A question of ethics

[Eric Northman 16522]

So imagine one got into the hobby as a result of marital problems. Lack of sex, lack of intimacy, etc.

 

Now the marriage is perhaps starting to work again. Reconnecting, having more sex, experimenting, becoming close again, communicating. It feels good and you really want the marriage to work. You're putting in legitimate effort and falling back in love again.

 

But the genie is out of the bottle. One has discovered uncomplicated, attachment-free sex with beautiful women who might ordinarily be out of one's league. There is no longer any 'justification' such as neglect, unhappiness, etc. One needs to simply accept that one is doing it because, 'I like it', and 'I want to.'

 

So what does one do? Stop hobbying and put all ones effort into the marriage? Be "good"? Is it possible to have a true loving and intimate relationship with a partner and still have a secret life on the side? Perhaps one woman just isn't sufficient? Is cheating something that happens with your body or your heart?

 

Dunno if anyone else has found themselves in the same boat. It would seem like the right thing to do would be simply to decide. A life with a wife or sex with many women. Black and white. It sucks though because both are really awesome in their own ways. It seems a shame to not be able to have your cake and eat it too but promises have been made.

 

Or does it just mean that it's the wrong wife? That one needs to find a partner that can come along on sexual adventures. Those seem like exceedingly rare creatures though.

 

Difficult questions. Wouldn't it seem that if you truly were with the right woman you wouldn't even WANT to see escorts? Or is that just an old-fashioned romantic notion?

[Soleil Sublime 38108]

I believe that most men are able to enjoy the physicality of sex without falling or being in love with that partner. Women on the other hand, (leaving out most SPs) have trouble having sex without intimacy and having feelings for their partner. I believe God just made men and women differently and I have respect for those men who make the decision to see SPs over choosing to trouble themselves with the trials and tribulations of an affair.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

I am in the same boat with you. Married, although things in my bed are not improving, we definitely connect in other ways. I personally don't think I am doing a terrible thing but you have to decide for yourself.

 

I consider sex with an SP to be just a physical act. My emotions are not involved here. I am also fairly certain that my wife would not divorce me if she found out about my hobby. She would have a harder time with an ongoing affair than with what I get up to here.

 

Not to stereotype, but if you lived in Italy, this lifestyle would almost be expected of you.

[roamingguy 300292]

Well I don't have an answer for you...just a personal observation from my own experience. While I have never been married (thank god as it turns out for me)

I have had a number of relationships and did the dating game. While in relationships/dating I was alway monagomous and not moralizing, just what is right for me, would never see any other women while involved (again not moralizing it's just right for me)

But one aspect of this lifestyle I love is the polyamorous nature of it. In part because of that I couldn't go back to a conventional relationship. And if by some fluke the right woman came along I would be faithful, but it would be a difficult decision because I'd have to give up this polyamorous lifestyle

For whatever it's worth

RG

[cat 262460]

Your honesty is appreciated here, I know it isn't easy to be frank with such a personal struggle. I have encountered guests who struggle with this and I always tell them to trust their intuition but men prefer logic which doesn't apply to affairs of the heart and conscience. I congratulate you on making things work again in your relationship, that is such an amazing accomplishment.

 

What I have never understood is the necessity to justify taking care of your personal needs. Are you a man who needs regular sexual interaction or do you need the stimulation of multiple partners? I would recommend if you boil it down and it turns out you really just want regularity then you are better to play at home with your partner. There is a safety in knowing she won't find out and you could end up losing her as a result. If you need a little variety to keep things working at home then chosing a provider is always safer than just having an affair.

 

I loved your words "Be "good". I spent my entire life trying to do just that and finally figured out a couple of years ago that I am good, just the way I am. It is possible to have a true, loving and intimate relationship with secrets, the question is do you want it that way? How are you hardwired? Does guilt eat at you? Do you have regrets? If not, then it really isn't an issue except in theory. What is cheating to your SO? The definition is fluid, for some women it's when their boyfriend looks at women in magazines and for others it's when the man gets engaged to another without her even knowing there was another woman in the picture.

 

I have 2 guests that I adore, one former and one current. Both of the same age, religion, and economic bracket. One retired from seeing me because he became a grandfather and felt in his heart he couldn't be a role model unless he walked the walk. The other doesn't put onus on his relationship with me in context when it comes to his personal life. Being a part of my life doesn't change who he is, what he believes or stands for. These gentlemen are both doing what's "right". But it's what's right for them and only them.

