Negotiating

[lipualipua 4704]

@EvaAdore : words are potent. It is therefore important to use them with care. A word wrongly used can lead to disastrous results. I don't believe I am "flinging shit".

[Guest realnicehat]

I feel really sad that an important topic has been debased to arguing the semantics of idioms and turned into a shit-flinging contest.

 

Point taken.

 

Good night.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

This thread went in many directions when the OP was simply trying to deliver an educational message, if I understood it correctly. The words of this message might have been a bit dogmatic despite my belief that the OP is a very articulate and open-minded individual.

 

On many occasions, I have noticed that the elite of CERB community are more towards idealism. This thread is no exception!

 

Negotiators are always going to be there and girls who are accommodating of such clients are also always going to be there. This is called nature. The true questions then: is this my nature? This is what I have control over.

 

I have sympathy for those advocating for negotiating because I feel that they were unduly criticized for simply voicing their opinions. This sympathy comes from a provider that is anti-negotiating! But, I don't see it as overtly wrong. It is simply not my nature.

 

If they are successful with their negotiating tactics, then good for them! And if they failed, they know to which list they have been added. Like anything things in life, it is a matter of benefits to risks ratio. We are all grown adults and each can make their own assessment!

[cyclo 30131]

These are interesting examples, but I don't think they "debunk" anything. Some of these examples when applied to the sex industry are like comparing apples to oranges. Others, might represent a negotiating opportunity, if they are properly understood in terms of the limited and specific application they have to the sex industry. My comments on each example are included below.

 

Most of this has already been debunked. I found a post in a other thread a while back that I'm going to copy.

 

"Interesting.

- I had a barber for 10 years, and although the rates increased over the years, they didn't for me, and I kept my regular every 2 week appointment. This is an example of price discounting offered by the service provider, (in fact a form of loyalty program) not a negotiation initiated by the client. Having said that, some ladies do offer this to clients when they increase their rates. I think the original poster was referring to one-timers and tire kickers. This example wouldn't be relevant to the case of a new client wanting to pay the "old rates".

 

- I have an accountant, and because of the money spent on corporate accounting, my personal taxes are free and I regularly receive discounts on the hours charged. The key to this example are the words "because of the money spent on corporate accounting". It's common for various companies to offer discounts to high revenue or large accounts. It is much more cost effective for them to manage one large account than it is to manage multiple smaller accounts. The multiple smaller accounts may be equal in revenue, but the larger account will be more profitable. Bonus services or reduced fees might be offered by the company as a price discount or negotiated. Applying this example to the relationship between sex workers and their clients, I imagine you'd have to be an extremely frequent client. I don't know whether sp's offer such discounts and what the threshold would be. In any event I think the original poster was referring to one-timers and tire kickers.

 

- Doctor visits are covered, but a health plan gives people discounts/free prescriptions, that not everyone receives. The pharmacy isn't giving anyone a discount or negotiating their fees. They are paid in full by your drug plan. That's why you present your drug plan card to them and they keep it on file. The members of the drug plan have paid sufficient premiums to cover the expenditures and remain solvent. If the actuarial analysis shows that expenditures are projected to exceed revenues, your premiums will go up. This has nothing to do with negotiation or discounts.

 

- Dentists, if you don't have a health plan, and their charging you the full rate, switch dentists. They only charge the full rate to get the full plan pay. If your plan pays less then the full amount, often you can negotiate with a dentist to accept what the plan pays. This isn't really an example of price discounting or negotiation. If anything this is an example of a two-tiered pricing plan in an industry, designed to overcharge or charge the maximum allowed by insurerers. Auto body shops do it too. I don't think anyone wants sp's to come up with a two-tiered pricing strategy. In any event, the sex industry doesn't have an insurance component that introduces a structural difference in prices.

 

- lawyers. Put one on retainer (meaning you guarantee them a sum of income to be available for your needs) and you'll get great service from them, and very likely at a lower rate than any joe of the street, and you'll have access to them whenever you need, unlike a joe off of the street. I understand that a retainer system could be negotiated with some sp's so that both the client and provider reach an agreement on services, frequency, duration, and types of dates over the long term. I don't know under what circumstances or revenue threshold an sp would consider such an arrangement. Once again, however, I don't think this was the type of client and negotiation that the original poster was addressing, which is one-timers and tire kickers.

