angry wife

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

what say you all?

 

A few things in the case are still not clear to me. What exactly did the woman blackmail the man for? Money? More sex/love? Did she plan to blackmail him from the get-go, or did she do so for revenge, only after he rejected her further advances? Is she actually a sex worker, or does the wife just want to believe that she is "this slut"/"prostitute"/"this little hooker"... so that her husband seems less culpable in her own mind? All we have seen (on this thread) are the testimony of the wife, whose motivations may well be denial, and to deflect blame from her precious husband at all costs. Does the woman actually have HIV, or did she just make that up to hurt and scare the man who she believed had cruelly jilted her? There is rarely a case of this kind that does not appear in at least a slightly different light after all the protagonists have shed light on the situation.

 

Okay, so much for being a bit (and perhaps overly) leery about the truth of the facts in this one specific case. On general principles, I absolutely agree with everything you say!

 

Cheers, Wrinkled

[Susie 1472]

i don't honestly know....the wife husband and family have been tested though and it came back negative.....you are right we are making alot of assumptions....for me i don't find these assumptions outside of the realm of reason....i've seen women do some crazy shit!!!lol

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

i don't find these assumptions outside of the realm of reason....i've seen women do some crazy shit!!!lol

 

ha ha, humans do get up to crazy shit from time to time, that's for sure.

(disclaimer: for the purposes of this statement only, I'm including men among "the humans", lol)

[Susie 1472]

i think to assume a man can leave is a skewed perspective.....

 

women get battered wife syndrome(defending their abusers-unable to leave), hostages get stockholm syndrome(sympathizing with the hostage takers)

 

women are not the only ones who feel and react....symptoms of the above are well documented.....

 

when i say blame men i am refering to discussions regarding abuse, sex work, family maintenance...etc- we are always coming from the women's side and men are always assumed abusers, rapists, dead beat dads,etc.

 

we as a society do blame men for everything....

 

talking about an abusive situation like the one i described as a domination "freebie" is ridiculous. is abusing a woman a freebie at domination for her?c'mon.i am very experienced and have many dom clients so i feel i can make the distinction thanks.

 

assuming an abused man is disabled or incapable of making a living assumes he was living off her finacially and deserved what he got....can't you see how fucked up your statement is?

 

if you are in a relationship and it's dissolving and all during the relationship birth control has been used, "stickining it in" as you put it has a certain expectation of safety attached to it....as if a woman has never become pregnant to trap or keep a man......

 

as far as seeing through the bullshit, i think i need to clean my wind shield...try to take everything you have said about men and apply it to women......

 

is it the abused wife's fault for being abused because she didn't leave?

 

if a woman is told a man has a vasectomy and has sex becoming pregnant is it her fault?cause she let him "stick it in"?what if they use condoms but he puts a hole in it or intentionall rips it?....she let him "stick it in"...is it her fault?"

 

as far as the family affected in my origional post, you are right, we don't know the whole story.

 

that said, it has opened an important discussion about abuse of men and ways women conduct themselves....

 

try to be open anita....men are human beings who feel, are vulnerable, get taken advantage of and are victimized.

 

part of the problem is how we as a society assume men are strong, assume men are invulnerable and assume they don't need help or support

[mod 135640]

I removed Anita's post as she was being way too hostile and argumentative.

 

I am not sure why but I think you may have stuck a nerve with her on this topic as she was taking it VERY personally.

 

Unfortunately she did not like her post being removed and proceeded to turn the aggregation towards me (Needless to say Anita will no longer be with us on cerb as I have no tolerance for that silliness).

 

I hate banning anyone from the site (especially the service providers) but if the members can not be civil and play well with others I unfortunately have to step in.

[A***** A***** 510]

I removed Anita's post as she was being way too hostile and argumentative.

 

I am not sure why but I think you may have stuck a nerve with her on this topic as she was taking it VERY personally.

 

Unfortunately she did not like her post being removed and proceeded to turn the aggregation towards me (Needless to say Anita will no longer be with us on cerb as I have no tolerance for that silliness).

 

I hate banning anyone from the site (especially the service providers) but if the members can not be civil and play well with others I unfortunately have to step in.

