A bbbj talk.

[canuckhooker 19203]

Firstly, at the time I wrote this response, 16 SPs responded that they were feeling pressured to provide bbbj. That's over half, and that's really disturbing.

 

 

The problem with what you wrote here can be summed up in Mark Twain's words that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

Yes, over 50% of the SP's "who responded" said they felt pressure. However only 30 SPs have responded to date. Is that a representative sample, or are most of the respondents just those who do not want to offer BBBJ?

 

The trouble with this thread and the other on the topic, is that people are trying to use "statistics", and statements that imply they are being coerced, to win their point. If an SP does not want to offer BBBJ, then that is their choice. The fact that another offers it should not concern them.

 

Read that again! It is none of their business. I have seen people argue on these threads that it is their business because another SP offering that service puts them at risk if they see the same clients. Well that would only be true if every client only had sexual encounters with "sex-workers". I can't recall ever getting a CBJ from a "civillian". So that shoots down that argument. The only way you would ever be truly safe is if everyone in the world only did oral covered.

 

Again, whether a sex-worker offers a CBJ or a BBBJ, or DATY (covered or uncovered), or DATO, or Greek, or DFK or Mild BDSM, it is their own business and should not be debated here, or anywhere else, by other sex-workers or clients. Some sex-workers on here are saying they feel coerced to give BBBJ, but I would argue that this whole debate could be seen as an attempt to coerce or use the "court of public opinion" to get those who do offer BBBJ to change their service. That could be for safety reasons, but I could also imply it is to reduce what some may think is the competitive edge given to those who offer it. However, reading these threads and seeing the results of the poll you could draw the conclusion that it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

 

Again, the decision to do a BJ covered or uncovered is up to the provider in question. It has no bearing on any other provider. You make your decisions based on what you feel is correct and guide yourself accordingly. What anyone else does is really none of your business.

[Guest]

One thing that seems to be prominent in these types of conversations is that escorts feel pressured into providing bbbj's or any other type of services. I must admit that I do understand this statement and I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel a certain amount of pressure to provide bbbj's. I am curious by nature and just wanted to see how many escorts really feel this way. I think in any business, business owners feel a certain amount of pressure to provide for their clients. It is up to us individually, to make informed decisions for ourselves, on what makes us feel comfortable. It is interesting to read all the different opinions but it the end people will do what suites them the best.

[piano8950 32577]

Again, whether a sex-worker offers a CBJ or a BBBJ, or DATY (covered or uncovered), or DATO, or Greek, or DFK or Mild BDSM, it is their own business and should not be debated here, or anywhere else, by other sex-workers or clients.

 

I digress. I think everything is fair game. To say that some topics are irrelevant discussion just seems bizarre to me. I don't know what you picked up from this thread, but I did learn something new from it. Here's what I do with a thread with a topic I have no care in the world for - ignore it.

 

Again, the decision to do a BJ covered or uncovered is up to the provider in question. It has no bearing on any other provider. You make your decisions based on what you feel is correct and guide yourself accordingly. What anyone else does is really none of your business.

 

I can't think of any industry out there that isn't influenced by what their competitors are doing. To say that what another SP does is none of another SP's business is in my opinion massively presumptuous.

 

Nevertheless, I haven't read many SPs on this thread actively denigrating others for offering the service.

 

Finally, statistics aside, lets look at one fact. 16 respondents replied with the feeling of being pressured. I can't for the life of me begin to understand that sort of pressure in this case, but I can do my part in alleviating that concern. Call the stats completely bogus, but you can't deny that for whatever reasons, even for those that you think are dumb or non-existent, they are some you do have the feeling of being pressured. At this point it just becomes your decision with what you decide to do with whatever you've read here. I've already said what I'd do from now on, and if you read my previous comment again, you'll see I don't try to impose this on anyone else.

 

Why this thread is important to me- I saw something that raised an alarm in my head, and decided to do something different. I am glad for this sort of discussion.

[crankF 12893]

When threads sort of turn into flame-wars, I am reminded of some of dear old dad's words of wisdom:"I don't bother to argue because I KNOW that I'm right!".