 

- I'll add bankers also. Once you have a personal banker, you'll never line up for a service. You don't even pay them. Your portfolio is just that important." I agree that this could be an example of a price discount or service bonus offered offered by the bank or negotiated by the client. In this example, as with the accountant and lawyer, the client has differentiated themselves from other clients by the significantly large amount of revenue they generate. How this might might translate to an sp and client relationship, I'm not sure except for the retainer example provided above. Once again, however, I don't think this was the type of client and negotiation that the original poster was addressing, which is one-timers and tire kickers.

[craig101 3213]

These are interesting examples, but I don't think they "debunk" anything. Some of these examples when applied to the sex industry are like comparing apples to oranges. Others, might represent a negotiating opportunity, if they are properly understood in terms of the limited and specific application they have to the sex industry. My comments on each example are included below.

 

I appreciate the thoughtful post. So nice to get a healthy response rather then an insult or a picture or some silly youtube video.

People negotiate with lawyers all the time. I'm not sure why people keep using this example. It is so common its not funny. If you want to go through every service one by one I would be happy to do so. Lets do it one at a time.

[Hud Bannon 598]

I couldn't agree more with what EvaAdore wrote in both of her posts. Of course, I adore Eva and would agree with anything she says! She's a smart cookie and first-rate provider.

 

These women are giving us something precious, and at great personal risk to them. It's not like seeing a lawyer or an accountant. I must say I've been tempted to question rates, when for example the multi-hour rate is higher per hour than the single hour rate. Doesn't seem to make sense to me (I like long appointments) since it's a more efficient use of an SP's time to spend three hours with me than to have three one-hour appointments, with clean-up and transportation in between. I often think it's just bad math when some of these rate cards are set. But I haven't raised those questions out of respect for the woman. It's her body, and it's her business.

 

And remember, you often get what you pay for. I'd rather have a higher rate with a lower-volume provider than be part of an assembly line approach.

[EvaAdore 7767]

I couldn't agree more with what EvaAdore wrote in both of her posts. Of course, I adore Eva and would agree with anything she says! She's a smart cookie and first-rate provider.

 

Awww thank you. That makes me feel really good *kiss*

[Guest ***nsut***jr]

People negotiate with lawyers all the time. I'm not sure why people keep using this example. It is so common its not funny. If you want to go through every service one by one I would be happy to do so. Lets do it one at a time.

 

At this point any example is a bad example simply because the ladies will not have themselves compared to other services not should they.

Why keep trying to push it?

Meg started this thread for "NEW to this?" members.

It was a great topic for the "new" and because the thread is so filled with "non new" members opinions I wonder if it is useful to the rookies. Also IMO that implies that there is NO relationship between the providers and the client therefore NEGOTIATING is taboo and DON'T DO IT.

 

Now without getting the lawyers involved if someone is a veteran and they have a favourite lady that they have built a relationship with and decide that there is a creative way to benefit HER by suggesting something out of the norm as an arrangement then why should one not suggest it?

Looking at that from a practical point of view I would think that knocks out a great percentage of us guys from the discussion and merely becomes a theory to be argued.

 

And to all the new guys out there, while we all have different tastes and ladies we might fantasize about, they for the most part bring way more to the table than a fuck and a blow job so you may want to take that into consideration when contacting them.

[craig101 3213]

I spoke with 3 girls on Cerb last week who changed their rates after I told them I could not afford what they were asking...

 

I did not start negotiating. I simply said, so how much for an hour, and after their reply I said, sorry, I can't afford that, have a great day...

 

And their responses were: well what can you afford?

 

So ladies, when he contacts the 4th lady is he to assume rates are non-negotiable when the first 3 were?

[xxxAxxx 21016]

So ladies, when he contacts the 4th lady is he to assume rates are non-negotiable when the first 3 were?