 

I don't believe in a "one and only", that person who is "your" sparkly unicorn and the pursuit of finding it can distract us from the real meaning we find in our day to day. The only person who has to live with you inside your head is you and that is where these answers are. I do believe that you can have a spectacular relationship with one person for a lifetime but it has to be exactly what you want to do. Either way, if you aren't true to yourself, you both will eventually pay the price...

 

cat

[Eric Northman 16522]

Intuition and feelings rather than logic. So difficult for some of us men. What we tell ourselves is logic is colored by emotion whether we choose to believe it or not.

 

So my observations of my feelings are that I still feel just as warm and loving to my wife even when I'm seeing providers. I don't feel that I'm "spreading myself too thin" so to speak. I miss her when she's gone (as she is this week) and enjoy intimate time with her.

 

Your point about regularity vs. variety is a very good one. I've always been faithful in the past but I've also always had a wandering eye. Examining myself closely makes me think that variety is what I'm after. I'm flighty and easily bored so being with only one woman may not be viable long term. That's not to say sex with her is boring or not enjoyable, only that it's not the same as sex with a provider. If anything, providers inspire me to keep fit and groomed which technically benefits her too right? You only get one chance to make a first impression

 

Not feeling guilty is a bit of a concern though. Doesn't that make one a sociopath? Technically speaking one is doing something that would definitely hurt a loved one if found out. Yes, one is taking care of ones needs but do the ends justify the means? It kind of worries me a bit that I don't particularly feel bad.

 

So the conflict is, I THINK I should not do this because society and my upbringing tells me it's wrong. I FEEL that I really want to keep doing it and not let these wonderful experiences pass me by. A few days ago I made the decision to stop but I found myself wavering within less than 24 hours. Curse you ladies with your sexy sexy ads... ;-)

[Serena Blake 14066]

there have been so many good points above. Listen to what your heart wants.

I believe Love is in the heart and sex is physical. Love can be displayed in so many ways. Hand holding, smiles, feelings, cuddling, talking, spending time together, ect. I've been in relationships that are purely sex and felt very unfulfilled. When you have love its completely different.

Yes I like to have sex with other people. Who wouldn't get sick of steak if they ate it everyday? But this does not mean I don't absolutely adore the man I'm with. And although til he met me he was 100% sure he would never look sideways at an sp. But once he got with me it didn't take him long to realize I have 101 other ways to show my love that no one else gets :)

lol I don't cook for anyone but my man.

That's not to say he wouldn't be heartbroken if I went out and picked up at a bar or F'd one of my friends or had an affair on him and I couldn't do that to him. But he knows that what I do for work isn't love and the snuggles on the couch or our family walks with the dog at home is :)

I guess things just come out to state of mind. It could be said that when women want to relax they will get their nails or hair done or shopping or pamper them selves in some way. Well, how do men like pamper themselves?

[Phaedrus 209521]

Well, it's a tough one, that. I can't even tell you what answers would be right for me, never mind what answers will be right for you. So, a couple of questions instead...

 

First up: how does seeing SPs affect your relationship with your wife? Does it make you want more sex with her? Less, because you're sated? No effect at all?

 

Secondly: what are the consequences of your SP visits being discovered? And what's the likelihood of this happening? And, despite the answers to those two questions being very hard to determine at best... is the risk worth it to you?

 

Thirdly: how do you feel about it? Are you fine with keeping her in the dark? Is there a worm of guilt that gnaws away at your insides? If so, can you live with it, or will it eat you up?

 

Obviously I don't know the answers to those questions, and it wouldn't necessarily be a great idea for you to tell me. But they're probably questions you should think about, and hopefully the answers - or lack of them - may nudge you towards one decision or another on the overall question that you asked.

 

And yes, it may be that if you had the absolutely perfect wife then she'd be fine with you seeing SPs, which you would then have no need or desire to do.... but alas, we don't live in a perfect world, and we just have to make do with what we have.

[Midnite-Energies 110563]

I find men to be of bigger disadvantage than women because they lead with mind and logic while women lead with heart. We are trained when growing up and into adult life that relationships must be structured in "this" way, you must behave like 'this", you must feel guilt and shame when you step outside this structure and that jealousy is normal. I believe every person has something that is right for them whether it be monogamy, polyamory or anything in between. Unfortunately this means having to listen to yourself, making choices that are unacceptable to others, accept that shame, guilt and jealousy are all fear based and are trained behaviors and can be unlearned and lose friends and family who care about "propriety" instead or love, tolerance and acceptance.