 

I am sorry to hear that mod, you do such a great job here. Don't take it to heart, you have all our support:|

[Ariane Valmont 332]

That's too bad.

 

Anita was a bit too blunt at times but I still liked reading her posts.

 

It's unfortunate that she lost her cool and became agressive... I will miss her input.

[VedaSloan 119179]

 

 

Of course the two examples are not equivalent. Some rapes are worse than others. Just because an offense is not the worst example imaginable, it doesn't mean that it isn't an offense nonetheless.

 

 

I disagree. Rape is rape is rape. It is awful no matter how it happens.

[VedaSloan 119179]

This topic has hit very close to home for me, and so I will share something extremely personal because I think it's relevant to the topic. And it also speaks to the violence that anyone can experience, not just sex workers.

 

In my third year of university, way before I became a sex worker, I was raped by an ex-boyfriend. And it took me almost four years before I admitted it was even rape and stopped blaming myself.

 

I suffered from severe depression at the time, and was in a vulnerable spot and I didn't want to be alone. I called him and he refused to come over unless I agreed to sleep with him, and because I was so desperate for company, I agreed, even though I did not want to. When he got there, I told him I wasn't going to sleep with him and he got very irate. He said he wasn't leaving unless I slept with him because he "didn't come over for nothing." I continued to say no, that I wasn't up to it, and I started to cry. He unzipped his pants, laid back on my bed, and told me to "get on." I shook my head and he just stayed in the same position and repeated how he wasn't leaving until he got what he wanted. So I fucked him. And I cried the entire time. And I blamed myself for giving in.

 

Rape doesn't need to be violent for it to be rape.

 

I took the following from a rape survivor website:

 

If your partner has sex with you under any of the following circumstances, it is rape/sexual assault:

• Physical violence i.e. hitting, choking
  
• Threats with weapons
  
• Continuing sexual activity after you have indicated you wish to stop. (It doesn't matter if you initially consented; people change their minds for a number of reasons all the time. Your wishes should be respected).
  
• Overpowering you with physical strength, pinning you down
  
• Threats to harm you or a third person
  
• Threats to your property/pets
  
• Threats to rape you if you don't give in -that basically says "let me rape you or I'll rape you" - sex gained under such a threat is rape.
  
• Depriving you of liberty until you acquiesce to a sexual demand; i.e. "you don't leave this room until I get what I want".
  
• Having sexual intercourse with you while you are sleeping or incapacitated by drugs/alcohol to the extent that you cannot give or withdraw consent
  
• Refusal to allow you to sleep until you give in to sexual demands (note: sleep deprivation is a recognized form of torture)
  
• Sexual activity after continuous pressure on you to have sex before you are ready, to perform acts you have stated you don't like; or just going ahead and doing it.
  
• Putting you in a position where you must engage in one form of sexual activity to prevent something "worse" from happening i.e. you have to engage in oral sex in order to avoid anal rape.
  

It is important that you realize you do not have to have physically fought or even said "no" for an act to be regarded as sexual assault. Tears or other expression of discomfort are more than reasonable indicators that you do not want the sexual activity. Often, sexually violent partners do not actually seek consent, or if you do say no, it is not taken any notice of.

Remember that submission is not the same as consent.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

Well, this is really frustrating. Erin, I agree that all rape is awful. There are many posts that were made on this thread this afternoon that have been deleted, and you are not seeing the context in which my post was made. The assertion that I was denying in my posts was the assertion that:

a man just cannot be a victim of rape, because anything that does not involve actual application of brute physical force is not rape.

This is the position I was arguing against, not supporting.

 

The two examples which were given, and which I am stating are not equivalent, are the following.They are not equivalent. Given a choice, I would rather be the man who has this happen to him:

"a woman walks into your hotel room, takes her clothes off, pushes her breasts in your face and starts rubbing you..... You don't know her, have a family and want to be faithful, but can't help getting an erection ... you can't resist the temptation and have sex with her".

As I say I would prefer that situation than being:

"the woman who is attacked by gun point on her way home, beaten up by a stranger, dragged into the bush and raped".

These are the two things that I am saying are not equivalent.