[whiteman 14028]

One thing that seems to be prominent in these types of conversations is that escorts feel pressured into providing bbbj's or any other type of services. I must admit that I do understand this statement and I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel a certain amount of pressure to provide bbbj's. I am curious by nature and just wanted to see how many escorts really feel this way. I think in any business, business owners feel a certain amount of pressure to provide for their clients. It is up to us individually, to make informed decisions for ourselves, on what makes us feel comfortable. It is interesting to read all the different opinions but it the end people will do what suites them the best.

Maybe one thing that can be clarified by you, is how do you feel the pressure? Is it a direct pressure from customers saying that they'll never see you again, if you don't provide it? Or is it more indirect where your customers haven't said anything, but you feel you'll lose them to other escorts who are offering it?

[livefast1098 2151]

 

TOUCH MY MONKEY!!

 

covered or not!! ;)

[hoffa68 939]

I'm anewbie here (When will I stop saying that) and I have not had much experience with CBJs. Even though it didn't seem to make a differnce to me, I still find myself leaning toward those who offer BBBJ. That doesn't mean I excluded those who only provide CBJ as I have seen several on here that I really want to meet. I certainly would not be one to pressure anyone into anything they don't want to do.

 

There are many factors to the clinet moving on from an SP. (Although having so many beautiful SPs on here makes it difficult). Price and other restrictions can affect it. The one thing I do look for is DFK (and kissing in general). I haven't seen many on CERb but if they say they will not then I look elsewhere. What can I say, I love kssing

 

This business is like any other business. Supply and Demand. It's the driving force behind how any product is offered. That being said, there is one factor that most business don't have to deal with and that is that something is unsafe. As for you lovely SPs, it is always difficult to figure out a line you are willing to draw and not cross. There will always be clients that will move on if you don't provide certain things (ie the DFK). There are always SPs willing to provide things you might not want to. You have already drawn certain lines. Some won't provide Greek, others at an extra cost ect.

 

Sometimes you have to stay away from the mainstream and find a niche market. Don't worry about what others are offering or what clients you may lose. Most of you ladies on here have so much more to offer so I would only hope that only a select few customers would be lost due to this limit. And hopefully new clients will start lining up

[Guest]

Maybe one thing that can be clarified by you, is how do you feel the pressure? Is it a direct pressure from customers saying that they'll never see you again, if you don't provide it? Or is it more indirect where your customers haven't said anything, but you feel you'll lose them to other escorts who are offering it?

 

I would have to say that I feel direct and indirect pressure to provide bbbj. I feel like this kind of question is a test on it's own, questioning my thoughts and feelings on this matter, maybe I'm taking this question the wrong way? I don't feel the need to elaborate on direct dealings with clients that have made me feel pressured to provide bbbj and I think it is unreasonable to expect me to provide this kind of information. I do however feel pressured to provide bbbj due to the supply and demand. I am in the sex industry. It's not uncommon for normal businesses to do survey's to see what type of serves are provided locally, so businesses can stay current and so they can keep up with demand. I would not be honest if I did not say that this isn't part of the pressure I feel.

 

It doesn't mean that I don't take responsibility for my actions because in the end I decide what I'm going to do with my body.

[Guest t****ster***ke]

while i do think it is an interesting subject and a healthy debate, don't most of us select our sp's based on the woman herself, and not the menu she provides?

[Hector17 9215]

while i do think it is an interesting subject and a healthy debate, don't most of us select our sp's based on the woman herself, and not the menu she provides?

 

I agree with that, and I am one sees 2 favourite Sps regularly...1 is bbbj, the other CBJ only (ymmv is not even a factor).

 

I believe, however, if it came to a choice of seeing either of 2 equally great ladies, then in the context of the fact that I am ultimately paying for the experience, I would choose the one who is happy with bbbj, because I enjoy that that more.

 

I may have only been with a handful of different Sps (I also like the GFEMa experience), but I have never felt that any of them felt pressured...not by me, and not by some indirect force.

