Destigmatizing clients, any suggestions?

[Brad 49548]

No one hates the damned stigmas more than I do, but I also recognize that they protect us. I don't really look or act like what people expect a prostitute to look like or act like, except when I'm in a session. My customers don't look like what most people expect customers to look like. This allows us to walk free, with invisibility cloaks, unseen and unbothered by those who might bother us if they were able to see us.

 

Perhaps for single customers, it's more important to be able to come out and not be negatively judged for using the services of. Most of the men I've entertained over the years have been married men, men in position of trust in the businesses or communities, and for them, complete secrecy was probably more important than feeling understood by society. We know the stigma is way wrong. And we know that stigmas often are way wrong. Isn't that good enough?

 

A thoughtful post JoyfulC and one I've been considering, but I think I'd like to disagree, at least in part.

 

I'm certainly not in a position to suggest I know your business more than you do, but would it not be more fair to say that it is discretion which offers the protection you speak of, not stigma? And while discretion can protect a person from being stigmatized, the stigma does not I think help with discretion. After all, stigma or no, you should indeed be able to walk around unbothered and keep private what is private--but should also be able to do so without fear of judgement. Doing away with the stigma doesn't mean a person has to announce they are a professional companion or gent who sees one. What happens between consenting adults is their own private business (be they a married couple or a hobbyist/service provider). The stigma doesn't provide discretion so much as it just means that the stress and consequences of not being discrete are more serious.

 

I would agree with you that it is important and comforting that at least those of us in this community know the stigmas are wrong. But to answer the question you pose I don't think that this is enough. In part it is because we are directly affected by the views of society at large, whatever we ourselves know to be true. Society working under misguided ideas is what can lead to unfair laws and persecution; how often does society actually increase the risk for the very people it claims it is protecting because of its misguided notions?

 

I also agree it is good to have the self confidence to know for yourself who you are and not be affected by the judgement of others, but it is not so easy for everyone, and either way it takes energy that could be better spent elsewhere. Consider other groups that have often been stigmatized by society or considered perverts for their behaviour. Sometimes these groups can take comfort in knowing the truth, but how often does a person internalize--maybe unconsciously--some guilt or fear? In the long run is it not always healthier for them as well as society at large when it is realized that, at the end of the day if no one is being hurt, we're all just people?

[JoyfulC 132299]

Brad, there's how things should be and there's how things are. We all want progress, and a wise person knows that pressure for progress must be applied prudently, or it can result in a backlash.

 

I thought we were living in a country where individual rights were balanced very well against community interests. I have been living and working in Canada since 1982, and have had almost no problems resulting from unjust laws or overzealous enforcement. Quite the opposite! So why rail and stomp our feet if there isn't a problem? I doubt there's much sympathy these days for the plight of internet advertising prostitutes and their customers in Canada. We're not exactly hard done by.

 

Discretion is important, of course, but I think a huge part of discretion is knowing what the stigma looks like and looking like anything but. This is why I get so annoyed with these guys who try to "be discreet" by parking a couple blocks away and sneaking over on foot. That plays right into the stigma, and while it might be done with the intention of being discreet, it is actually indiscreet. It may be counterintuitive to some, but parking right out front and striding up and knocking on the door like you have every business being here is actually the most discreet thing to do, and attracts the least attention and curiosity.

 

We can use the stigma to our advantage by letting people focus on it instead of on us. It protects our privacy.

 

The only thing that I find sad is when I see an SP or a customer embracing the stigma. I have had customers ask me how I deal with dirty or rude or rough customers. Don't they see that I don't deal with people like that at all? Do they think they're the only decent guy I know? I don't encounter many of such people, but I have heard that some customers assume that all SPs are on drugs (I have known very few who use at all, much less more than on an odd occasion) or are all single mothers on welfare. I've heard SPs over the years make remarks to suggest that they think customers have to pay because they couldn't get laid otherwise. We don't see that much of those attitudes here on CERB, and when we do see it, it's usually nipped in the bud pretty quickly. That's the best type of progress I see!

[Nathalie L 112512]

JoyfulC, I understand where you're coming from, but I think the stigmatization of clients has another effect that we aren't taking into consideration here. When clients are stigmatized, and we don't fight that stigma, it can (and does) lead to their criminalization. There are lots of 'John sweeps' happening in Canada and they don't always happen in the context of outdoor/visible sex work.