 

Yes,

 

Rape is rape is rape. It is awful no matter how it happens.

 

Nothing I have posted in any way disagrees with this. In fact, this was exactly my point to begin with on this thread.

[VedaSloan 119179]

Well, this is really frustrating. Erin, I agree that all rape is awful. There are many posts that were made on this thread this afternoon that have been deleted, and you are not seeing the context in which my post was made. The assertion that I was denying in my posts was the assertion that:

a man just cannot be a victim of rape, because anything that does not involve actual application of brute physical force is not rape.

This is the position I was arguing against, not supporting.

 

The two examples which were given, and which I am stating are not equivalent, are the following.They are not equivalent. Given a choice, I would rather be the man who has this happen to him:

"a woman walks into your hotel room, takes her clothes off, pushes her breasts in your face and starts rubbing you..... You don't know her, have a family and want to be faithful, but can't help getting an erection ... you can't resist the temptation and have sex with her".

As I say I would prefer that situation than being:

"the woman who is attacked by gun point on her way home, beaten up by a stranger, dragged into the bush and raped".

These are the two things that I am saying are not equivalent.

 

Yes,

 

 

 

Nothing I have posted in any way disagrees with this. In fact, this was exactly my point to begin with on this thread.

 

I wasn't trying to say you were supporting Anita's position, you just made a comment about one type of rape being worse than the other, and frankly, that sort of comment downplays any rape that doesn't involve violence and downplays what happened to the individual. It's that sort of brush off comment, like, well, you COULD have been dragged into the bushes and attacked violently, but you weren't, so count your blessings.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

I wasn't trying to say you were supporting Anita's position, you just made a comment about one type of rape being worse than the other, and frankly, that sort of comment downplays any rape that doesn't involve violence and downplays what happened to the individual. It's that sort of brush off comment, like, well, you COULD have been dragged into the bushes and attacked violently, but you weren't, so count your blessings.

 

Well, it was asserted on this thread IN POSTINGS THAT HAVE BEEN REMOVED that anything not involving violence WASN'T RAPE AT ALL. I posted a denial of THAT position -- in other words, I was doing the exact OPPOSITE of what you are accusing me of -- namely, I was arguing AGAINST the downplaying of nonviolent coercion.

 

The BRUSHOFF comment that you seem so intent on attributing to ME was made by ANOTHER POSTER. They were comparing merely tempting someone with raping someone. Being raped IS worse than simply being tempted. THESE are the two situations being compared; it was not a comparison claiming "one type of rape being worse than the other", as YOU say I said.

 

Read my posts. I stand by them. I encourage anyone who wishes to know what my position on rape is to read MY posts -- not someone else's.

[VedaSloan 119179]

Wrinkled, you did say those exact words, I quoted them above, as I will again here.

 

 

 

Of course the two examples are not equivalent. Some rapes are worse than others.

 

 

I don't want this to turn hostile in any way, but I did read your posts.

[buggernot 588]

Read my posts. I stand by them. I encourage anyone who wishes to know what my position on rape is to read MY posts -- not someone else's.

 

You neglect to admit that you in fact did say, "some rapes are worse than others" which is the point being disputed. My interpretation of that statement at the time wasn't so much that you were comparing rape scenarios, but equating one event that was rape to one that was not. The example of the woman walking into a motel room and sticking her tits in your face while you wish to remain faithful, but get aroused and do her anyways, was not something I think you perceived as rape (nor do I). That's human weakness. The example wasn't something set up to be a situation that was against your will, it was more about a man lacking willpower.

 

Erin took issue with the blanket statement you made about some rapes being worse than others, and rightly so. No different than killing somebody...whether or not it is cruel or humane, they're still dead. But like I said, you were referring to one situation that was not IMHO perceptibly rape. Unfortunately, you worded it like that and it stands on its own in black and white which draws attention to the statement itself. Well, that's how I see it anyways...

 

This thread has caused nothing but trouble.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

Okay, I see I am not going to get any sleep tonight. There are three issues at once going on here.