In fact I have even had the impression that they enjoyed it. I suspect some will unequivocally say they dont, and they are obviously just good at their "work" .... great actresses.

Perhaps that is naive of me, and maybe I have been fooled all along, but all I have to go on is what is expressed by the Sp in her attitude, words and actions with me.

 

I am sorry to hear that some ladies do feel pressured, and even worse are enduring both subtle and overt pressure exerted by clients.

 

It is actually starting to make me rethink this whole "hobby" and if I should even continue. I will actually discuss this further on a one on one level to gain some perspective.

 

In the end, I really just want us both to enjoy the time we spend together, have a few laughs, some good sex, and share a connection on some level. If that's really been going only 1 way and it's all been an act...I'm likely to be out...or will seriously review my approach.

[MightyPen 67414]

Don't take my statements to mean the market makes the right or ethical decision. ... The market only has the values that those in it want to stand up for. It's up to people within the market to make the right decision for them and for groups to condemn and oppose factors within said market that are wrong/illegal/immoral/etc.

 

Cool. I think it's not always in the power of the participants to put in place the boundaries that serve everyone's long-term interest instead of immediate gratification. It takes an outside authority (the collective we) to enact and enforce the rules that server the general welfare. Obviously a problem in this gray industry.

 

I meant BBanything. The risks have been mentioned and argued about by others in this thread. ... My point is because of these 'benefits' of where we live we're having this discussion. Would those who want BBFS or BBBJ here do the same on vacation in Thailand or Africa?

Cool here too. I guess my main concern is that talking about bareback activities amongst civilians with relatively few partners is a very different subject than the "merits" of bareback FS involving SPs; the SPs are at enormous risk due to both the number of partners and female vs. male risk factors. It's just madness for a client to seek, or an SP to offer, BBFS even in relatively healthy Canada. But... I agree these risks have been covered on this and other threads, no need to resurrect those arguments.

[rob707070 149]

Remove it from your repertoire. Way too risky and no guy is worth the risk of STDs.

[whiteman 14028]

I would have to say that I feel direct and indirect pressure to provide bbbj. I feel like this kind of question is a test on it's own, questioning my thoughts and feelings on this matter, maybe I'm taking this question the wrong way? I don't feel the need to elaborate on direct dealings with clients that have made me feel pressured to provide bbbj and I think it is unreasonable to expect me to provide this kind of information. I do however feel pressured to provide bbbj due to the supply and demand.

I'd say that even if just one customer (even one who isn't a regular, and has only ever seen you once) has told you that he can't go through with an encounter with you due to the BBBJ issue, then you have been directly pressured. I'm sure everybody feels the standard supply/demand marketplace pressure, anyways, but not everyone gets the direct pressure.

[Tom beverly 100]

As much as a bbbj would be alot better, i prefer to keep it safe.

As a noob i would prefer safe all around.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

Peachy....Funny this post started,then the next day after I see this article:(

This is the thread for NB right now, I think has meaning to this thread.

 

PLEASE...know I am not being judgmental at all, but feel it is worth a read and at the end of the day, an SP and Hobbyiest should trust their own instincts and wisdom for each client/session that they are involved in:)

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126905

[Old Dog 179138]

As I get older, the debate becomes less worrisome. Both arguments have their merits; CBJ or BBBJ, as a provider you should do whatever you feel most comfortable with. Ostensibly it's a variation on the same theme.... and when done well, the difference is infinitesimally small.

 

I have moved from being an MSOG kinda guy to a PGLMSHLETGALOSOG (Please God, let me stay hard long enough to get at least one shot on goal) kinda guy. With that in mind, it's far more about the experience and the companion than the details... and that's where the loyalty kicks in. A great provider will keep you coming back because she is that special, not because she does everything on your "to do" list.

[canuckhooker 19203]

 

PLEASE...know I am not being judgmental at all' date=' but feel it is worth a read and at the end of the day, an SP and Hobbyiest should trust their own instincts and wisdom for each client/session that they are involved in:)

 

[/quote']

 

No you are not being judgmental, you are being deliberately inflammatory and using an example that has very little relevance to this debate or thread. The post you are quoting is about HIV transmission by one male to multiple anonymous partners. Partners met on an anonymous dating site.