 

One thought is that sometimes it IS that you're with the wrong person or the person you're with should be more of a good friend than wife/GF. If you're honest with yourself about what you want then WAIT for the person that fulfills this. If you're already with someone, be honest about it. Partners might feel the same way or they might not but at least it opens up the lines of communication and allows for honest conversation. Maybe your partner is really a closet adventurer or maybe they have no interest at all. So many people just accept it as reality and don't take the risk to perhaps improve. Fear again because it could go the other way to.

 

Another thought is that you like your partner as you connect in so many different ways that are good. Sex is not among them. There is nothing wrong with getting your needs met outside the relationship without entanglements as this generally makes the main relationship stronger by taking away resentments, stress and a slew of other negative things that may impact the relationship. Using an SP to meet needs does not detract from the love you feel for a partner it can actually make you feel more loving because you are more content. We all have needs and if they're not met, they are detrimental to our health and happiness. This has been proven in many studies.

 

I would love to see more people focusing on taking care of themselves and learning what they want and need instead of being so focused on what others expect or demand from them. If you couple this with honesty, open communication and respect, it's an equation for building a more blissful life on your terms. Who are you? What do you need? How can you get it? Are you worth it? Is it hurting anyone?

 

So much to this one topic and all relative as individuals.

[Eric Northman 16522]

Perhaps I'll just steal a quote from another thread:

 

Don't over think things. Get laid. Fuck, suck, lick, stfu and enjoy it. ;)

 

Words to live by.

 

I think I can safely say that if I hadn't started seeing SPs, my relationship would not be improving the way it is. It helped me gain confidence and feel better about myself which in turn let me reach out to her. As Phaedrus said, perhaps she is a closet adventurer. We've actually started watching some porn and she's seems potentially interested in the idea of having a male MP come over to teach me how to do erotic massage on her. Hm. Might be starting to over-share a bit. :-P

 

Here's a thought. My marriage was kind of shitty not that long ago. Now it kind of isn't. I can't think of anything different than seeing SPs so maybe that's the magic. Unfortunately the wife may never be able to know that but it doesn't change the reality.

 

Thanks so much all of you. It's really helpful to hear others points of view.

[mrgreen760 37785]

Ethics, an interesting question for lots in the game. I'm kind a Jekyll and Hyde type or a Ying and Yang type which some could describe as schizophrenic though I'd describe it as a charming Pisces type :) Going in two directions at the same time. On one hand I'm a very serious highly ethical and focused business type who isn't afraid to be confrontational if needed. Being strong ethically has been both good and bad career wise but I've managed to carve out a nice niche and have been relatively successful. On the other hand in my personal life I'm completely different, a pot smoking, yoga liking meditator who is non confrontational, laid back and goes with the flow.

 

So how do I justify the ethics of playing this game? Simply put I don't. At one point I thought I could as I'm a non f/s player (my line in the sand). But in reality that doesn't fly. Some think cheating is a physical act alone but chatting online or anything you wouldn't share with your partner and is secretive....in my view is cheating. I'm 27 years in, no kids, financially secure, so boredom could be a justification or the classic mid-life crisis. But it's not.

 

I've come to accept that I'm not a perfect person, I look in the mirror and have accepted that I'm not perfect and know some of my actions aren't those of a perfect person. But that's ok with me.

 

When I see some one, I try to be kind and nice and interested in them as people. Not everyone out there who says "and I love what I do" does in reality. So trying my hardest to be a good guy helps me rationalize my participation at least to a degree and that's all I can do.

 

Peace

MG

[Genevieve Marceau 68000]

I don't really believe in monogamy in today's society, and this applies to BOTH gender. There is nothing wrong to seek pleasure, as long as you don't deny it to your partner. What I mean by that is if it's good for you, it's good for her. Maybe you should introduce her to the hobby? If I was married and that I learned my partner was having fun outside marriage, I would not be pissed about the "betrayal" part, but I would rather feel really stupid that all this time I could have also enjoy myself with variety. Maybe your wife already does, who knows? You love her, you guys have a great sexual connection...Maybe it's something you could explore together and from that get even more closer.