 

The first issue is the entire character of the original contents of this thread, and what my post really meant within that context. I have already done my best to explain that. I am very disheartened that, having spent the afternoon arguing against this stubborn downplaying of the very possibility of nonviolent coercion, and against the stubborn assertion that only physical force constitutes rape, I find myself convicted of somehow really believing the exact opposite position -- the one that I was specifically arguing against. More than enough about that.

 

The second issue is the comparison of the two examples. I was answering a specific question about these specific two examples in my psuedo-offensive post. I did not, and do not, consider them to be equivalent situations; the original post to which I was replying incorrectly tried to claim that the first example was a coercive situation ... and it argued that therefore I had to either accept that that was indeed an example of rape, or, alternatively, to abandon the position that anything not involving brute force was rape. I considered the first example to be only a situation of succumbing to temptation, while the second example is stated within the example itself to be rape. Hence the first part of my posted response: "There is no coercion here in your [first] example. Therefore, it's not rape", and "Of course the two examples are not equivalent" [because one is not rape at all]. More than enough about this, too.

 

The third issue is one that, sadly, apparently is deemed to put-the-lie to everything else I've ever said. Immediately following the "Of course the two examples are not equivalent" statement, I go on:

Some rapes are worse than others. Just because an offense is not the worst example imaginable, it doesn't mean that it isn't an offense nonetheless.

This was a statement made in the context of the original thread, and in response to the contents of now-deleted posts. It was specifically in response to the pattern of argument from my debating opponent. My opponent used the strategy of coming up with a series of borderline examples to try to disprove the general thesis that coercion can ever be psychological -- the borderline examples attempted to blur the difference between mere temptation and psychological coercion, and were therefore working towards the claim that no psychological coercion really carries more import or power over the victim than does simple temptation. It is in this context that I made this "blanket statement", trying to forestall the likelihood of just getting a further responding-series of posts from my debating opponent containing more and more examples, all trying to blur the issue in slightly different ways.If you have any recollection of the character of the posts of the individual that I was replying to (on other threads as well as this one), you know that these posts contain so many provocative points thrusting off in all directions, that it is hard to reply concisely on the most important point without getting bogged down on side issues and deflecting one-off zingers. My object in making this post was to empahasize, in effect, that, "rape is rape, regardless of how one may twist or try to shade the meaning or import of any specific examples of rape". The point I was trying to emphasize was the conclusion of the infamous quote (shown in bold here):

Some rapes are worse than others. Just because an offense is not the worst example imaginable,

it doesn't mean that it isn't an offense nonetheless

.

In my mind when I was concocting this now-accursed phrase, I was working towards this conclusion -- that, in effect, "you can't escape the fact that rape is rape; you can't escape the fact that an offense is an offense" -- no matter what example your hair-splitting mind might come up with next. My debating opponent was the one who was doggedly trying to blur the line, and, stupid me (it now turns out), I threw her a conciliatory bone that I hoped would defuse her strategy and the developing confrontational character of the thread -- if I stated that some rapes were worse than others, then maybe she would be less inclined to throw another set of hair-splitting examples at me, because I'd already acknowledged that hairs could, in principle, be split -- but that the splitting would not matter because in the end rape is rape. I had no interest in making any independent assertion of my own about the comparative severity of any rape -- I was attempting, in the context of the tone of the original thread which is no longer there, to defuse the confrontational character of the thread. Well, trying to be non-confrontational has only in the end resulted in this present further confrontation, with one phrase ripped out of context, to my apparently irreversible detriment. So be it.

 

But fuck it. As I say it was absolutely not any part of my original intent, but now I will argue that some rapes are worse than others.

 

But before I do, I will note what the statement "some rapes are worse than others" does NOT mean, no matter how one might try to twist it. It does not mean that any rape is not rape, as I have been accused of saying. It does not mean that all rapes are not awful, as I have been accused of saying. It sure as hell does not mean that any specific type of rape (violent or otherwise), is worse than any other type of rape, as I have been accused of saying. These accusations against me are all pulled utterly out of thin air, and none can be supported in any way by the simple statement that Some rapes are worse than others.