 

Although the article does not say it outright, knowing how HIV is transmitted, and the rates for various sexual activities, it is highly unlikely that any of these infections came from him giving or receiving oral sex. It is almost 100% certain the transmission was from "bare-backing" i.e. unprotected anal sex, the riskiest of all sexual practices particularly where HIV is concerned. And unfortunately the encounters may have been specifically because the men involved were looking for anonymous "bare-back" sexual encounters.

 

The transmission rates of HIV through oral sex is very very low. Even more so as recent developments in the treatment of the disease mean that most HIV patients have very low viral loads compared to 10 or 20 years ago. For him to have infected 24 men through oral would have meant he was giving or receiving oral several times a day, ever day, over the two year period. And even then it is very doubtful this could have happened unless he had a very high viral load.

 

The real and most likely risks in unprotected oral sex comes from diseases like gonorrhea or syphillis, not HIV.

 

My only hope is that someone will shortly close these threads. There are enough people running around here with torches to burn the whole place to the ground.

[newboy 4919]

Old Dog your statement, "I have moved from being an MSOG kinda guy to a PGLMSHLETGALOSOG (Please God, let me stay hard long enough to get at least one shot on goal) kinda guy." Gave me a good laugh!

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

No you are not being judgmental, you are being deliberately inflammatory and using an example that has very little relevance to this debate or thread. The post you are quoting is about HIV transmission by one male to multiple anonymous partners. Partners met on an anonymous dating site.

 

Although the article does not say it outright, knowing how HIV is transmitted, and the rates for various sexual activities, it is highly unlikely that any of these infections came from him giving or receiving oral sex. It is almost 100% certain the transmission was from "bare-backing" i.e. unprotected anal sex, the riskiest of all sexual practices particularly where HIV is concerned. And unfortunately the encounters may have been specifically because the men involved were looking for anonymous "bare-back" sexual encounters.

 

The transmission rates of HIV through oral sex is very very low. Even more so as recent developments in the treatment of the disease mean that most HIV patients have very low viral loads compared to 10 or 20 years ago. For him to have infected 24 men through oral would have meant he was giving or receiving oral several times a day, ever day, over the two year period. And even then it is very doubtful this could have happened unless he had a very high viral load.

 

The real and most likely risks in unprotected oral sex comes from diseases like gonorrhea or syphillis, not HIV.

 

My only hope is that someone will shortly close these threads. There are enough people running around here with torches to burn the whole place to the ground.

 

 

Is HIV the only STD we are conserned about?I am just saying for me that other conserns that are out there to think about.

 

As in your words, " The real and most likely risks in unprotected oral sex comes from diseases like gonorrhea or syphillis....

 

I do not mean to set fires as you say, just stating simple facts that there are risks....why do you think a poll like this exhists? We cant ignore it, but do need to acknowlege it a responsable way.

Done!

[cat 262460]

What disturbs me most about the article is that someone intentionally went cruising for victims, much like the predators that stalk SPs; with intention of transmitting a disease. If the client base knew how many crazies providers deal with, this article wouldn't seem inflammatory, it would just make sense as to why she posted the link...

 

cat

[canuckhooker 19203]

Is HIV the only STD we are conserned about?I am just saying for me that other conserns that are out there to think about.

 

As in your words' date=' " The real and most likely risks in unprotected oral sex comes from diseases like gonorrhea or syphillis....

 

I do not mean to set fires as you say, just stating simple facts that there are risks....why do you think a poll like this exhists? We cant ignore it, but do need to acknowlege it a responsable way.

Done![/quote']

 

Not being inflammatory? You cross posted this article to two different threads on this board, which is not supposed to happen. You posted an article that although dealing with STDs and sex has no bearing on the topic being discussed and very little to do with what goes on on this board. It was sensationalism at its finest.

 

You are right the risks have to be managed in a responsible and informed way. There are lots of other diseases and infections that can be passed on even if you are using a condom for oral sex. We don't hear much about that.

