belonged to the homeless. Dogs don't need fancy coats or fancy food. They are not status symbols or a child. They need a pack, they need to move, they need to know what their leader expects of them and they need to know their leader will provide. Hunger isn't a prevailing concern for dogs, instinctively they need to be hungry for most of the day. I've seen homeless people feed their dogs before they eat which is a level of committment that most pet owners don't have. They don't need a consistently warm environment, they are designed to live outside. They don't need a sterile environment, they have an admirable immunity built in. They don't need store bought toys unless they are bored which homeless dogs never are. Compared to the city dog owners I have met, I would give a dog to a homeless person before the typical pet owner, myself included...

 

cat

[fredsmith 5240]

Great post...and topic....

 

I agree wholeheartedly with what you have to say. i relocated almost 2 years ago to a city where 65% of people are on social assistance and they live for cheque day.

 

I would like to know:

 

1.) Where do you get your statistics?

2.) What made you move to a community you clearly have disdain for?

 

In my building I am the ONLY person not on assistance, yet some of the other tenants live a more extravagant lifestyle than I do.....How is that possible?

 

 

You CANNOT live an etravagant lifestyle on social assistance. I don't know where you are getting your information but you are not being responsible by spreading so much misinformation in your post.

[mister_crufty 4891]

I guess that's a little off-topic but the segue was started above.

 

WRT responsibility, the older I get, the less equipped I feel to judge anyone else. I don't know what someones life has been like, what tools they have at their disposal, what their upbringing has been.

 

The argument can be applied to many things. "You're fat, why don't you just lose weight." "You're poor, why don't you make more money?" "You're homeless, why don't you get a job?"

 

I think that a lot of us are born on third base thinking we've hit a triple. If we grew up in a shitty third world country, malnourished and under-educated, would we be successful? Is there something inherently better, more noble, more complete in us than in other humans? Or are we just more advantaged?

 

We grew up with health care, education, hopefully parents who gave a shit, public infrastructure, clean water, enough food, etc. Things that took generations to build by our ancestors.

 

There is a third world hidden in the first world. It's in native reserves, poor drug infested neighborhoods, abusive homes. We just don't see it as clearly.

 

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

- Sir Isaac Newton

[mrrnice2 157005]

Responsibility both to self and to society is not a simple subject and certainly not one with a clear black and white to it.

 

I believe in full personal responsibility for ones actions. That however is easy for me to do because of my circumstances. It can be argued that I worked to put myself in this position that allows me to assume full responsibility. It helped to have come from an upbringing where responsibility was taught, education was valued, moral beliefs were ingrained and personal values were instilled.

 

Not everyone has had that opportunity. Does that give carte blanche for people to milk the system? No, but it does mean that many people do require and should have access to a system that will help them get back on their feet, train them as necessary, and yes, feed and clothe them when it is required. We have a social network in this country that is critical, valued and important. I would argue that it does not go far enough.

 

I live in Canada's smallest province where the vast majority of people, outside of government employment, work in seasonal employment. Fishing, farming and tourism are the staples. There is no stable industry, there are no major manufacturers, there are few places where a sustainable wage is available. Fact of life for PEI. I played on many a ball team and hockey team with guys where I was the only person who knew with certainty that I would have a pay check and what the amount would be.

 

The provinces solution is to create and fund short term minimum wage twenty week jobs for which the sole purpose is to get the employee enough weeks to qualify them for federal government EI. The EI kicks in, and when expired the province gives another twenty week work experience. The governments are creating the cycle rather than investing in meaningful solutions.

 

I believe with all of my heart that most people want to work and when given opportunity will do so. My last year of work before retiring from the education system a full twenty percent of the families in my school had a parent that commuted to Alberta to work. Twenty percent, so it really irks me when I hear about Islanders and Maritimers in general seeking out the dole.

 

I suspect that I am in the minority with these opinions however it is clear that what is happening now in this country is not a solution but merely a temporary band aid solution that will keep people from starving to death. We have a government that encourages free trade agreements with countries that do not pay workers a fair wage so that the multinationals can make obscene profits for the 1% and therefore not employ Canadians at a wage that will provide an income that allows one to support themselves and a family.