 

I think what has some of the SPs on your case really bad is that you are assuming any SPs will negotiate their rates. Do not assume ANYTHING ever as assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Best response I give to your post is CHECK THEIR WEBSITES.

If a lady states her rates are non-negotiable and you try to negotiate, don't expect to hear back from her.

I think that was the whole point of this damn thread and somehow that got lost in the chaos.

 

My rates are non-negotiable. I will not bend them, EVER.

Does that mean I will black list anyone who inquires politely? NO.

I'm not naive enough to think everyone wants to spend 3hrs reading up on me just to find out. Some guys do, great!

I imagine, though, that if i was a guy....who's horny RIGHT NOW....I'm not about to go read 6 pages of a lady's etiquette guidelines before getting my dick wet. So based on that information, I see politely inquiring as to my rates should not be a faux-pas and although this comment might get me in trouble i'm going to say it anyways: I'm here for the customer, not just his money. I chose this profession to get laid and get paid. Seems to me some people chose this profession for money alone and it shows when you cannot answer a damn question to a potential client without saying "read my goddamn website u blacklisted fool".

Just mho....

And I know comparing other businesses is frugal to many of you but, honestly, does McDonald's cut you off for asking how much a big mac sandwich is? Cause it is listed on their menu board, they shouldn't have to tell you....right? PFFFFFF...lmao!

 

side note: For every guy who posted in this thread, there's 125 hobbyists (this is an estimation) who didn't post. Let's try and remember that. I have received many PMs regarding this thread, from people who happen to see things they way I do, however they don't post becuase of the negative and condescending reaction from those of you who feel it is necessary for us to see things your way, to make us change our ways and be more like you... I do not try to push my business tactics on other SPs, but some of them feel the need to tell me I am wrong in how I do things. Worry about yourselves and let me worry about me. Everyone will do things differently, and because some SPs do negotiate, men will try to. If you have a problem with the types of questions you deal with in this profession, perhaps you need to find other employment, might I suggest NOT in customer service.

 

And as for the stats posted earlier in the thread...

.... If you counted my vote as "YES to negotiating" you can change that. I am a NO, but I am also a NO to blacklisting a client for asking. That's where you and I saw things differently.

 

Here's a little more accuracy for those "stats":

# of SPs who didn't post for YES - unknown

# of SPs who didn't post for NO - unknown

# of Hobbyists who didn't post for YES - unknown

# of hobbyists who didn't post for NO - unknown

 

Add those numbers to your spreadsheet and let me know how that works out, equation wise.

What you wanna do is take the # of posters for each side of the fence, and divide that by the number of CERB members.

Then get at me with what percentage that was.

[Ashley Ann 75247]

I cannot believe this thread is still going on....I think a select few are really, really taking too much time away from their personal life, only to try and convince everyone should be on the same thinking page , when it is not going to happen..ever...so time to let this go.

 

Need to release a little tension...Why not go and check out your local service provider schedules, choose a lady and book a date! So much more fun & rewarding...

[PistolPete 61421]

Need to release a little tension...Why not go and check out your local service provider schedules, choose a lady and book a date! So much more fun & rewarding...

 

And I have been in negotiations!!! with my small head AND MY BIG HEAD who to see! Luckily for me we decided with a lady!!! yeah!! We went from a booked 2 hour session to a 3 hour session....yummy! :) :)

[Carrie Moon 68826]

re: Haggling.

 

The only time I've seen someone enjoy haggling is on the beaches or in markets of third world countries where people are hawking their wares.

 

The first time I saw it I was uncomfortable.. then I got used to it.. but I never initiate a haggle.. I say no.. but if I look a bit wistful.. they inevitably start the process and I eventually get over my discomfort and a price is set that I can't refuse.

 

Because let's face it.. this issue isn't about negotiation. I think we've clarified that what insults is the haggle. As a brand new unknown client you've got no position with which to negotiate.

Even negotiation in the true sense of the word isn't something we look forward to unless like has been well pointed out there's also something to gain for us.. like a retainer client.

