what prostitution law is best for canada?

[Capital Hunter 18263]

SCC will be hearing from different groups tomorrow. That aside what do you think would be the best prostitution law in Canada?

 

1 - Status quo (prostitution is legal but activities related to prostitution like pimping, solicitation in public place, bawdy houses or living off avails are illegal.

 

2 - Amended status quo (prostitution will remain legal as well as non-exploitive living off the avails and bawdy houses but communication in public place and pimping remain illegal.

 

3 - The Nordic model (Buying sex will become illegal and pimps and clients will be prosecuted. Female sex workers are considered victims of violence and will not be prosecuted.

 

4 - Prostitution unconditionally illegal for both clients and sex workers and pimps as well.

 

5 - Prostitution will be legal unconditionally for both clients and sex workers. Pimping remains illegal.

 

6 - New Zealand model (prostitution is decriminalized for both sides, pimping illegal and bare services illegal too).

 

 

 

It is NOT a debate. It is a poll. You can just check the box and cast your vote.

 

You don't have to comment or reveal your vote. I do dare to say that I voted for option 2 (Amended status quo).

 

ps - It is an anonymous poll and is not multi-choice (there is only one best for anything).

Option 6 added a few hours after the poll opened.

[Sweet Emily J 172062]

I know you don't want a "debate", but I think discussion should at least be welcome, no?

 

I didn't vote because I don't know a whole lot about this in as much depth as I would like, aside from the basics. I do know whats legal/illegal, my rights, and I have also been following some of the other discussions about it on CERB. I also came across an interesting editorial article about the New Zealand approach to prostitution, which sounded pretty reasonable to me, and I thought this might be a good place to share it:

 

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/06/11/new_zealands_model_of_sex_work_respects_rights.html

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Emily you have been around for only a year but debates can get really heated on this board sometimes so I wished to avoid a situation like that as for the reason. Discussions welcome. Thanks for the link Emily.

 

As for New Zealand prostitution law (in which prostitution is decriminalized for both sides and pimping still illegal in it) I think that option 5 is closest to it, however that law is not unconditional (It is my understanding that anything bare like BBJ even Daty is ILLEGAL in New Zealand's prostitution model).

 

 

I wish I could add option 6 to the poll

6 - New Zealand model (prostitution is decriminalized for both sides, pimping illegal and bare services illegal too).

 

I requested mod to add option 6 . I hope it is not too late.

[Boomer 33202]

I voted for number two. I think that if the court upholds the lower courts that becomes the default and we shouldn't need to have further legislation. I would hate to see someone like the conservatives forced into enacting new legislation. Many of the ills surrounding this industry could easily be dealt with and should be by existing legislation if law enforcement and prosecutors were doing their jobs properly i.e. under age ladies or trafficking.

[Sweet Emily J 172062]

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[VedaSloan 119179]

Well, first off, some of your choices are actually incorrect.

 

Here are your options (and the only potential outcomes from the SCC case):

 

1. The three criminal code provisions relating to sex work (s. 210, 212 and 213) are upheld a.k.a status quo

 

2. The three criminal code provisions are struck down (decriminalization).

 

3. A mix --one law may be upheld, while others struck down (eg. Bawdy house laws and the living off the avails may be struck down while communicating for the purposes of prostitution is upheld).

 

Legalization just confuses things. That's NOT what is happening. Prostitution is already legal.

 

Also, the so-called "pimping" law, in actual effect is far too broad, in that it is applied to ANYONE who takes money from a sex worker, including family members who live with said sex worker. It's also redundant--sex workers don't need special laws just for them--there are already laws on the books that deal with exploitation, fraud, theft, extortion, etc.

 

These links will take you to some excellent PDF infosheets that covers all aspects of the case.

 

The Basics: Decriminalization of Sex Work:http://www.chezstella.org/docs/StellaInfoSheetTheBasic.pdf?PHPSESSID=77cdc8f26c478d98611705756a952397

 

Sex Work and the Charter: http://www.chezstella.org/docs/StellaInfoSheetCharter.pdf?PHPSESSID=77cdc8f26c478d98611705756a952397

 

Challenging Prostitution Laws: Bedford v. Canada: http://www.chezstella.org/docs/StellaInfoSheetBedford.pdf?PHPSESSID=77cdc8f26c478d98611705756a952397

 

I encourage everyone here to read these infosheets thoroughly if you're interested in understanding what is actually happening.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I didn't ask for potential outcomes from SCC. I asked cerbites what THEY think is the best prostitution law for Canada.