 

EI and social assistance payments do NOT provide adequate funds for living at anything other than below the poverty line. Yes it is government money from you and I but it is not an extravagance or an expenditure that I begrudge.

 

There but for the grace of God go I. My rant for the day!

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

First, we should have sympathy for those less fortunate. I can be too sensitive for my own financial wellbeing which has cost me unpaid loans I've made, etc. However, I agree with Emily that a certain percentage of the population feels they are entitled to lifelong assistance. Is that reasonable? Is it helpful in the long run?

 

Some people work 2 jobs to provide a better life and others don't want to work for whatever reason and apply for public assistance . How much is just being lazy, I don't know. In some cases mental health/abusive childhoods can put you at a serious disadvantage and as a person in a society I want to help those less fortunate. Most complaints about welfare and the like originate when we feel our hard earned tax dollars are needlessly wasted. The world has lots of "free riders" that can abuse a good idea such as temporary government assistance meant for people who get knocked down. However, when people and their children and their children are on it though, is that helpful or harmful?

 

Government should try and eliminate obvious abuse. In the meantime, I'm happy just paying my 50% tax rate and thanking my lucky stars I had good parents and some good luck.

[renegade 11027]

The trend these day,s successfully pushed and politicized particularly by obama and the left to Vilify and Target the so-called 1% 3% or even top 5% of earners is championed mostly by the vast majority of wage earners who receive a regular cheque paid vacation time and usually a pension to boot. Those that have never worked on commissions or "donations" as the vast majority of sp,s do here. They take little or no risk and most have never owned a business or hired employees or put their life savings on the table,Yet feel a moral duty to assume those who have somehow achieved success don,t do or pay their fair share in society and that is patently untrue. There will always be a portion of society that requires assistance for one reason or another and we should do our best to help them improve their situation, but there is a growing segment of our population that want more than they deserve or earn and Greece is a prime example of that.

 

The theory of Socialism at its root is a wonderful theory. The idea that everyone in a society thrives, and that poverty becomes a thing of the past through collective hard work and compassion. What is wrong with this idea that so many "progressive" thinkers have adopted as their life's ambition...simple, it does not work. The reason that the theory of Socialism does not work is complex, but it can be made simple for the purpose of this conversation, in short, it is a theory. The problem with a theory, or a concept, or an idea for that matter, is that they all look great on paper, in lab conditions, but when you try to enact them in the real world, the ugly truth about most theories begins to show. For Socialism to work, every member of a society must pull their own weight. Take a look around, does that seem possible to you, as an intelligent life form? The truth is that Socialists are idealistic, and if they truly believe that Socialism will work in a real society, they are also naive. It has been proven that water will follow the path of least resistance, and in many ways, humans are like water. If you constantly give a person sustenance without requiring them to work for that sustenance, they will never work. The old adage, give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, teach him to fish, he will eat for a lifetime is very pertinent to this discussion. If the government constantly gives men fish, why would they buy their own pole and bait a hook? The answer, they will not. Socialism will never work for the same reason that capitalism makes some people rich. In a capitalist market, those who work the hardest gain the most spoils. Removing the incentive for these hard workers to work, by redistributing their spoils, does nothing more than create mass poverty, it does not eliminate poverty. Look around, has socialism ever been successful? Were the bread lines of the Soviet Union a picture of success? One of the best examples i,ve ever read about was a Professor at a prominent U.S college that had never failed a student in his class and to show his students how social policy can effect outcomes he decided to have his students write three exams over three weeks and he would average their scores, after the first exam the exceptional students studied hard and everyone averaged a B grade, during the next exam the hard working students admitted after that they studied less because they knew the grades were going to be averaged and everyone passed with a c grade. For the third exam the average grade was an f- This life is a survival of the fittest, it is human nature, and as long as humans are involved in the equation, Socialism will never work, no matter how wonderful equality for all seems.

[mister_crufty 4891]

I believe it's a mistake to conflate socialism and communism. We enjoy many forms of socialism in this country.

 

"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members ; the last, the least, the littlest."