 

Now within the sex industry.. haggling is what most of us associate with streetwalkers and pimps.. getting the quickest amount of money in the shortest amount of time for drugs.

 

Not one woman will get herself excited to have you visit with her if you've successfully haggled her to a lower price. In fact most will blacklist you.

BUT you who like to haggle won't care about that? You'll just go on to the next girl til you find one who will.

 

That's okay! Doesn't mean because you found your 'gem' who is willing to haggle that it's something now to be admired.. for you not to be ridiculed. You still will be!

 

If you say you can't afford a service and she offers to lower her price.. good for the 2 of you. I don't do that.. and most of the ladies I know don't either.. but hey good for you. Win/win.

 

Believe me when I tell you though.. she would have been much happier if you paid her rate. Is she happy to have your business at all? Are things tough for her? Maybe and probably. It's still a win/win.. so there you go. Isn't that all you really wanted? (I"m speaking to hagglers only).

 

You have the freedom. No-one is saying you don't.

Meg was saying it was unacceptable to her. It's unacceptable to the large majority of us. Want that to change? It won't. You will be blacklisted.. the large majority of us find it distasteful, disrespectful and un-arousing.

 

Is it going to educate a haggler not to be one? perhaps.. but doubtful.

 

Most of us want clients who not only pay our rate.. but do so happily. My greatest clients are so grateful for our time spent together that they never bring up my rate even to say 'you're worth every penny'.

 

You've got to remember.. you will always find someone in almost any line of work willing to haggle or negotiate with you if that's what you enjoy. BUT even someone selling a house can be offended by a low-ball offer. Never by a larger one.

[AndreaLaroue 1008]

I hate those calls when they want cheaper its like no, I hate it more when they ask all the thing I don't do...its like what you didn't read me ad? its very insulting to us ladies men! we take the time to write the ad post get pictures taken...post them...then get asked all the questions answered! anyways haha had to say something lol

[Cowboy kenny 50799]

You know what's worse than negotiating ??? Agreeing to a pay a fee for a service and then just not paying it all. That's really insulting and it happens a lot, not just in this biz. As a freelance contractor I find it personally insulting when I do a job, deliver a product, the client get's what they want and yet I still don't get paid.

 

Actually more insulting is when I calmly raise the issue after considerable and forgiving period of time, only to be told "oh yes I intend to pay" and once again not come through.

 

Sorry just had to through that into the mix!

[Fresh start 17467]

You know what's worse than negotiating ??? Agreeing to a pay a fee for a service and then just not paying it all. That's really insulting and it happens a lot, not just in this biz. As a freelance contractor I find it personally insulting when I do a job, deliver a product, the client get's what they want and yet I still don't get paid.

 

Actually more insulting is when I calmly raise the issue after considerable and forgiving period of time, only to be told "oh yes I intend to pay" and once again not come through.

 

Sorry just had to through that into the mix!

 

Funny you should mention this cause recently I had a similar situation were I was stiffed I completed a job for a lady and now she find it to expensive and want a discount.

[Guest ot***amal***]

Wow I can't believe this made it to 25 pages and seems to still be going as well that I read all of this.

 

I think both sides of the argument have made some valid points. At the end of the day I don't think anyone changed their stance either way through all this bickering though. The guys who are going to negotiate (or haggle) will continue to do so.

 

One thing that was pretty clear when reading this thread though is every guy said they would never negotiate with an sp who has "my rates are non-negotiable". Add that extra line to your ad ladies and that should apparently deter most hobbiests from trying as many swore they wouldn't try if that was clearly indicated.

 

Just my two cents.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

I go away for a weekend and all hell breaks loose! I didn't read every post but I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that negotiators don't tip? Why would you tip if you're too cheap to even pay the ladies rate? Just another reason not to deal with these types.

 

I think every lady should prominently place on the first page of their website that they DO NOT negotiate their rate, period. I'm sure most of you already do this. Then the negotiators can appropriately be told to FRIG OFF if they ask for a discount!