 

In Canada we seem to be moving towards a model of regulation that would criminalize the clients of sex workers, but not the sex workers themselves (known as the 'Swedish' model, because this is the system that exists in a lot of Nordik countries). It's easy to criminalize clients if society thinks they're 'gross' (etc).

 

That's another reason why I think it's important to destigmatize clients...

[JoyfulC 132299]

Nathalie, I am surprised to learn of john sweeps in Canada not involving outdoor or public venues (such as massage parlours and strip clubs). I guess I'd better google that.

 

I agree that it would be disastrous if the Swedish model were embraced by Canada, but I think the only thing that will defeat that, in any country, is the court. I have lost faith in the belief of destigmatization. As we see with the issue of race south of the border, no matter how hard you try to combat certain prejudices, you only succeed in driving them underground.

 

Familiarity is the only thing that successfully defeats stigma, and if more customers were willing to be open with their families, friends and colleagues about being customers, then that might actually succeed in changing the most minds. Few customers are in a position to do that, though. Not because they fear the stigma, but because it would create serious complications. It's very hard to destigmatize a group that hides its face.

 

For sure, when people ask me, I tell them that the only men I see are decent guys who I'm proud to know. But it's not like I can say, "For example, you know so-and-so? Well, he's my client." We can make the claim, but we can provide no evidence to back it up.

[Brad 49548]

I have lost faith in the belief of destigmatization. As we see with the issue of race south of the border, no matter how hard you try to combat certain prejudices, you only succeed in driving them underground.

 

Familiarity is the only thing that successfully defeats stigma, and if more customers were willing to be open with their families, friends and colleagues about being customers, then that might actually succeed in changing the most minds. Few customers are in a position to do that, though. Not because they fear the stigma, but because it would create serious complications. It's very hard to destigmatize a group that hides its face.

 

I would actually consider race issues an example of where great progress has been made. It is true there are still many problems, especially on a systemic level, but when you look at how much has changed in a mere generation or two there is reason to be hopeful rather than despairing. I'd agree with you it is harder to spot and root out racism when it isn't overt or public, but being forced underground as you put it is part of the process. While I have my doubts that racism, sexism, or many of the others "ism's" will ever be fully eliminated, it's nevertheless amazing the degree to which things have improved.

 

It is certainly not hard to still find examples of homophobia, for example, but look at the progress made by in finding acceptance and equal rights despite sexual orientation in our society just in the last generation. And there are other examples of stigmas which have been all but eliminated. Being Irish in America used to make someone a second class citizen. Just two generations ago people of Gaelic heritage were forbidden to speak that language in school to the point that the language was almost lost. When my father was a child he could be hit in school for writing with his left hand!

 

It is true that, for clients and companions, the stigma is of a different nature and there may never be full understanding or acceptance, and perhaps it only looks like progress is impossible because it is slow, yet over time who knows what will happen? And there are signs of improvement. Never has there been a time when there were so many service providers publicly advocating for themselves, attempting to educate people. Technology like the Internet has also helped. Just speaking for myself, being able to read websites and blogs of escorts, and forums like Cerb have done wonders to educate me on our community. Surely I'm not alone in that? I would even take it as a good sign that, for what I imagine is the first time, you can find examples in popular entertainment depicting escorting as a normal and positive aspect of a society (Kushiel's Dart novels; Firefly tv series).

 

The process may be slow, it may ebb back and forth at times, it may never be complete...but in the long run? There's always hope.

[Ice4fun 78407]

As with most things that people don't understand I think there is a tendency to stereotype... while things are changing slowly society has looked down on sex workers and the services they provide so I guess it is understandable that many would continue to think there is something wrong with clients.

 

I think like most things there is as many reasons why men seek out the companionship of a service provider as there are men. For my part I am just a regular guy ... involved in my community... great job... wonderful family... my initial involvement I think came from purely the excitement of sex with someone new after 20 plus years if marriage but what I came to appreciate especially in the last year is the wonderful caring relationship that can develop with your service provider... it is not constrained by all the real life realities that inhabit us in our civilian lives... it can give you a level if intimacy that is amazing because both people are truly living in the moment they are sharing. Early in this thread someone mentioned the lying in bed holding a beautiful woman's hand and I think they were right it is about those moments and the nonjudgmental conversations as much as it is about the great sex.

 

I think people need to understand that the clients in this industry are just regular people who come with their own reasons and needs... some want the great or different sex...some want the companionship... some want or need a distraction from things in their everyday life. Some are at a point in their life where they need a friend.

 

Hey but what do i really know...lol...i am only one client who strongly feels that my involvement in this industry has been very positive for me.