-Cardinal Roger Mahony

 

Broken states like Somalia are examples of places where power and money rule and all are left to their own devices. We are a rich society. I don't begrudge anyone the basics of life. Providing essentials to prevent those less fortunate from starving or dying of easily curable diseases doesn't disincent the majority of people from working hard. It's just basic human decency to want to take care of those in need.

 

I have pity for the homeless and sick. I don't want to see anyone suffer. I recognize that some 'take advantage' of my good will but it's a price I'm willing to pay to live in a society where all have a chance. If you're successful in our society it's because you took advantage of many forms of public infrastructure like roads, schools, hospitals, water and electricity.

 

As Obama said, "You didn't build this." So why would you then turn and begrudge others the same advantages that you had? Seems selfish.

[EmilyRushton 253369]

I would like to know:

 

1.) Where do you get your statistics? Fro

2.) What made you move to a community you clearly have disdain for?

 

 

 

You CANNOT live an extravagant lifestyle on social assistance. I don't know where you are getting your information but you are not being responsible by spreading so much misinformation in your post.

 

I am not spreading misfortune, but the sole reality of what I have noticed on a day to day basis when I am home. As well as from talking to the local government agency on how I can help work towards any small thing I can do to help work with this problem. It is easy to turn a blind eye when you dont live next to it. When you visit a place you are blinded by vacation mode and not reality, once it is part of day to day life you embrace it.

 

The Teen pregnancy rates in NB jumped 40% since 2005, (the rest of the maritimes, excluding PEI is not far behind) local studies show majority of these girls have no where to go, so where do you think they are getting the means to live? Add this to the already high rate of people already on assistance, and this mess keeps getting bigger. 1 in 10 children in NB are living below the poverty line, those are the ones that deserve the assistance.

 

Unless you live in the GTA or another LARGE city - you would be surprised of the lifestyle that others live off of it. I love where I live, just dont really enjoy some of the walks of life on my street (lots of people feel this way about their neighbours) I moved for a more peaceful way of life, as living in the GTA makes one crazy. I am a firm believer of turning lemons into lemonade and while I disagree with the ease that one can get Government money to live on, I wont let that bring me down. I am fortunate to live in one of the most historical and architecturally beautiful cities in canada, and I plan to fully make the most of it. I am all for bettering the community and fully plan to help in some way, no matter how small.

 

If your parents are on welfare and raise you to know no different better, you more than likely will be on it as well.. If you have a child and see that you get more money for more babies as well as subsidized housing and free childcare you would probably take it too. At the end of the day, you can then afford to live a VERY extravagant lifestyle all on the government. If you have money for booze and expensive clothing while on government assistance, the guidelines into which one needs to qualify in order to get it, is too low.

[Guest s******ecan****]

The trend these day,s successfully pushed and politicized particularly by obama and the left to Vilify and Target the so-called 1% 3% or even top 5% of earners is championed mostly by the vast majority of wage earners who receive a regular cheque paid vacation time and usually a pension to boot.

 

 

A complete mis-characterization of Obama's approach. He has never villified them, all he has asked is those in these brackets pay taxes at the levels they did during the Clinton years. Those rates are much lower than the rates during the Reagan administration.

 

Seeking a solution that does something to reduce the ever growing disparity between the mega rich and everyone else only serves to return balance and stability to society which in the end serves the interest of the 1-3% as well.

 

One of the big reasons we here in Canada have it so good is that we haven't gone down the road of extreme homage to taxcuts for the wealthy as the Americans have over the last 20 years.

 

The only people who talk about socialism now are the far right who constantly haul it out as a bogeyman. No one else is calling for it.

[mrrnice2 157005]

The trend these day,s successfully pushed and politicized particularly by obama and the left to Vilify and Target the so-called 1% 3% or even top 5% of earners is championed mostly by the vast majority of wage earners who receive a regular cheque paid vacation time and usually a pension to boot. Those that have never worked on commissions or "donations" as the vast majority of sp,s do here. They take little or no risk and most have never owned a business or hired employees or put their life savings on the table,Yet feel a moral duty to assume those who have somehow achieved success don,t do or pay their fair share in society and that is patently untrue. There will always be a portion of society that requires assistance for one reason or another and we should do our best to help them improve their situation, but there is a growing segment of our population that want more than they deserve or earn and Greece is a prime example of that.