 

I negotiate lot's of services and I get asked daily in my own business if I can give a better price. So I understand the concept of negotiating for certain products but most people realize you don't negotiate some things, if you have any class, or hope to. I just had an executive physical and I wouldn't dream about asking for a discount on the $1200 bill. I sold a business and the lawyer charged me a fortune but I wanted the BEST and was willing to pay his high rate! In this situation I didn't want to be pennywise but pound foolish, which I thought would be shortsighted. When I buy a piece of fine art I'd be embarrassed to ask the well known artist for a discount. That would clearly be low class on my part and I wouldn't dream of it. If I can't afford the original art then I should buy a print of it. Does anyone ask for a discount at the liquor store when buying expensive fine wine? No? Why not? Can't you use the house analogy here?

 

If someone "offers" a discount because you're a regular or profitable client, that's different. The key is, in some of these services it needs to be offered, not requested, or you'll just look cheap.

[nntsci 11076]

"I realize that bartering is considered the norm in other cultures and countries but for lack of better words, you're bargining for what is supposed to be an intimate service and this is insulting."

 

I want to preface this by saying that I NEVER try to bargain -- on anything -- it goes against my Anglo-Saxon upbringing. Definitely have never tried that with SPs.

 

With one exception. A couple times I've asked for something special like asking her to wear the skirt in her photos... and tipped for the added feature... That is I am prepared to pay more, but never ask to pay less.

 

But I wanted to point out that intimacy really doesn't have anything to do with the issue of negotiation. In my experience, marital sex is pretty much always a negotiation, LOL. Rings, jewellery, retiling her bathroom (the soaker tub in the ensuite that I never use), cooking dinner, taking her to Nevada, or Paris, etc.. (I'm joking).

[Phaedrus 209521]

Replying to a bunch of stuff from the last couple of days...

 

My posts are there for all to read. I believe I have argued my point of view clearly. For example see post #152 of this thread.

 

You've stated your point of view, yes, but my question remains...

 

Where a donation has not been clearly set, the lady opens herself up to negotiation, which I insist need not be a dirty word.

 

Not a dirty word, perhaps (more on this below), but nevertheless a counterproductive one. Again: it's just not worth it.

 

Why would people negotiate and is it good to negotiate is not something I'm arguing for. It is the freedom to do so that is important and not be ridiculed for doing so.

 

Right. And I'm arguing that any attempt to haggle is stupid and counter-productive in the long run, even if you do get lucky on occasion. Kinda like playing the lottery, but the odds are even worse.

 

So, yes, I'm happy to concede that we all have the freedom to shoot ourselves in the foot if we feel so inclined. What I'm getting at, for the benefit of folks new to this (since this thread is in the "New To This" forum) is that shooting yourself in the foot is a really bad idea.

 

And also, stupid.

 

And yes, perhaps you do deserve to be ridiculed if you try it, having read this thread...

 

If negotiating happened the way you thought it did it would of been gone a long time ago. I suspect that people negotiate because the men are happy with the rates and services they are getting. Unless they are masochistic by nature why would they hurt themselves?

 

Or ignorant of what they're missing out on, perhaps.

 

May I suggest you go back and read cyclo's excellent post on the difference between haggling and negotiation? Although you keep talking about "negotiation", that seems inaccurate. What you advocate is haggling: you're trying to get a simple one-time discount, rather than there being any genuine give-and-take.

 

Or if you disagree with that characterization of your position, perhaps you'd care to tell us: when you ask for a discount on a SP's rate, what do you offer in exchange? If you truly negotiate, you won't find that question hard to answer - and I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd be interested to know what that answer is.

 

And while you may not think "negotiation" may not be a dirty word... can you say the same of "haggling"?

 

I spoke with 3 girls on Cerb last week who changed their rates after I told them I could not afford what they were asking...

 

I did not start negotiating. I simply said, so how much for an hour, and after their reply I said, sorry, I can't afford that, have a great day...

 

And their responses were: well what can you afford?

 

Two things to say to this.

 

First: if they began haggling, that's their right. It doesn't mean it's a good tactic for you to do so if they don't.

 

Second: as I've asked previously, do you really think you got the same service for your reduced rate? If you do, please explain why...