 

Option 6 (decriminalization) is missing and it should be there as I said, however, I think option 5 is correct as is. It says legalization without conditions (anything related to prostitution like communication, bawdy house, living off will be legal except pimping).

 

Amended status quo legalize non-exploitive living off (drivers, guards, family members), but pimping still illegal. I don't think it is that broad. It is exploitive living off the avails and it is illegal in all laws.

[Boomer 33202]

I spent three weeks in NZ in January, and I found it difficult to hook up. There is very limited advertising, and I visited one massage parlor which was in reality was a bordello, there was a cashier at the entrance where I paid the fee in advance. Definitely the Sps that I talked to where far more reticent to discuss service in advance and were far more restrictive with what was on offer.

[VedaSloan 119179]

I didn't ask for potential outcomes from SCC. I asked cerbites what THEY think is the best prostitution law for Canada.

 

Option 6 (decriminalization) is missing and it should be there as I said, however, I think option 5 is correct as is. It says legalization without conditions (anything related to prostitution like communication, bawdy house, living off will be legal except pimping).

 

 

CH, I hate to say this, but you really don't know what you're talking about and whenever you post about this subject you put out misleading information. And what YOU think on the matter is largely irrelevant to what sex workers (the people the laws affect the most) have to say on the matter.

 

That's all I will say on this subject.

 

If you really want your poll to be correct regarding prostitution laws and clear, your options should be :

 

1. Full criminalization

2. Partial criminalization (eg the Swedish Model)

3. Legalization (regulation by the state)

4. Decriminalization.

 

The end.

 

And again, the reason the living off the avails law is a problem is that we don't need it. Exploitative relationships (what you characterize as pimping) is covered by the already extensive laws in the criminal code regarding theft, fraud, kidnapping, extortion and so on. Second, the courts have not defined what is considered "exploitation." Third, it is paternalistic to have laws specifically for sex workers--we're not a special class of people who need special laws, the ones we've got will do just fine thanks.

[Capital Hunter 18263]

See what I mean. A simple poll asking what cerbites think is best among given options gets this reaction. What options should be there is the thread openers choice. Voting is voluntarily anyways. And the laws affect hobbyists too, especially with Nordic model hobbyists are most affected. It is not always all about sex workers. No more comments from me.

[VedaSloan 119179]

See what I mean. A simple poll asking what cerbites think is best among given options gets this reaction. What options should be there is the thread openers choice. Voting is voluntarily anyways. And the laws affect hobbyists too, especially with Nordic model hobbyists are most affected. It is not always all about sex workers. No more comments from me.

 

Well given that 95% of all prostitution charges are for communicating and disproportionately affect street-based workers and that no clients are dying because of these laws, how the law affects hobbyists is secondary to how the law affects sex workers.

 

And sure, the options are the thread openers choice--except your choices are misleading in terms of the language used and since most people don't really know what is going on, you're just confusing everyone.

[Cleo Catra 178382]

It is not always all about sex workers.

 

The laws about sex work, and what the laws should be... will ALWAYS be about sex workers.

[PhantomKnight 7914]

I vote number 2!

[PistolPete 61421]

One of the reasons I did not partake in this poll, is because I need to know A LOT more of what is exactly going on right now, and if any changes to current laws. I would like to see that biggest issue is that the "sex workers" are safe and are able to work in a safe environment going forward, too many(sex workers) have lost lives in this profession.

[Eric Northman 16522]

See what I mean. A simple poll asking what cerbites think is best among given options gets this reaction. What options should be there is the thread openers choice. Voting is voluntarily anyways. And the laws affect hobbyists too, especially with Nordic model hobbyists are most affected. It is not always all about sex workers. No more comments from me.

 

What reaction are you talking about? An intelligent and reasonable discussion with information presented from people who understand the subject and are actually directly affected by it?

 

You nailed down a set of choices and suggested that they were the ONLY choices. You stated up front that you didn't want to hear any other opinions as if you were the ultimate authority in the subject. Then you act all butt-hurt that people had the audacity to disagree with your viewpoint?

 

Sorry dude. It's your right to post anything you want but you don't know everything and it's incredibly arrogant to assume that you have the final word without hearing any other opinions.

[SamanthaEvans 166766]

And the laws affect hobbyists too . . . . It is not always all about sex workers.