 

The theory of Socialism at its root is a wonderful theory. The idea that everyone in a society thrives, and that poverty becomes a thing of the past through collective hard work and compassion. What is wrong with this idea that so many "progressive" thinkers have adopted as their life's ambition...simple, it does not work. The reason that the theory of Socialism does not work is complex, but it can be made simple for the purpose of this conversation, in short, it is a theory. The problem with a theory, or a concept, or an idea for that matter, is that they all look great on paper, in lab conditions, but when you try to enact them in the real world, the ugly truth about most theories begins to show. For Socialism to work, every member of a society must pull their own weight. Take a look around, does that seem possible to you, as an intelligent life form? The truth is that Socialists are idealistic, and if they truly believe that Socialism will work in a real society, they are also naive. It has been proven that water will follow the path of least resistance, and in many ways, humans are like water. If you constantly give a person sustenance without requiring them to work for that sustenance, they will never work. The old adage, give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, teach him to fish, he will eat for a lifetime is very pertinent to this discussion. If the government constantly gives men fish, why would they buy their own pole and bait a hook? The answer, they will not. Socialism will never work for the same reason that capitalism makes some people rich. In a capitalist market, those who work the hardest gain the most spoils. Removing the incentive for these hard workers to work, by redistributing their spoils, does nothing more than create mass poverty, it does not eliminate poverty. Look around, has socialism ever been successful? Were the bread lines of the Soviet Union a picture of success? One of the best examples i,ve ever read about was a Professor at a prominent U.S college that had never failed a student in his class and to show his students how social policy can effect outcomes he decided to have his students write three exams over three weeks and he would average their scores, after the first exam the exceptional students studied hard and everyone averaged a B grade, during the next exam the hard working students admitted after that they studied less because they knew the grades were going to be averaged and everyone passed with a c grade. For the third exam the average grade was an f- This life is a survival of the fittest, it is human nature, and as long as humans are involved in the equation, Socialism will never work, no matter how wonderful equality for all seems.

 

Great post Renegade and despite what I wrote earlier, which I stand by, I will not dispute much of what you have written here.

 

Socialism has not worked as you have well pointed out with excellent examples and the reason that it did not work you have very accurately stated I believe.

 

The one area that I do feel that I cannot agree with is your view of the 1 or the 3 or the 5%ers. I am not thinking of the Mom and Pop store owners or the small locally owned independent store owners but rather the multinationals who are I believe exploiting others in undeveloped countries not only at the expense of those people but also at the expense of eliminating valid Canadian employment opportunities.

 

I do not presume to know a solution and I wish that I did, but the fact is that there are many people in very unfortunate situations and not always because they choose to be there. This is where our social network should be focused and go farther than it does at present.

 

I believe that the majority of people want to work and will work hard when given an opportunity.

[mister_crufty 4891]

If your parents are on welfare and raise you to know no different better, you more than likely will be on it as well.. If you have a child and see that you get more money for more babies as well as subsidized housing and free childcare you would probably take it too. At the end of the day, you can then afford to live a VERY extravagant lifestyle all on the government. If you have money for booze and expensive clothing while on government assistance, the guidelines into which one needs to qualify in order to get it, is too low.

 

I definitely agree with you and some of the above posters that certain government programs are too 'lax' and do actually cause a disincentive to work. I don't necessarily feel that this is entirely an issue of individual responsibility though.

 

I think the concept of 'clawbacks' of benefits can be poisonous. There are many cases where attempting to work and better yourself will actually put you in a higher tax bracket and claw back benefits to the point where you're making less than you would idling.

 

Is that an indictment of socialism as a whole? I don't believe so. I find it perfectly logical that people would choose to not work if they would make less money by working. I just feel that many of these programs should be re-vamped such that you're ALWAYS better off to work.

[LeeRichards 177238]

I would like to know:

 

1.) Where do you get your statistics?

2.) What made you move to a community you clearly have disdain for?

 

 

 

You CANNOT live an etravagant lifestyle on social assistance. I don't know where you are getting your information but you are not being responsible by spreading so much misinformation in your post.