 

I'm not naive enough to think everyone wants to spend 3hrs reading up on me just to find out. Some guys do, great!

 

It's not that anyone wants to... it's just that some of us consider some ladies to be worth the effort.

 

I imagine, though, that if i was a guy....who's horny RIGHT NOW....I'm not about to go read 6 pages of a lady's etiquette guidelines before getting my dick wet.

 

If you're that desperate, I suspect a lady with six pages of etiquette guidelines is unlikely to take last-minute appointments and you'd be better off calling someone else :) Still, I may be wrong...

 

And I know comparing other businesses is frugal to many of you but, honestly, does McDonald's cut you off for asking how much a big mac sandwich is? Cause it is listed on their menu board, they shouldn't have to tell you....right? PFFFFFF...lmao!

 

True, but I think most SPs would not be flattered by the comparison to McDonalds. But if you're OK with it... you said it, not me.

 

side note: For every guy who posted in this thread, there's 125 hobbyists (this is an estimation) who didn't post. Let's try and remember that.

 

I think you're dead right on this... and really, that's the audience most of us are aiming at. We all know this debate is utterly dead to anyone who's likely to join one side of the other. The prize here is the influence on the silent masses; alas, none of us will ever know whether or not we've won it.

 

I have received many PMs regarding this thread, from people who happen to see things they way I do, however they don't post becuase of the negative and condescending reaction from those of you who feel it is necessary for us to see things your way

 

A word to those people: if you never post, you will never persuade anyone of your point of view, and things will never change.

 

Obvious, yes, but perhaps it needs saying...

 

I have sympathy for those advocating for negotiating because I feel that they were unduly criticized for simply voicing their opinions. This sympathy comes from a provider that is anti-negotiating! But, I don't see it as overtly wrong. It is simply not my nature.

 

If they are successful with their negotiating tactics, then good for them! And if they failed, they know to which list they have been added. Like anything things in life, it is a matter of benefits to risks ratio. We are all grown adults and each can make their own assessment!

 

But as I said earlier, this is no longer about them. It's about the audience, who are largely silent.

 

My motivation here is simply to get them to think about the pros and cons of haggling before they try it. My thoughts on that are that the odds are so far against you that trying it is simply stupid, and I'm really looking for someone - anyone - to provide some sort of counter to that. Nobody has, yet.

 

This thread has become page after page of anger directed toward two men who have said they don't think negotiation should be a bad word. I've gotta say - I am starting to agree with them. I don't think anyone should be getting so angry, so insulting, so offended, by opinions posted here.

 

Two things here.

 

First, there are some ladies who are clearly sick to death of being haggled with. You may not be there, but I get the feeling others are... and that this thread was borne of exasperation rather than anything else.

 

Secondly, there are quite a few of people who feel that the wannabe hagglers should be shot down. Some of those are the ladies who are sick of it; some of the others are guys who don't really like seeing the ladies who may be friends having to put up with that crap. I suspect you benefit from this, even if you don't wish to read it.

 

Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. Don't like it? Then don't read it. Move on. It's the internet...

 

Or go ahead and argue the toss, if the mood takes you. That, too, is the Internet.

 

Um.....you're expecting an outcome?

 

Now this, my friends, is a man who understands how the Internet works :)

 

if you're going to take part in a circle jerk try not to get caught in the middle......

 

Unless, of course, your tastes run that way. And remember, too, that this is a circle-jerk with an audience :)

[piano8950 32577]

Annoyingly, I couldn't reply directly to this, so here's a picture.

 

 

I don't care if my views are challenged. I welcome it. But Phaedrus, I do not appreciate words being put into my mouth as you did here. Nntsci's claim on not bargaining for anything under the sky seemed a bit surprising to me. It was not a major consideration to even warrant a post and prolong this thread even further, so I left a rep comment thing. To draw from that and imply that I meant to compare SPs and cars was in poor taste and presumptious.

 

I was about to let it go till I read you doing something similar again here.

 

And I know comparing other businesses is frugal to many of you but, honestly, does McDonald's cut you off for asking how much a big mac sandwich is? Cause it is listed on their menu board, they shouldn't have to tell you....right? PFFFFFF...lmao!