 

So what might the statement "some rapes are worse than others", mean, since I have been irrevocably tarred by it? Well, let's look at buggernot's example of murder: "killing somebody...whether or not it is cruel or humane, they're still dead." Yes, the end result is the same. But frankly, I personally would rather be killed humanely and quickly (say with a single bullet to the brain) than to be killed cruelly and slowly (say by being flayed alive on a rack, having my belly slit open, made to eat my own intestines, and then slowly roasted over an open fire).Yes murder is murder -- theoretically, the end result is the same. But practically speaking, from the victim's point of view, I believe firmly that some murders are worse than others.

 

Extending the "some murders are worse than others" example to the more diverse example of rape is not as straightforward. It seems to me that there must be degrees of horror suffered by individual victims of rape as well. No matter the "type" of rape. This might, for example, possibly mean that a victim is more severely traumatized from being raped by his beloved father or his idolized teacher, than he would have been by being raped by a random stranger to whom he has had no previous emotional ties. Or it might be the other way around. But in either case, one of these rapes may very well turn out, in the real world, to have a worse impact on the victim than the other. I feel that the statement "some rapes are worse than others" is not trivially wrong. It does not mean that any particular rape or type of rape is not really rape. It does not mean that all rapes are not awful. "That sort of comment" was never in the least wise intended, and, I really believe, does not actually "downplay" or "brush off" anything.

 

I sincerely apologize for the hurt I have caused.

 

Cheers, Wrinkled

[YoungStud 468]

Wow, what a long-winded, tedious and rather precious set of arguments to get to the basic point: rape is rape.

[Suzirider 737]

Talk about Hot Buttons !

Gonna take a chance at getting clubbed here.

(prefer one hard blow to the back of my head, so I don't see it coming)

 

According to the Law (depending on where you live)

some crimes are worse than others, hence assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault etc.

[buggernot 588]

Wow, what a long-winded, tedious and rather precious set of arguments to get to the basic point: rape is rape.

 

Here's a perfect example of making a point where people will read it and understand. Brevity is our friend!

[Ariane Valmont 332]

Rape is rape... But at the risks of enraging some members, I do think some circumstances are worst than others.

 

According to Erin's list, I was raped when I was 20 years old. To make a long story short, I was out clubbing, had too much to drink, accepted a lift back home from two strangers... But of course, they had no intention to bring me home. Instead, they took me to an area I did not know, in a deserted park. Once there, they asked me to perform sexual acts or they would either hurt me or abandon me there. I was drunk, I was young, it was 3am, I had no idea where I was... so I said yes.

 

This was a bad experience but it didn't scar me in any way. It does make me a bit upset when I remember it but nothing more. However, I can think of many rape scenarios who would have left me completely traumatised.

[whatsup 11893]

Of course the two examples are not equivalent. Some rapes are worse than others. Just because an offense is not the worst example imaginable, it doesn't mean that it isn't an offense nonetheless.

 

 

I disagree. Rape is rape is rape. It is awful no matter how it happens.

 

I whole heartedly agree that "Rape is rape is rape. It is awful no matter how it happens"

 

I will add that there is indeed different forms of rape, that being said.

 

1) Non-Violent ( psychological damaging )

 

2) Violent ( psychological and physically damaging )

[JoyfulC 132299]

Still, I think the original message that started all this off is more likely the craft of some troll than a real situation. When will we learn that just because we see bait doesn't mean we have to bite?

[Andee 220524]

I do not mean to deviate from the original thread, but I have a lot of admiration and respect for Erin sharing her experience of rape with us.

 

I had a similar experience when I was attending University back in 1984. It wasn't until I read the perpetrator's obituary in the Toronto Star last year, that it finally "clicked" for me that what happened to me was in fact "rape".

 

This man was a respected city of Toronto alderman and did a lot of good work for the community, but looking back now he had a weakness for younger girls, was extremely manipulative and sexist and he raped me. I am not saying I am happy he died, but I am happy that I was able to remember and come to terms with it. I had buried that memory, that it wasn't until I read about him dying that it came back to me. Fortunately I am older and wiser and was able to "deal" with it now which I had not been able to back then.

 

I believe it had a profound effect on how I viewed myself and my relationships with men. And I agree that rape is rape, no one worse or better than the other.