 

Yes you can Fred and I have seen it a hundred times over. It is called working the system. Makes me sick actually what I have seen over the years. and on the flipside I have seen people turned away that deserve assistance which makes me sicker.

[fredsmith 5240]

Cristy, I do not want to start an argument or fight with you but I have to say a a few things.

 

As far as your comment regarding welfare recipients driving escalades, that is so ridiculous. I'm not saying that the statement is false because whoever is driving that escalade is either supplementing their income from some other illegal activity or it is someone who was doing very well in life and has fell hard and fast.

 

To suggest that someone can afford an escalade on social assistance is just so ridiculous I can't find words for it.

 

My guess is that you heard a story about someone who's probably getting welfare illegally and you blanket the whole community with the story of this person (or people) who scam the welfare system, it is not the majority I assure you.

 

You're sadly misinformed, do some research and see what a single person or mother of 1,2,3 make on welfare, it's not a lot.

 

Don't waste your time being angry at or envying the people on welfare.

 

I too practice being non-judgemental and also help others often. Realistically we are all judgemental even when trying hard not to be, although in asking the question- why- I was doing so to try and understand and have others give their input, perhaps educating me and helping me to be more understanding . Instead some have decided to judge my thread, lol.:icon_biggrin:

 

Couple other things, I agree we are all judgemental but I also believe your post was judgmental, it was like the first post that followed said, a rant. You're entitled to your opinion but just call it what it was.

 

Additional Comments:

Yes you can Fred and I have seen it a hundred times over. It is called working the system. Makes me sick actually what I have seen over the years. and on the flipside I have seen people turned away that deserve assistance which makes me sicker.

 

RIGHT!!!

 

But....you're blanketing the entire community with the actions of some criminals.

 

In my opinion that is wrong. There are bad cops, bad lawyers, bad doctors. There are scumbags in every part of society, I just think it's wrong to judge the entire welfare community by the actions of these criminals.

 

So are you saying that 65%(not a chance) of the community Emily lives in are living extravagantly?

 

People who legally and legitimately live on welfare live below the poverty line. That is a fact!

[CristyCurves 169032]

Cristy, I do not want to start an argument or fight with you but I have to say a a few things.

 

As far as your comment regarding welfare recipients driving escalades, that is so ridiculous. I'm not saying that the statement is false because whoever is driving that escalade is either supplementing their income from some other illegal activity or it is someone who was doing very well in life and has fell hard and fast.

 

To suggest that someone can afford an escalade on social assistance is just so ridiculous I can't find words for it.

 

My guess is that you heard a story about someone who's probably getting welfare illegally and you blanket the whole community with the story of this person (or people) who scam the welfare system, it is not the majority I assure you.

 

You're sadly misinformed, do some research and see what a single person or mother of 1,2,3 make on welfare, it's not a lot.

 

Don't waste your time being angry at or envying the people on welfare.

 

 

 

Couple other things, I agree we are all judgemental but I also believe your post was judgmental, it was like the first post that followed said, a rant. You're entitled to your opinion but just call it what it was.

 

Additional Comments:

 

 

RIGHT!!!

 

But....you're blanketing the entire community with the actions of some criminals.

 

In my opinion that is wrong. There are bad cops, bad lawyers, bad doctors. There are scumbags in every part of society, I just think it's wrong to judge the entire welfare community by the actions of these criminals.

 

So are you saying that 65%(not a chance) of the community Emily lives in are living extravagantly?

 

People who legally and legitimately live on welfare live below the poverty line. That is a fact!

Thank you Fred. This is a discussion not an argument so all points of view are welcome. So we should be able to openly and in a friendly manner discuss without calling out posts or statements as ridiculous, wrong or misguided. I am speaking from experience and yes, about those who are supplementing their income. That is perfectly clear in the initial post. Wether or not you believe it is your choice. I am also very well aware of what one gets when on welfare and what they pay for their public housing. It is maddening especiaslly when some of these mothers move in there employed bf's and work a job under the table to support their 1,2,and 3 kids.Yes this to may be ridiculous in your mind but it happpens alot and often.