 

True, but I think most SPs would not be flattered by the comparison to McDonalds. But if you're OK with it... you said it, not me.

 

Again you've taken the words out of context and done a simple 'SP to something else' comparison to prove a point. She could've used anything to make her case; it's the act of politely telling a client once again what the prices are when asked that she was trying to convey. I can't speak for all SPs, but here is one example of someone who doesn't seem to mind that question. To shut her down like that was imho, a bit rude.

 

 

I'm sorry if this will derail the thread, but I will not have words put into my mouth, especially when it is something offensive like this.

[craig101 3213]

Replying to a bunch of stuff from the last couple of days...

 

 

 

You've stated your point of view, yes, but my question remains...

 

 

 

Not a dirty word, perhaps (more on this below), but nevertheless a counterproductive one. Again: it's just not worth it.

 

 

 

Right. And I'm arguing that any attempt to haggle is stupid and counter-productive in the long run, even if you do get lucky on occasion. Kinda like playing the lottery, but the odds are even worse.

 

So, yes, I'm happy to concede that we all have the freedom to shoot ourselves in the foot if we feel so inclined. What I'm getting at, for the benefit of folks new to this (since this thread is in the "New To This" forum) is that shooting yourself in the foot is a really bad idea.

 

And also, stupid.

 

And yes, perhaps you do deserve to be ridiculed if you try it, having read this thread...

 

 

 

Or ignorant of what they're missing out on, perhaps.

 

May I suggest you go back and read cyclo's excellent post on the difference between haggling and negotiation? Although you keep talking about "negotiation", that seems inaccurate. What you advocate is haggling: you're trying to get a simple one-time discount, rather than there being any genuine give-and-take.

 

Or if you disagree with that characterization of your position, perhaps you'd care to tell us: when you ask for a discount on a SP's rate, what do you offer in exchange? If you truly negotiate, you won't find that question hard to answer - and I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd be interested to know what that answer is.

 

And while you may not think "negotiation" may not be a dirty word... can you say the same of "haggling"?

 

 

 

Two things to say to this.

 

First: if they began haggling, that's their right. It doesn't mean it's a good tactic for you to do so if they don't.

 

Second: as I've asked previously, do you really think you got the same service for your reduced rate? If you do, please explain why...

 

 

 

It's not that anyone wants to... it's just that some of us consider some ladies to be worth the effort.

 

 

 

If you're that desperate, I suspect a lady with six pages of etiquette guidelines is unlikely to take last-minute appointments and you'd be better off calling someone else :) Still, I may be wrong...

 

 

 

True, but I think most SPs would not be flattered by the comparison to McDonalds. But if you're OK with it... you said it, not me.

 

 

 

I think you're dead right on this... and really, that's the audience most of us are aiming at. We all know this debate is utterly dead to anyone who's likely to join one side of the other. The prize here is the influence on the silent masses; alas, none of us will ever know whether or not we've won it.

 

 

 

A word to those people: if you never post, you will never persuade anyone of your point of view, and things will never change.

 

Obvious, yes, but perhaps it needs saying...

 

 

 

But as I said earlier, this is no longer about them. It's about the audience, who are largely silent.

 

My motivation here is simply to get them to think about the pros and cons of haggling before they try it. My thoughts on that are that the odds are so far against you that trying it is simply stupid, and I'm really looking for someone - anyone - to provide some sort of counter to that. Nobody has, yet.

 

 

 

Two things here.

 

First, there are some ladies who are clearly sick to death of being haggled with. You may not be there, but I get the feeling others are... and that this thread was borne of exasperation rather than anything else.

 

Secondly, there are quite a few of people who feel that the wannabe hagglers should be shot down. Some of those are the ladies who are sick of it; some of the others are guys who don't really like seeing the ladies who may be friends having to put up with that crap. I suspect you benefit from this, even if you don't wish to read it.

 

 

 

Or go ahead and argue the toss, if the mood takes you. That, too, is the Internet.