 

It is unfortunate that Anita was banned, but I must admit, this thread was starting to feel "uncomfortable". I think we have all learned that despite intelligence and education, that there are still so many myths being perpetuated out there we have no control over.

 

I am trying to stay positive, but it's almost scary to think we do not seem to be have made much progress in the dispelling some of these myths. A few days ago while attending the Navan Fair, I overhead a man saying to a young woman (I believe to be his daughter) that her and her girlfriend were wearing too much makeup and looked liked 'whores' and were asking to be raped looking like that. I had to do everything in my power not to say anything, so I moved on.

 

Those girls didn't look to be more than 15 or 16. I am wondering what kind of effect those words will have on them and their self-esteem.

[Andee 220524]

I wasn't trying to say you were supporting Anita's position, you just made a comment about one type of rape being worse than the other, and frankly, that sort of comment downplays any rape that doesn't involve violence and downplays what happened to the individual. It's that sort of brush off comment, like, well, you COULD have been dragged into the bushes and attacked violently, but you weren't, so count your blessings.

 

Right on. And of course that goes for any type of abuse, not just rape. I never thought I was 'abused' by my alcoholic father because there was no physical or sexual abuse, just yelling, screaming and verbal put-downs. Because my mother always reminded us that things could be a lot worse. So I accepted my environment as "normal" and actually felt guilty because I had friends who did suffer other types of abuse and I didn't, so I should count my blessings (my mother used to say this to us!)

[VedaSloan 119179]

I do not mean to deviate from the original thread, but I have a lot of admiration and respect for Erin sharing her experience of rape with us.

 

I had a similar experience when I was attending University back in 1984. It wasn't until I read the perpetrator's obituary in the Toronto Star last year, that it finally "clicked" for me that what happened to me was in fact "rape".

 

This man was a respected city of Toronto alderman and did a lot of good work for the community, but looking back now he had a weakness for younger girls, was extremely manipulative and sexist and he raped me. I am not saying I am happy he died, but I am happy that I was able to remember and come to terms with it. I had buried that memory, that it wasn't until I read about him dying that it came back to me. Fortunately I am older and wiser and was able to "deal" with it now which I had not been able to back then.

 

I believe it had a profound effect on how I viewed myself and my relationships with men. And I agree that rape is rape, no one worse or better than the other.

 

It is unfortunate that Anita was banned, but I must admit, this thread was starting to feel "uncomfortable". I think we have all learned that despite intelligence and education, that there are still so many myths being perpetuated out there we have no control over.

 

I am trying to stay positive, but it's almost scary to think we do not seem to be have made much progress in the dispelling some of these myths. A few days ago while attending the Navan Fair, I overhead a man saying to a young woman (I believe to be his daughter) that her and her girlfriend were wearing too much makeup and looked liked 'whores' and were asking to be raped looking like that. I had to do everything in my power not to say anything, so I moved on.

 

Those girls didn't look to be more than 15 or 16. I am wondering what kind of effect those words will have on them and their self-esteem.

 

What disturbs me is that 1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime and when charges are laid and it is brought to court, HER sexual history is put on trial, as if it had any bearing on what happened.

[Guest W***ledi*Time]

... you just made a comment about one type of rape being worse than the other, and frankly, that sort of comment downplays any rape that doesn't involve violence and downplays what happened to the individual. It's that sort of brush off comment, like, well, you COULD have been dragged into the bushes and attacked violently, but you weren't, so count your blessings.

 

Right on.

 

Just a friendly reminder, once again, that my statement was "Some rapes are worse than others". The words "type" and "violence" are just not present in my statement. The words "type" and "violence" were entirely invented in the mind of the reader. Nothing was being "downplayed" or "brushed off" by me. (It is a simple truism that of the millions upon millions of rape victims throughout history, not all can possibly have suffered unvaryingly-equal trauma. This truism in no way downplays the precise degree of actual suffering of each and every of these individual victims.)

 

Other than this stubbornly repeated mis-statement of my view, I agree with everything said here. I sympathize with all victims of rape and abuse ... whether they believe that I do or not.

 

Cheers, Wrinkled