Please inform us also how you know Emily's if statistics are wrong.

I will also add I don't think Lee's statement was a blanket one he was speaking of those-remember-those- who take advantage of the systems. Welfare and unemployment-these are the systems that are spoken of in this thread. I don't remember anyone saying the whole system or all it's recipients. I mean we all can elaborate and include other systems, sectors and occupations. But that is not the point of this thread nor was it for me to judge. When I ask someone why it's is because I want to know or want an explanation-to understand. But if you see it as judging so be it. You are as we all are entitled to your opinion.

[piano8950 32577]

So...anyone who has received assistance care to share?

 

V Not someone who gamed the system, but used the assistance to pull themselves out of difficult times and no longer on it

[EmilyRushton 253369]

 

My guess is that you heard a story about someone who's probably getting welfare illegally and you blanket the whole community with the story of this person (or people) who scam the welfare system, it is not the majority I assure you.

 

You're sadly misinformed, do some research and see what a single person or mother of 1,2,3 make on welfare, it's not a lot.

 

Don't waste your time being angry at or envying the people on welfare.

 

 

 

Couple other things, I agree we are all judgemental but I also believe your post was judgmental, it was like the first post that followed said, a rant. You're entitled to your opinion but just call it what it was.

 

Additional Comments:

 

 

RIGHT!!!

 

But....you're blanketing the entire community with the actions of some criminals.

 

In my opinion that is wrong. There are bad cops, bad lawyers, bad doctors. There are scumbags in every part of society, I just think it's wrong to judge the entire welfare community by the actions of these criminals.

 

So are you saying that 65%(not a chance) of the community Emily lives in are living extravagantly?

 

People who legally and legitimately live on welfare live below the poverty line. That is a fact!

 

Let me rephrase this (As I mistyped what I meant to phrase), as I am a downtown dweller and not a suburban type of person, 65% of the people in the area of the city in which I live in, which can be referred to as downtown is on welfare or some form of social assistance (this does not take in effect, east , west, north, south or out lying areas). This sounds high, but if one took a poll on how many were on assistance in the projects in Toronto (or similar cities), it would be higher.

 

Im not judging the entire community on welfare, (there are people who need it and have no other option) these people use welfare as a last resort not as a means to a lifestyle. It takes a bigger person to admit they need help.

 

It may not look like a lot of money, and in fact is not to those who DO NEED it, but there are FAR too many milking the system.

[Guest s******ecan****]

Cristy, I do not want to start an argument or fight with you but I have to say a a few things.

 

As far as your comment regarding welfare recipients driving escalades, that is so ridiculous. I'm not saying that the statement is false because whoever is driving that escalade is either supplementing their income from some other illegal activity or it is someone who was doing very well in life and has fell hard and fast.

 

To suggest that someone can afford an escalade on social assistance is just so ridiculous I can't find words for it.

 

My guess is that you heard a story about someone who's probably getting welfare illegally and you blanket the whole community with the story of this person (or people) who scam the welfare system, it is not the majority I assure you.

 

You're sadly misinformed, do some research and see what a single person or mother of 1,2,3 make on welfare, it's not a lot.

 

Don't waste your time being angry at or envying the people on welfare.

 

 

 

Couple other things, I agree we are all judgemental but I also believe your post was judgmental, it was like the first post that followed said, a rant. You're entitled to your opinion but just call it what it was.

 

Additional Comments:

 

 

RIGHT!!!

 

But....you're blanketing the entire community with the actions of some criminals.

 

In my opinion that is wrong. There are bad cops, bad lawyers, bad doctors. There are scumbags in every part of society, I just think it's wrong to judge the entire welfare community by the actions of these criminals.

 

So are you saying that 65%(not a chance) of the community Emily lives in are living extravagantly?

 

People who legally and legitimately live on welfare live below the poverty line. That is a fact!

 

So true

 

The notion of people on social assistance living extravagantly is a myth. Through a volunteer organization I got to know a young single mom. Her welfare entitlement was less than $1,000 per month and I think she got around $250 in CTB. She lived in subsidized housing but her rent was still over $450 (a lot around here). She had access to a drug plan which was helpful as her son had constant ear infections.