 

The laws about sex work, and what the laws should be... will ALWAYS be about sex workers.

 

I agree with Cleo (and with everything that Berlin has so helpfully posted, above). The laws have always been about sex workers and will always be about us. Laws around the world aim to "protect" the public from us: we're considered to be drug addicts and criminals likely to commit theft and extortion while also being one of main sources of infectious diseases. We're also considered to be appropriate targets for aggression and violence because too many people believe that this is part of doing business and, in any case, they think it's not really possible to rape a prostitute. This week, I've heard and read commentary from people who say they're in favour of decriminalizing prostitution because it's one way to lower the incidence of violence against women who are not prostitutes

 

I'm becoming very irritable when I see anything that attempts to pit the interests of sex workers against the interests of our clientele, as though we are opponents or even enemies. It's not true. Sure, men sometimes complain about prices, particularly when they want to see someone whose time and company they can't afford at the moment. Sometimes children throw tantrums in late November because Santa Claus doesn't appear until Christmas, too. Occasionally someone has such unrealistic fantasies about what a rendez-vous could be like that it's impossible for it to be a success in any way.

 

In the great majority of instances, however, there is no fundamental conflict between companions and clients. We want the same things: to have a mutually enjoyable time together that's safe for both parties at the agreed rate of exchange. No aspersions cast against either party about their reasons for doing what they're doing. No drama. No nonsense of any kind. Just good fun for everyone, with no strings attached.

 

That's why there are no sex workers or workers' groups advocating the criminalization of our clients.

 

Decriminalization is all about the safety and well-being of sex workers. Period. The safer we are, the better things will be for our clients, because no matter what, we are always the ones who are most at risk of harm. Always.

[Eric Northman 16522]

A quick trip to Wikipedia reveals dozens of countries (and a state, Nevada) where prostitution is legal, quite a few of which actually regulate it as well.

 

I feel the subject is far too nuanced to reduce to a poll with a few simple options. In my opinion, if Canada wanted to lead the way, they would adopt a 'best of breed' approach whereby they look at other countries laws and what the experience has been with them. Then they can pick and choose those parts of the laws which provide the best safety and security for all involved.

 

I see it as analogous to the current efforts to decriminalize/legalize marijuana in the US. Smart legislators will look at other jurisdictions such as Portugal, Netherlands, etc. that have decriminalized or have enacted medical programs. Then they can hopefully avoid making the same mistakes over again.

[boink 210]

Voted New Zealand style with a caveat. Need to have a reasonable definition of "pimp".

[Capital Hunter 18263]

Eric Northman out of respect for the rules of this board I am not going to response to your aggressive, arrogant and offensive post making personal attacks on me for conducting a simple poll. I said no debate because I anticipated some goody boys like you will be jumping in to show off and making this thread so negative. I regret I ever posted this. No wonder so many long time cerbites with great past contributions who were posting for many years either left or have stopped posting or posting very seldom.

 

On the results as I was anticipating the amended status quo is head to head with unconditional legalization and also it doesn't come as s surprise to me that the Nordic system has some support too very likely among sex worker (unless hobbyists would like to be criminalize with that law and voted for it as the best!!!). Also as I was anticipating the New Zealand model may not have that much of support among hobbyists (possibly because bare services like BBJ and Daty being illegal or maybe the option was added later than first 5 options, not sure)

 

I would like to extend my sincere thanks to all those who voted in this thread (almost 40 dear cerbites so far in less than 20 hours of posting) in spite of so much negativity and attacks and thank you for confirming the exact results that I was anticipating.

[Eric Northman 16522]

Oh you're back. From your earlier post I had understood that you were taking your ball and going home.

 

Disagreeing with you is neither aggressive, arrogant nor offensive and your saying so doesn't make it true. Any more than you calling me a goody boy proves that I'm supporting the ladies simply because they're ladies. I have my own opinions, my own mind and I evaluate information on it's own merit regardless of its origin. Besides, it wasn't only ladies that presented differing opinions.

 

They made better points than you. They presented a better argument and more quality information than you. You only started the thread. You don't own it and you don't get to make the rules. Nobody other than you is trying to make this into a flame war.

 

Eric Northman out of respect for the rules of this board I am not going to response to your aggressive, arrogant and offensive post making personal attacks on me for conducting a simple poll. I said no debate because I anticipated some goody boys like you will be jumping in to show off and making this thread so negative. I regret I ever posted this. No wonder so many great cerbites who were posting for many years either left or have stopped posting or posting very seldom.