[CristyCurves 169032]

 

So the conflict is, I THINK I should not do this because society and my upbringing tells me it's wrong. I FEEL that I really want to keep doing it and not let these wonderful experiences pass me by. ;-)

 

Thank you for your post and honesty. This is the same issue I had with being a provider. I grew up in a very conservative family but have always wanted to do things that were less than conservative. But really I'm just trying to carve my own path and find my own way of living a happy existence. I worry less about being conventional now and I really don't want to fit in any mold anyway so society's way of thinking and my upbringing aren't the ways to happiness for ME. I now know thats alright, we are all different. The way I live may not be okay for someone else but they'll have to get over that. My goal is to find happiness, comfort, peace of mind and an ability to enable myself to live within my guidelines, not societys, and this profession has given that to me. It has also allowed me to understand men, especially my father better. I used to think that men who cheated were mean, selfish, thoughtless people, my father fooled around alot. Until I started in this profession, meeting and talking to many hobbyists. It became clear to me that needing that "extra" doesn't make a man those things at all it simply gives them a way to let go , to enjoy themselves and alot of times, someone to listen to their secrets that they can't tell anyone else.

In fact I love my father more now, as I understand him better and instead of being angry with him for not being faithful to my mother, I empathize with the fact that he pobably felt the way you did, feeling confused, guilty, ect. I wish he were still here so I could tell him it's okay to seek something more. We all do in different ways. After all only when we are complete as a person can we add to anothers life, so live to your rules and be happy:biggrin:

[TGirl-Kay 7485]

Hello my dear,

 

What would happen if you spoke to your wife about your desire to hobby? You say thay you don't think it would be a deal breaker if you were to get caught is there some way to broach the subject and see her reaction?

Would you be able to embrace your partner seeing other lovers as well?

If you wish pm me and I'll give you a great list of resources for people who are interested in opening up the scope of their relationships.

 

My thoughts are with you, you are dealing with a difficult choice.

 

Kay

[Frank7 3939]

I'd advise you to go with honnesty. It's almost always better and she might be up for it. Specialy since you don't think it would be a deal breaker and seems to be more open minded.

If you don't want to flat out tell her you already went, you could always talk to her about the idea of having a 3-some FFM or MMF, or ask her permission to see an SP. Then see her reaction.

 

Phaedrus gave good questions to ask yourself too. I'd had one more. There's always risk for STD (protection or no protection), are you okay risking giving one to your wife, without her deciding if she's okay with the risk of the poly-life.

[JoyfulC 132299]

So what does one do? Stop hobbying and put all ones effort into the marriage? Be "good"? Is it possible to have a true loving and intimate relationship with a partner and still have a secret life on the side? Perhaps one woman just isn't sufficient? Is cheating something that happens with your body or your heart?

 

Yeah, I think you should stop hobbying while you're working out your marriage. I dunno. For me, this is a service that exists for people who are in marriages that aren't satisfying them in this area. And in that sense, it takes pressure off the marriage. If the marriage has no use for sex, and if a sexual edge still exists, then this business can help take that edge off.

 

But it should never compete with marriage. That is not our purpose.

 

If you have a possibility for achieving satisfaction in your marriage, then for goodness sakes, go with that. If that works out, it will bring you your ultimate satisfaction.

[Eric Northman 16522]

Yeah, I think you should stop hobbying while you're working out your marriage. I dunno. For me, this is a service that exists for people who are in marriages that aren't satisfying them in this area. And in that sense, it takes pressure off the marriage. If the marriage has no use for sex, and if a sexual edge still exists, then this business can help take that edge off.

 

But it should never compete with marriage. That is not our purpose.

 

If you have a possibility for achieving satisfaction in your marriage, then for goodness sakes, go with that. If that works out, it will bring you your ultimate satisfaction.

 

Thanks for an alternative viewpoint. I think that I can achieve some level of satisfaction in my marriage but I think that I will also always crave variety. As the marriage and sex life improves, those cravings become less frequent but they never completely go away. If escorts can relieve some of that pressure without me having a messy and complicated affair, then perhaps I might find a happy medium.

[Athos 108589]

This is certainly a difficult question, and ultimately only you can answe it. Can you segment the two parts of your life so they won't adversely affect each other?

 

If I thought the physical aspects of my marriage could be rehabilitated I might not hobby. But I also believe it's possible to have multiple meaningful and fulfilling intimate relationships at the same time.

 

Let your feelings be your guide. If when you are with your wife you feel guilty, or bad about yourself, then you should possibly stop.

 

No right answers here .... Just what is right for you in your situation.

 

Good luck

[JoyfulC 132299]

Whatever you decide to do, please bear in mind that your obligation to engage in the safest sex possible has now increased many fold, due to the possibility of exposing your wife without her knowledge or consent. Educate yourself! There are diseases which defy barriers, such as HPV, HSV.