 

The fact is, people who are in this hobby have to be aware of the risks and manage their behaviour accordingly. And it is not in anyone else's purview to judge or comment or try and influence other's behaviours on this board.

 

If you don't like what someone is doing, then don't see them, and that advice applies equally to clients and providers.

[Phaedrus 209521]

Well, having read through all the posts thus far on the subject, I'm afraid that I think this debate is missing a simple and yet critical component: data.

 

Let's just consider BBBJs in isolation for a moment. There's a number of questions that need to be asked:

- what are the conditions that may be transmitted?

- what's the likelihood of each of those conditions being transmitted from a) the giver to the receiver, and b) vice versa, assuming the appropriate partner were infected and the other wasn't?

- what's the probability of the partner in question being infected in the first place?

- how do we rate the severity of catching the condition in question?

- what other precautions against transmission may be employed, and how effective are they?

- what level of risk are we prepared to accept?

- what rewards are required to make an increased risk worthwhile?

 

If anyone does think they can have a go at answering all those questions, I'd be very interested to see it... but your answer should include links to your sources of data (where relevant, for things like transmission rates) and justifications for value-judgements of a more personal nature (would you rather catch herpes or gonorrhea, and why?).

 

And once you've done that... well, that's just the start. Once we've gathered the raw data, we need to start organizing it, and making judgement calls and trade-offs. Guys: would you accept a 2% higher chance of catching syphillis in exchange for a BJ that's 50% better? Ladies, is getting an extra client each week (on average) worth a 10% higher chance of contracting a particular HPV strain? I'll freely concede that I'm pulling numbers out of my ass here, but these are the kind of questions we should be asking.... and before we can ask the questions, we need to get the underlying numbers.

 

Yeah, science is hard.

[creamsoda 120]

Well, having read through all the posts thus far on the subject, I'm afraid that I think this debate is missing a simple and yet critical component: data.

 

Let's just consider BBBJs in isolation for a moment. There's a number of questions that need to be asked:

- what are the conditions that may be transmitted?

- what's the likelihood of each of those conditions being transmitted from a) the giver to the receiver, and b) vice versa, assuming the appropriate partner were infected and the other wasn't?

- what's the probability of the partner in question being infected in the first place?

- how do we rate the severity of catching the condition in question?

- what other precautions against transmission may be employed, and how effective are they?

- what level of risk are we prepared to accept?

- what rewards are required to make an increased risk worthwhile?

 

If anyone does think they can have a go at answering all those questions, I'd be very interested to see it... but your answer should include links to your sources of data (where relevant, for things like transmission rates) and justifications for value-judgements of a more personal nature (would you rather catch herpes or gonorrhea, and why?).

 

And once you've done that... well, that's just the start. Once we've gathered the raw data, we need to start organizing it, and making judgement calls and trade-offs. Guys: would you accept a 2% higher chance of catching syphillis in exchange for a BJ that's 50% better? Ladies, is getting an extra client each week (on average) worth a 10% higher chance of contracting a particular HPV strain? I'll freely concede that I'm pulling numbers out of my ass here, but these are the kind of questions we should be asking.... and before we can ask the questions, we need to get the underlying numbers.

 

Yeah, science is hard.

 

I don't know that there are any easy answers here. For a part-time SP who doesn't see a lot of different clients and a client who isn't particularly active (like one partner per year) I'm not sure the risk is that great.

 

However, if you have a lot of partners and some of them have really been around then you have to think about what you're doing.

[crankF 12893]

I will pull this one unscientifically from my butt. If I must choose between gonorrhea and herpes, I'll take the former because when properly treated GONorrhea is GONe, whereas HERpes is always HERe, just hiding.

[whiteman 14028]

I will pull this one unscientifically from my butt. If I must choose between gonorrhea and herpes, I'll take the former because when properly treated GONorrhea is GONe, whereas HERpes is always HERe, just hiding.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you'd prefer BBFS over BBBJ, since you can only contract gonorrhea through intercourse? Of course herpes can also be contracted through intercourse, and blowjobs, so two more chances of contracting that.