 

On the results as I was anticipating the amended status quo is head to head with unconditional legalization and also it doesn't come as s surprise to me that the Nordic system has some support too very likely among sex worker (unless hobbyists would like to be criminalize with that law and voted for it).

[explorer69 3513]

CH, I hate to say this, but you really don't know what you're talking about and whenever you post about this subject you put out misleading information. And what YOU think on the matter is largely irrelevant to what sex workers (the people the laws affect the most) have to say on the matter.

 

That's all I will say on this subject.

 

If you really want your poll to be correct regarding prostitution laws and clear, your options should be :

 

1. Full criminalization

2. Partial criminalization (eg the Swedish Model)

3. Legalization (regulation by the state)

4. Decriminalization.

 

The end.

 

And again, the reason the living off the avails law is a problem is that we don't need it. Exploitative relationships (what you characterize as pimping) is covered by the already extensive laws in the criminal code regarding theft, fraud, kidnapping, extortion and so on. Second, the courts have not defined what is considered "exploitation." Third, it is paternalistic to have laws specifically for sex workers--we're not a special class of people who need special laws, the ones we've got will do just fine thanks.

 

Great post. Berlin why don't you start a new poll so we can vote on the real issue. You are obviously well informed on the issue and your poll would have a certain level of legitimacy.

[Cleo Catra 178382]

 

I would like to extend my sincere thanks to all those who voted in this thread (almost 40 dear cerbites so far in less than 20 hours of posting) in spite of so much negativity and attacks and thank you for confirming the exact results that I was anticipating.

 

Disagreement does not equal attacks. As Eric points out, there has been better information provided by others that wasn't present in your post. Just because we disagree, does not mean anyone is being negative, or attacking.

 

Unfortunately saying 'no debate' on something you post on the internet is a moot point. It's here for us to read, and respond to - if you don't want to hear other's opinions, then I would suggest to keep yours to yourself as well. That is NOT an attack - I'm simply saying, if you don't want to hear us, then I don't want to hear you. That is NOT an ideal situation - what the ideal is, you are here and are free to present your ideas and opinions, and we are too. NO ONE should have the right to say "I can speak, but you cannot'. That is not a world I want to live in. Please continue to contribute, and please don't try to tell others they can't. We're all a part of this, and everyone should be able to speak. Also: no one person knows everything. We're here to learn from each other, and presenting facts that show something you posted is wrong does not mean someone is attacking you, rather that they're trying to educate you. I am always open to learning more - if I thought I knew everything there was to know now, I'd be pretty damned sad.

[PistolPete 61421]

I certainly agree with Cleo's statement, and thanks Cleo!

 

"I'm always open to learn more"

 

as they saying goes...............................

 

"you learn something new every day" ;)

 

Hence my earlier post, I did not partake in your poll, because I need to be educated a "LOT" more on the topic at hand, perhaps the poll is not giving everyone a true picture, as Berlin set matters straight for us that like educate themselves on the subject.

 

Peace Out!

 

 

 

. Also: no one person knows everything. We're here to learn from each other, and presenting facts that show something you posted is wrong does not mean someone is attacking you, rather that they're trying to educate you. I am always open to learning more - if I thought I knew everything there was to know now, I'd be pretty damned sad.

[piano8950 32577]

[Capital Hunter 18263]

I did not partake in your poll, because I need to be educated !

 

Like I said partaking was never mandatory. I am not a lawyer or expert in prostitution laws and I did the best I could think of with selected options and I never claimed I was an expert. But even those without education could easily realize that this thread was not intended as a legal debate/discussion on prostitution laws (we have threads like that in the proper legal section of cerb). Those who wanted to prove they know more (and I concede that I am no expert) could start a thread of their own instead.

 

It was a poll the results of which was of interest to me mainly to see if amended status quo coming out of OSC has more support among those involved in the industry than total legalization and that to my delight was proven to be the case. Also I was interested to know if support for discriminatory undemocratic unequal Nordic model has support among sex workers and as I anticipated, it actually does. As well the New Zealand model does not appear to have a solid support as much as I thought (likely because bare services are illegal or another reason). So I reached the goal that I intended and again my thanks to those so many (44 so far in a bit over 24 hours) who participated enough to make the poll valid, in spite of all attempts to discredit the poll.