 

So i guess what I would tell you to tell them about clients is we are a bunch of really happy regular people... so if your dad or brother or husband seems really happy the 3rd Monday of each month....it might be them.

[JoyfulC 132299]

So i guess what I would tell you to tell them about clients is we are a bunch of really happy regular people... so if your dad or brother or husband seems really happy the 3rd Monday of each month....it might be them.

 

When asked, of course we tell them that. But what about you? Will you come out of the closet and tell them yourself?

[mrgreen760 37785]

There will be a stigma until the stigmatized have the courage to change it......and that will not happen any time soon.

 

Peace

MG

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

There will be a stigma until the stigmatized have the courage to change it......and that will not happen any time soon.

 

Peace

MG

 

To the core of the issue. Here we are in a privately accessed forum speaking among ourselves! Are we speaking to the wrong audience? YES WE ARE.

 

Even if we were the most horrible individuals on earth, what would we expect each one of us to say about ourselves (SPs and clients). The conflict of interests is glaring here.

 

Do we truly believe that we (SPs and clients) shouldn't be stigmatized? Then let's face society. It is the society which got the wrong message about us (SPs and clients).

 

If we can't stand for our own case, then how can we expect the general public to stand on our behalf?!

[Nathalie L 112512]

If we can't stand for our own case, then how can we expect the general public to stand on our behalf?!

 

It's interesting. Some people who are really (really) marginalized aren't standing on their 'own behalf' but are being represented by non-profit organizations (Canada v. Downtown Eastside United Against Violence Society). The S.C.C. gave them 'public standing' which means even if they don't have a specific person who stepped forward to advocate for decriminalization they can speak on behalf of workers who otherwise can't come forward.

 

However, given the privilege, both economic and otherwise, of clients in this industry, I doubt this would happen in any court system. =( I wish it could though because the issues are just as important if 'Johns' are criminalized.

[roamingguy 300292]

Part of the problem is the private intimate nature of this lifestyle. There are many people, both ladies and gentlemen in relationships outside of this lifestyle, so they have to keep this lifestyle and the people they meet in this lifestyle confidential or they may very well run the risk of their significant others finding out.

As an analogy, a married man or woman having an affair, irrespective of how great the other woman/man is, is going to keep that aspect of his/her life private for fear of their spouse divorcing him/her.

Second, for a gentlemen to come out of the closet (best phrase I can think of) to say to mainstream society "I'm not a john, I'm a gentleman who treats professional companions and ladies with respect" or words to that effect, well it would come across more self serving than destigmatizing.

Likewise, for a professional companion to come out of the closet and say I'm a professional companion and lady, I'm not a hooker or whore, well to mainstream society that too comes across as self serving and not destigmatizing.

But for clients to say the companions they see are ladies, and they are just like the women you would ask out on a date, the only difference, there are no strings attached in this lifestyle, would carry more weight.

Also, if I came out of the closet (maybe one day I will) if asked, I'll say I have yet to meet a hooker, whore, or prostitute in this lifestyle. What I have met are ladies who have enriched my life, offered companionship which has a value exceeding any donation asked

Likewise when a companion says the men she sees are just like, to paraphrase Nathalie, your dad, brother, uncle, cousin. When a companion puts a human face on a client, it helps to destigmitize him. And coming from a companion it carries more weight than if a client tried to destigmitize himself

A morning rambling

RG

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

It's interesting. Some people who are really (really) marginalized aren't standing on their 'own behalf' but are being represented by non-profit organizations (Canada v. Downtown Eastside United Against Violence Society). The S.C.C. gave them 'public standing' which means even if they don't have a specific person who stepped forward to advocate for decriminalization they can speak on behalf of workers who otherwise can't come forward.

 

However, given the privilege, both economic and otherwise, of clients in this industry, I doubt this would happen in any court system. =( I wish it could though because the issues are just as important if 'Johns' are criminalized.

 

When the non-profit organizations share the same standing point, then essentially they share the same interests. So by intervening they simply protect their own interests on the long run.

 

But my concern is that the "majority" of the society share an unfavorable stereotype about this profession (SPs and clients), hence the word stigma, and therefore is in no position to sympathize with our case. Therefore, when I referred to the "general" public", it was meant to refer to the majority.

 

It is for this reason that I don't think that the SCC is of relevance. This is just my opinion.

[Frank7 3939]

Part of the problem is the private intimate nature of this lifestyle. There are many people, both ladies and gentlemen in relationships outside of this lifestyle, so they have to keep this lifestyle and the people they meet in this lifestyle confidential or they may very well run the risk of their significant others finding out.