 

I am married myself, but the difference is that my spouse is fully knowledgeable and is therefore able to consent.

 

It's a tricky thing to try to carry on a marital sex life alongside a clandestine one. There are good reasons to give it serious consideration. But I think you're right in that, if you're inevitably going to do it anyway, sticking with professionals is your most responsible option. Good luck!

[Eric Northman 16522]

This is certainly a difficult question, and ultimately only you can answe it. Can you segment the two parts of your life so they won't adversely affect each other?

 

If I thought the physical aspects of my marriage could be rehabilitated I might not hobby. But I also believe it's possible to have multiple meaningful and fulfilling intimate relationships at the same time.

 

Let your feelings be your guide. If when you are with your wife you feel guilty, or bad about yourself, then you should possibly stop.

 

Thanks. In the brief time I've been doing this I'm surprised to learn that it's possible to keep the two things separate. I wouldn't have believed it of myself but I'm actually finding myself somewhat at peace living a double life.

 

The nice thing about hobbying as a double life, as opposed to having an affair or being a secret agent, :-D is that you have full control. You choose exactly how much or how little involvement you have. It's a secret life but it never needs to interfere unless you let it.

[Midnite-Energies 110563]

THAT is the true test. If you find yourself at peace doing what you're doing, than it is the right action for YOU.

[nobody123 518]

If my relationship with my wife started improving emotionally and physically, and I honestly thought that it stood a chance, I'd stop seeing SPs and MAs in an instant and never look back, no matter how much prettier some of them may be, and no matter how much better any of the sex was.

 

Lucky (?) for me, there is zero chance of that happening, so huzzah!

[nntsci 11076]

"Wouldn't it seem that if you truly were with the right woman you wouldn't even WANT to see escorts? "

 

The monogamous bonding instinct for humans is very weak; its a very recent development in evolution. If we look at our two closest relatively it is most likely that our ancestors were either polygamous (Gorilla; more than one mating partner) or promiscuous (Chimps; no pair bonding). The only other ape that pair bonds is the Gibbon and its the most distant of the apes from us. Sooo the fact that human mating rarely reaches that monogamous ideal is not surprising. Just cause your eyes go a wondering... doesn't mean your wife is not the one... of course I also don't believe in destiny or in any magical notion that there is the right person what so ever; forget about that.

 

People marry who they happen to meet up with and they stay with the person that can get along with without irritating each other too much. AS far as I'm concerned. Service providers are one of the things that makes monogamy possible....

 

Personally I believe that cheating is not less and not more moral than expecting someone else to be monogamous. Its interesting how people will moralize about "cheating", but never consider the fundamental ethical problems with expecting someone to be "faithful".

[Goombata72 1556]

Trust.

 

My ex-wife and I had trust. No matter what we would always tell each other if something wasn't working.

 

When we split I was always true to her and to this day I still love her with all my heart. I no longer trust her and as much as I want her to come back I could never trust her again.

 

We split in Sept 2012 and she told me there wasn't another man. I believed her until the proof came out. She was with the same man from late 2011 to present and has been living with him since Oct 2012. Almost less then a week after telling me she wanted to split up. I have been with a couple ladies and SP a few time but only after I finally felt I could.

 

We all make choices and I didn't have a choice at all. She down right cheated on me and what that means is when we finally go to court and it all comes out she will lose everything. Not only my trust and families trust but her BF daughter is going to find out that her mom left because he was cheating on her with my ex.

 

My ex will always have my love but will never have my trust. To have one without the other is not a happy life with another person. You want to be with a sp then make sure you are honest about it to yourself. If your married or in a long term relationship be honest with your partner. They have every right to make the choice to stay or go.

 

If you say you can trust someone then you're admitting to something even greater then love. Trust involves all your thoughts and emotions to be given to someone so they can have. Trusting someone is knowing that you can be hurt so bad that none can even know. This is why trust is a word of great power.

[Frank7 3939]

Personally I believe that cheating is not less and no more moral than expecting someone else to be monogamous. Its interesting how people moralist will go on about cheating, but never consider the fundamental ethical problems with expecting someone to be faithful.

 

Personnaly, i don't see an ethical problem with asking faithfulness from someone. Unless it's the very rare case( in canada) that someone is forced in a marriage, it was his/her own decision to swear that they'd be monogamous.

 

However, i don't see anything immoral/unethical with not being monogamous. Polymorous or open life-style are just as ethical then monogamy. As long as everyone is conscenting, any kind of sex is ethical!