 

 

 

Now this, my friends, is a man who understands how the Internet works :)

 

 

 

Unless, of course, your tastes run that way. And remember, too, that this is a circle-jerk with an audience :)

 

The gentlemen who negotiate must be happy with what they are getting. As much as that baffles you I think your going to have to accept that. Claiming that they are to stupid or ignorant to realize what they are missing is laughable at best. Who are you to claim how happy they are? The proof is in the pudding. Again if all was as you saw it negotiating would be gone.

 

If you have a problem with the definition we are using for the word " negotiating" might I suggest you take that argument with the O.P. We are following her lead. It was in her first post and the title to the thread. For the record I agree with her use of the word but I will let her defend herself to you.

[Midnite-Energies 110563]

I have avoided this thread because this is not the attitude I enjoy buying into however I do want to make one statement and that is some hagglers, while trying to gain a better price for themselves are actually taking advantage of the ladies and their situation. Yes, you ask and then politely state "it's too much" and the lady comes back with "well, how much do you have" however why do you think this might be?

 

This business is dynamic, it ebbs and it flows. Ladies set their rates base don their own set of criteria however like anyone else, they have bills to pay. Unlike a normal work situation, they do not get paid if business is slow. They may need to take a cut rate whether they want to or not because they have bills to pay, children to feed, families to take care of. They may not WANT to but they HAVE to and they may in turn feel like crap that they have had to "give a discount" on their worth. They may then provide great service because they are good people and good businesswomen. This does not mean they enjoyed the process. The men may think they struck gold but at what cost?

 

Discounts in this business are earned by good customers who the lady appreciates. be thankful for this, don't expect it.

 

The main point here is this is a business of PEOPLE, plain and simple. You are haggling the price of a person. Think about that. Whether you want to pay the price asked or not, think about that. If you wouldn't haggle the price of your sister, mother, brother, SO or anyone else close to you, why do you believe an SP does not deserve the same respect?

 

Find someone you like who is charging a price you want unless they specifically say they negotiate. It's so simple yet such a very big issue.

[lipualipua 4704]

@Phaedrus : in a response to a post of mine, you made some observations that contained two questions. By answering your post , I was answering your questions. You then come back and tell me that your question remains. Well, my response also remains. Talk of going in circles! I am busy at other things right now so at the appropriate time I will respond to your other comments.

[roamingguy 300292]

The gentlemen who negotiate must be happy with what they are getting. As much as that baffles you I think your going to have to accept that. Claiming that they are to stupid or ignorant to realize what they are missing is laughable at best. Who are you to claim how happy they are? The proof is in the pudding. Again if all was as you saw it negotiating would be gone.

 

If you have a problem with the definition we are using for the word " negotiating" might I suggest you take that argument with the O.P. We are following her lead. It was in her first post and the title to the thread. For the record I agree with her use of the word but I will let her defend herself to you.

 

God I swore I was done with this but you in fact hit the nail on the head whether you knew it or not, and why I'm opposed to negotiating. Negotiating, well really haggling is for the man (not gentleman) his way of getting something from the lady at less than her rate. Yes maybe he is happy...really f**kin good for him, because it was taking from the lady at her expense. I wonder how she feels during and after the encounter, probably not happy at all.

The lady in all likelihood was in a financial situation where she had to accept or maybe run the risk of no income. It is unfortunate but true, many ladies may be in this lifestyle paycheque to paycheque as it were, and the loss of just one encounter may mean unable to pay the rent, put food on the table pay the car payment etc. To me negotiation, well haggling just preys on a lady when she is at her weakest, just so a man can get gratified.

Ladies provide a wonderful service, companionship, intimacy, sometimes friendship, and it requires of them to give themselves up body, mind and soul. It has an intangible value exceeding the rate requested. With the bonus of discretion and no strings attached. To haggle her price when she provides such a gift, yes gift, frankly I find offensive

I don't expect to change any hagglers minds, but to those who are reading, keep in mind that haggling becomes a zero sum game...that whatever a man gains from haggling, is done at a ladies loss. Instead this lifestyle should be mutually beneficial, for both the lady and gentleman

I'm now out

RG