As an analogy, a married man or woman having an affair, irrespective of how great the other woman/man is, is going to keep that aspect of his/her life private for fear of their spouse divorcing him/her.

RG

 

Part of the stigma is that client are cheaters. The secrety is kinda comfirming it. In reality, there's two stigma there. The affair/cheating and the seeing providers. The first part in general isn't accepted, be it with providers or civilians. The second part, is already starting to destigmatize. (the articles about disabled people who see escorts, most people are okay with it for exemple.)

 

To destigmatize the part about seeing clients, we'd have to prove that the majority do it by choice and that we'd love to see more severe laws against traffickers and abusive pimps. Then it would be a case of the different types of clients. But as long as affair/cheating isn't accepted, some of the clients will always be stigmatized.

 

If the affair/cheating part becomes destigmatized (by convincing the majority of people that it isn't immoral to do), then a big part of the stigma from seeing escort would also leave.

[MightyPen 67414]

Part of the stigma is that client are cheaters.

Uh... not all. :) I'd guess that's true of the majority, but there are plenty of single guys who see SPs too. These are two separate issues.

 

I think that for all the reasons cited so far, a public audience presented with a talkative client will be heavily inclined to just dismiss the messenger rather than challenge their own preconceptions. If someone thinks that johns are by definition pathetic and degenerate, then they won't want to listen no matter how well the argument is presented.

 

I think a first few dents in the armour of preconception will have to come from someone who's already admired -- the wealthy, the powerful, the accomplished -- who aren't just caught with prostitutes and then scurry away from the spotlight, but actually choose to talk about their motives, their experiences, and their plans to continue seeing them. Their obvious personal merits will mitigate against outright dismissal.

 

With that small question mark planted in the public's mind, there will be an opening for others to say "I'd like to reinforce that message if I may..." without being simply ignored and condemned.

 

Ultimately the stigma will be worn away only when people realize that clients aren't caricatures, but people they actually know -- and I'm reminded here precisely about the way gays are perceived today compared to ten years ago. It'll be the cumulative effect of many large and small acts of courage, combined with the continued emergence of a younger and less uptight generation who aren't still working on Victorian views of social and sexual mores.

[Parker 19761]

I don't think you can destigmatize clients...

Some people don't care for education or to hear anything other than what they think.

 

Trying to change minds on this is like trying to explain that the bible is ridiculous. You can win some people over, but most want to think what they want...

 

What we have to do is teach people not to judge others on things that don't, (or shouldn't,) concern them.

I think the only proper way to do such is to lead by example.

 

 

[Parker 19761]

Heh. I think that would require a whole separate thread... and it wouldn't be worth the effort for either side.

 

LOL! True..

I just meant that 'judging' seems to be a big part of people and even encouraged by some.

 

It doesn't matter if it's clients, gays, sex workers, people on social assistance, smokers, the disabled, pregnant women, minimum wage workers... judging others on matters that don't concern us seems to be something we all do at one time or another.. even though we should really know better.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Part of the problem is the private intimate nature of this lifestyle. There are many people, both ladies and gentlemen in relationships outside of this lifestyle, so they have to keep this lifestyle and the people they meet in this lifestyle confidential or they may very well run the risk of their significant others finding out.

As an analogy, a married man or woman having an affair, irrespective of how great the other woman/man is, is going to keep that aspect of his/her life private for fear of their spouse divorcing him/her.

Second, for a gentlemen to come out of the closet (best phrase I can think of) to say to mainstream society "I'm not a john, I'm a gentleman who treats professional companions and ladies with respect" or words to that effect, well it would come across more self serving than destigmatizing.

Likewise, for a professional companion to come out of the closet and say I'm a professional companion and lady, I'm not a hooker or whore, well to mainstream society that too comes across as self serving and not destigmatizing.

But for clients to say the companions they see are ladies, and they are just like the women you would ask out on a date, the only difference, there are no strings attached in this lifestyle, would carry more weight.