 

She had no car nor any way of affording one. She was trying to finish high school and her parents were offering no support. Her ex was totally irresponsible and unwilling to help. His parents were happy to supply daycare and look after her son so long as she gave up custody to them.

 

Is it too much to ask that as a society we provided her with these very basic and largely inadequate assistance? I often left her cash when she wasn't looking (she wouldn't accept it otherwise...it was our little game) to help ends meet.

 

She eventually graduated and found work and is struggling to get further education, now of course she rec'vs no assistance other than CTB. Hardly a fraudster. The vast majority of those on assistance are just as legitimate as her. Being on assistance was humiliating and depressing for her. The "subsidized" apartment was an absolute dive owned by one of the 1% (praise be upon their name)

 

Most of those who cash cheques in the bank are seniors (trust me I know I worked in a branch for years)

 

In NB the biggest welfare recipients are large corporations who are at the trough in more ways than there are to have sex.

[fredsmith 5240]

Thank you Fred. This is a discussion not an argument so all points of view are welcome. So we should be able to openly and in a friendly manner discuss without calling out posts or statements as ridiculous, wrong or misguided. I am speaking from experience and yes, about those who are supplementing their income. That is perfectly clear in the initial post. Wether or not you believe it is your choice. I am also very well aware of what one gets when on welfare and what they pay for their public housing. It is maddening especiaslly when some of these mothers move in there employed bf's and work a job under the table to support their 1,2,and 3 kids.Yes this to may be ridiculous in your mind but it happpens alot and often.

Please inform us also how you know Emily's if statistics are wrong.

I will also add I don't think Lee's statement was a blanket one he was speaking of those-remember-those- who take advantage of the systems. Welfare and unemployment-these are the systems that are spoken of in this thread. I don't remember anyone saying the whole system or all it's recipients. I mean we all can elaborate and include other systems, sectors and occupations. But that is not the point of this thread nor was it for me to judge. When I ask someone why it's is because I want to know or want an explanation-to understand. But if you see it as judging so be it. You are as we all are entitled to your opinion.

 

Well we can go back and forth, I believe you and a couple of others are pointing to people who are illegally receiving welfare benefits. I'm sure there are equally or maybe even more people scamming the EI system as well.

For me, that is the answer to your "why". There are criminals and scumbags who steal and take advantage of governments and individuals.

 

Also, please see Jhena's response for more answers to your questions, it was a great post.

 

As far as Emily's statistics I asked a question. Where did she get the statistic that 65% of the city/community she lives in are on welfare.

 

I just found this article, although almost 4 years old I think it might be an interesting read for folks. Two things stick out, there are SOME people living on less that $300 per month. At the bottom of the article it mentions the number of people on social assistance, province wide mind you but it gives you and idea of the amount of people who collect welfare.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/11/13/nb-poverty-reduction-plan.html

[roamingguy 300292]

Well I'll reflect on a couple occurrences that took place in my young impressionable life, oh ok, not so impressionable but compared to now, young LOL

I was looking to rent a co-op townhouse. This co-op was under construction, with both apartments and townhouses. I had priced rents at different apartments and figured the rent shouldn't be so bad. First you had to attend a meeting, where the rules were outlined. So I went to this long three+ hour meeting. At the end of it, the ball dropped. The co-ops were rentals, but also geared to those on social assistance. What that meant, first, I couldn't get into a townhouse, need to have at least one kid. So my selection of rentals was reduced to a very small one bedroom apartment, of which there were very few. Second, they worked the rents so those on social assistance got a very reduced rent, something like $250.00 month for a townhouse, but me, since I worked for a living, would have to pay way above market value in rent, something like $800.00 a month for a shoebox size apartment. The rationale in their thinking is those living at the co-op who have jobs would subsidize those on welfare (and have little choice in the apartment they could rent). I decided to get a bigger apartment with market rents and screw the co-op idea...and my rent was $500 month. Oh, and I drove by the co-op about a year after I thought of going in, the area became run down (no one took any pride in where they lived) and there was at least one and in more cases two to three cars in the driveway