Also, if I came out of the closet (maybe one day I will) if asked, I'll say I have yet to meet a hooker, whore, or prostitute in this lifestyle. What I have met are ladies who have enriched my life, offered companionship which has a value exceeding any donation asked

Likewise when a companion says the men she sees are just like, to paraphrase Nathalie, your dad, brother, uncle, cousin. When a companion puts a human face on a client, it helps to destigmitize him. And coming from a companion it carries more weight than if a client tried to destigmitize himself

A morning rambling

RG

 

RG,

 

I haven't seen you in real life but I presume, reading your posts, that you are one of those gentlemen who are very respectful of this life style, SPs etc. That's the good news. Now let's flip to the bad news because apparently, at least in CERB, this seems to be my specialty ;)

 

If clients are relying on SPs to destigmatize them then they are basically selling the wrong advertisement to the general public! In my view, they are even making a mockery of themselves. What would you expect a provider being paid hundreds of dollars to say?!

 

If you look through history, you would find that every single stigmatized group had to stand for itself and come out before any changes in society could have ever been achieved.

 

Clients plead "discretion" and "destigmatization" at the same time! Aren't the two mutually exclusive?

[Irish Prince 304]

From my point of view I am just a simple 34yo man with a strong desire to be with beautiful, confident women. Instead of fantasizing about being with an SP like most of the world I just go ahead and do it. I only pick women that I click with. I can love someone with all my heart for 2 hours and then I can go about my business.

[Guest c**io**m7]

As a client, I would hope that I was remembered as a respectful gentleman who was a pleasure to share company with. I would hope that I was remembered as an intelligent conversationalist.

[Brad 49548]

We may also find that things improve as society's attitude towards sex in general becomes less restrained.

 

I mean, we still live in a culture where nobody blinks an eye to watch a show where a person's head is chopped in half and more blood than is in the body spatters out...but accidentally show a nipple and all hell breaks loose.

 

However, it's seems like slowly over the last couple generations people have become a bit more liberal in their attitudes towards sex, seeing it more and more as a natural and healthy thing. But of course as long as it mostly remains something society feels ashamed of, then anything associated with it will also seem unnatural.

 

I wonder, in some European countries where sex isn't such a taboo thing, is escorting generally considered more acceptable?

[roamingguy 300292]

RG,

 

I haven't seen you in real life but I presume, reading your posts, that you are one of those gentlemen who are very respectful of this life style, SPs etc. That's the good news. Now let's flip to the bad news because apparently, at least in CERB, this seems to be my specialty ;)

 

If clients are relying on SPs to destigmatize them then they are basically selling the wrong advertisement to the general public! In my view, they are even making a mockery of themselves. What would you expect a provider being paid hundreds of dollars to say?!

 

If you look through history, you would find that every single stigmatized group had to stand for itself and come out before any changes in society could have ever been achieved.

 

Clients plead "discretion" and "destigmatization" at the same time! Aren't the two mutually exclusive?

 

The thread started by Nathalie, a professional companion, was how to destigmatize clients. My point is really a companion is the only one who can destigmitize a client, likewise it is a client who can destigmitize a companion. Mainstream "civilian" society has preconceived notions of everyone involved in this lifestyle.

At the same time clients aren't the only ones pleading for discretion, my experience, the ladies I have seen want discretion as much as the gentlemen. Some in this lifestyle feel free to come out of the closet so to speak, but for most, SP's and Clients, all want discretion. And as for destigmatization, it was Nathalie who brought the subject up, which caused me to think. It was a topic prior to this thread I really gave no thought to. And I really don't consider myself stigmatized, or more accurately, didn't care.

Although not married, and in no relationship, I might be inclined (one day, right now a complication prevents that) to tell my family and friends I've been seeing professional companions. But then again, back in my dating days, I kept that aspect of my life to myself too even from family and friends. But I have always compartmentalized my life.

But if someone outted me, I wouldn't care, it's not like I'm married, I'm a single guy. And I'm not ashamed of being in this lifestyle

A quick rambling

RG

[Guest realnicehat]

The thread started by Nathalie, a professional companion, was how to destigmatize clients. My point is really a companion is the only one who can destigmitize a client, likewise it is a client who can destigmitize a companion. Mainstream "civilian" society has preconceived notions of everyone involved in this lifestyle.

At the same time clients aren't the only ones pleading for discretion, my experience, the ladies I have seen want discretion as much as the gentlemen. And as for destigmatization, it was Nathalie who brought the subject up, which caused me to think. It was a topic prior to this thread I really gave no thought to.

Although not married, and in no relationship, I might be inclined to tell my family and friends I've been seeing professional companions. But then again, back in my dating days, I kept that aspect of my life to myself too.

A quick rambling

RG

 

As this is the second time you have stated this I still have to disagree with you RG. Can you please explain to me how you think you could possibly do more to destigmatize or humanize any of these ladies than what they could do themselves?

 

Yes, society has it's preconceived notions of what sex workers are but I still don't understand how you think you would be better able to alter peoples perceptions.

 

Have you watched Cleo's video from her appearance with Nikki Thomas? (Or for that matter Mistert's?) After seeing that, can you tell me what you could possibly do or say that would be more effective than Cleo speaking for herself? How are your words, as respectful and heartfelt as they may be, more effective than hers?

 

I have met more than a few incredibly brilliant ladies during my tenure as a hobbyist, some who will end up with more letters after their name than in them, others with an intelligence borne of life experience who can read people in a heartbeat.

 

If or when the time comes it will be ladies like this who effectively challenge the escort stereotypes regardless of how many men have lined up to extoll their virtues.

[loopie 15358]

I wonder, in some European countries where sex isn't such a taboo thing, is escorting generally considered more acceptable?

 

My parents are Germans, I have lived in lots of different parts of Europe. These days I spend more time in Europe than I do in Canada, and from my experience I would say the attitudes towards prostitution are fairly similiar. Maybe it's the friends and co-workers I have, but I don't really encounter huge prejudice against prostituion here in Canada. Most people I know accept that there are prostitutes and men who go to see them and are not offended by this. I guess most of you swim in much more conservative circles than I do.

 

However, I would also say monogamy is still the expected norm both here and in Europe. Most people I know expect their partners to be monogamous and would consider it a profound betrayal of trust for their partner to cheat on them with anybody else regardless of whether they are a prostitute.

[Frank7 3939]

However, it's seems like slowly over the last couple generations people have become a bit more liberal in their attitudes towards sex, seeing it more and more as a natural and healthy thing. But of course as long as it mostly remains something society feels ashamed of, then anything associated with it will also seem unnatural.

to

I wonder, in some European countries where sex isn't such a taboo thing, is escorting generally considered more acceptable?

 

Yeah, a lot of the younger generations seems to be more open about sex. A lot don't mind having fuckbuddies, trying 3-some or even being in open relationship. But even them seems to get mad if they are cheated on. The few times I've heard of it in my circles, the couple ended up breaking.

 

 

 

realnicehat:

So we just need to convince society that monogamy isn't natural. Piece of cake! ;)

I don't think monogamy is unnatural, just like I don't think polygamy is. It depends on the person and what they are comfortable with. I just think people should be open about their choice and shouldn't date/marry if it isn't compatible. Just like someone who strongly want a child shouldn't be with someone who strongly doesn't want any.

[roamingguy 300292]

As this is the second time you have stated this I still have to disagree with you RG. Can you please explain to me how you think you could possibly do more to destigmatize or humanize any of these ladies than what they could do themselves?

 

Yes, society has it's preconceived notions of what sex workers are but I still don't understand how you think you would be better able to alter peoples perceptions.

 

Have you watched Cleo's video from her appearance with Nikki Thomas? (Or for that matter Mistert's?) After seeing that, can you tell me what you could possibly do or say that would be more effective than Cleo speaking for herself? How are your words, as respectful and heartfelt as they may be, more effective than hers?

 

I have met more than a few incredibly brilliant ladies during my tenure as a hobbyist, some who will end up with more letters after their name than in them, others with an intelligence borne of life experience who can read people in a heartbeat.

 

If or when the time comes it will be ladies like this who effectively challenge the escort stereotypes regardless of how many men have lined up to extoll their virtues.

 

In fact yes I have seen the video. Have you read Nathalie's post starting this thread. She is doing what she can to destigmitize clients. Saying they are like your father, uncle, brother etc. From her, saying that, probably carries more weight in destigmitizing a client than her clients coming out trying to destigmitize themselves. And one day, maybe I'll come out of the closet (when private personal circumstances make it possible) so to speak telling family and friends, the ones who wondered why all these years I stopped dating I'll tell them. And when the questions get asked, I can tell them what the ladies are like. They in no way fit the stereotype they have of ladies in this lifestyle. In fact for them this lifestyle likely bears little resemblance to what they thought.

I am in no way am saying that Cleo isn't a good spokeswomen. But if I

come out of the closet, do I direct family and friends to videos, which I know they won't be bothered to watch. Or tell them what the reality of this lifestyle is, and that the stereotype of a companion and the reality are two different things. Me telling family and friends would carry far more weight, because they know me.

Would I go so far as to do an interview, no. And I have the utmost respect for the ladies who have come out and been interviewed. But when the time is right, well there are nine people I am willing to share this aspect of my life with.

RG