Second case. For a short period of time I was dating this woman. She was a single mother, on welfare living in subsidized housing. After a few dates she started broaching a few ideas. First, she asked if she and her daughter could be included on my medical/dental insurance. No big issues there, if the dating developed into a relationship, of course I would include them. But she also wanted me to move in with her at her subsidized housing. She would still only pay the subsidized rent (based on her being a single mother), and then wanted me to split the rent 50-50. Well if I moved in, she is no longer a single mother, and she wouldn't be entitled to subsidized housing. Anyhow, if your wondering how there can be two, three cars in a driveway, maybe Cadillac Escalades, maybe someone on welfare latched on to someone working for a living. They both live in subsidized housing together, paying for the working guy a very reduced rent compared to market prices. Me, when the idea was broached, just seemed unethical and illegal, not to mention I had my place. And to boot, she had kind of a big mouth, she'd brag to her friends how she was scamming the system.

Now there are those who need welfare legitimately, but there are others who could start looking through the want ads, and work. It may not be a glamorous Bay Street job, but earning your pay instead of getting spoon fed a cheque every couple weeks builds pride and character

My 2 cents

RG

[CristyCurves 169032]

So true

 

The notion of people on social assistance living extravagantly is a myth. Through a volunteer organization I got to know a young single mom. Her welfare entitlement was less than $1,000 per month and I think she got around $250 in CTB. She lived in subsidized housing but her rent was still over $450 (a lot around here). She had access to a drug plan which was helpful as her son had constant ear infections.

 

She had no car nor any way of affording one. She was trying to finish high school and her parents were offering no support. Her ex was totally irresponsible and unwilling to help. His parents were happy to supply daycare and look after her son so long as she gave up custody to them.

 

Is it too much to ask that as a society we provided her with these very basic and largely inadequate assistance? I often left her cash when she wasn't looking (she wouldn't accept it otherwise...it was our little game) to help ends meet.

 

She eventually graduated and found work and is struggling to get further education, now of course she rec'vs no assistance other than CTB. Hardly a fraudster. The vast majority of those on assistance are just as legitimate as her. Being on assistance was humiliating and depressing for her. The "subsidized" apartment was an absolute dive owned by one of the 1% (praise be upon their name)

 

Most of those who cash cheques in the bank are seniors (trust me I know I worked in a branch for years)

 

In NB the biggest welfare recipients are large corporations who are at the trough in more ways than there are to have sex.

 

A myth? okay.Thank you for your opinion. So those who I have met were an illusion? Tell some of my relatives and others who come into contact , because of their positions, with some of these people that they are believing in myths and seeing illusions. These truths maybe hard to believe or stomach but it doesn't discount their existence.You speak of one person, personally I have know more than a few. Those I have known paid 250 a month for their apartment, had all the tech gadjets, big screen tv's wore designer clothes as did their kids and drove newer cars.Wore nice jewlery and were able to buy any type of food they felt like eating at the time. A myth, no, but neither the majority.The system is broken and abused and you too should be angered as it is those like you have met and that Lee has mentioned(those that use it correctly and who truly need it) that are sometimes turned away, because of those who I am speaking about.

 

On another note perhaps somone could make some points of view on the pet issue as I'm far more educated and informed about that issue:)

[mister_crufty 4891]

A myth? okay. So those who I have met were an illusion? Tell some of my relatives and others who come into contact , because of their positions, with some of these people that they are believing in myths and seeing illusions. You speak of one person, personally I have know more than a few. Those I have known paid 250 a month for their apartment, had all the tech gadjets, big screen tv's wore designer clothes as did their kids and drove newer cars.Wore nice jewlery and were able to buy any type of food they felt like eating at the time. A myth, no, but neither the majority.The system is broken and abused and you too should be angered as it is those like you have met and that Lee has mentioned(those that use it correctly and who truly need it) that are sometimes turned away, because of those who I am speaking about.

 

I just wish it was easier to weed out the cheats and users without painting the legitimately needy with the same brush.

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

This thread was a very interesting read. I don't have an opinion one way or the other because I have never received social assistance nor really know anyone who has. I do have thoughts on the issue but will keep them to myself. Keep up the great debate tho!