Destigmatizing clients, any suggestions?

[Guest realnicehat]

In fact yes I have seen the video. Have you read Nathalie's post starting this thread.

 

Of course I have. We all have. Please stop referring us back to it like it is the only valid point in this eight page thread. If it were then Nathalie would not have asked for our input.

 

She is doing what she can to destigmitize clients. Saying they are like your father, uncle, brother etc. From her, saying that, probably carries more weight in destigmitizing a client than her clients coming out trying to destigmitize themselves.

 

Exactly. You say she is doing "what she can" which clearly implies that much more could be done. Granted, you've added a qualifying "probably" to your statement but you're still saying the same thing. All I'm asking you to do is explain how you think this is possible? I think it is great that Nathalie does this but please explain to me how her saying that we are like uncles/brothers/dads is more effective than us proving it?

 

And one day, maybe I'll come out of the closet (when private personal circumstances make it possible) so to speak telling family and friends, the ones who wondered why all these years I stopped dating I'll tell them. And when the questions get asked, I can tell them what the ladies are like. They in no way fit the stereotype they have of ladies in this lifestyle. In fact for them this lifestyle likely bears little resemblance to what they thought.

I am in no way am saying that Cleo isn't a good spokeswomen. But if I

come out of the closet, do I direct family and friends to videos, which I know they won't be bothered to watch. Or tell them what the reality of this lifestyle is, and that the stereotype of a companion and the reality are two different things. Me telling family and friends would carry far more weight, because they know me.

Would I go so far as to do an interview, no. And I have the utmost respect for the ladies who have come out and been interviewed. But when the time is right, well there are nine people I am willing to share this aspect of my life with.

RG

 

So when you do come out of the closet and tell the nine people what you have been up to, which of these stereotypes do you think will have been most effectively shattered?

 

1. That all "johns" are fat, ugly, dirty, drug using diseased men

 

or

 

2. That all escorts are desperate, trapped, uneducated and drug addicted.

 

Certainly you will have challenged their perceptions regarding clients but do you really think you will have that much impact on their ideas about escorts simply because you tell them "what the ladies are like"or what your "reality of this lifestyle" is?

 

Yes, you might get them thinking a bit, just as Nathalie does with the people she speaks to, and for now that may be the best that we can hope for but as many here have said effective change will never happen until we advocate for ourselves.

[Chanel Reign 28097]

Part of the stigma is that client are cheaters. The secrety is kinda comfirming it. In reality, there's two stigma there. The affair/cheating and the seeing providers. The first part in general isn't accepted, be it with providers or civilians. The second part, is already starting to destigmatize. (the articles about disabled people who see escorts, most people are okay with it for exemple.)

 

To destigmatize the part about seeing clients, we'd have to prove that the majority do it by choice and that we'd love to see more severe laws against traffickers and abusive pimps. Then it would be a case of the different types of clients. But as long as affair/cheating isn't accepted, some of the clients will always be stigmatized.

 

If the affair/cheating part becomes destigmatized (by convincing the majority of people that it isn't immoral to do), then a big part of the stigma from seeing escort would also leave.

 

Cheaters. An interesting choice of word. By cheating you are suggesting that one is deceiving or taking away something from someone else. I can't count how many times I have said that sex and love are two different things. And they really are. At the end of the day, where does your heart go home to?

 

So you've chosen to engage in an activity that does not involve your spouse. Do you do everything with your spouse? Does that make you cheating on them if you don't? I know this is a broad analogy but it really boils down to the same thing.

 

There are too many connected ties with sex and marriage, which unfortunately our culture has bought into and forged. In an ideal world this would not be the case. There are still many cultures on this planet where monogamy is not practiced. It is indeed a shame that we are not one of them.

 

It is the concept that we buy into as a society, and that is most certainly changing. We can see it in the younger generation, who are much more willing to explore with and without their partners.

 

I do not travel in conservative circles by any means and never have. To me, these are enlightened people who understand that monogamy is not a human trait, but rather one that is instilled into us by mainstream culture to be stigmatized if one doesn't fall onto the road of our culture. Stupid as it may be.

 

That makes us different. In general, "different" scares people. It is out of their comfort zone. A place most people rarely like to go. So until it is brought out as a normal activity (in France even today many people expect married couples to have a lover), either stigma will never change.

[Frank7 3939]

Cheaters. An interesting choice of word. By cheating you are suggesting that one is deceiving or taking away something from someone else. I can't count how many times I have said that sex and love are two different things. And they really are. At the end of the day, where does your heart go home to?

 

So you've chosen to engage in an activity that does not involve your spouse. Do you do everything with your spouse? Does that make you cheating on them if you don't? I know this is a broad analogy but it really boils down to the same thing.

If you promise to someone you won't do something then do it anyway, that's pretty much the textbook definition of cheating. Especialy true when it's with a religious marriage where you take a public oath to being faithfull.

 

Doing an activity without your spouse is not the same thing as doing an activity you know she doesn't want you to do and lying about it.

 

 

There are too many connected ties with sex and marriage, which unfortunately our culture has bought into and forged. In an ideal world this would not be the case. There are still many cultures on this planet where monogamy is not practiced. It is indeed a shame that we are not one of them.

 

It is the concept that we buy into as a society, and that is most certainly changing. We can see it in the younger generation, who are much more willing to explore with and without their partners.

 

I do not travel in conservative circles by any means and never have. To me, these are enlightened people who understand that monogamy is not a human trait, but rather one that is instilled into us by mainstream culture to be stigmatized if one doesn't fall onto the road of our culture. Stupid as it may be.

 

Monogamy and polygamy are both natural. And both are good (as long as both sex are free to be polygamous). If we check at the animals closer to humans, Gibbons are monogamous, while bonobos are polygamous.

The stigma isn't so much about not being monogamous. It's about the lying that some do by pretending to be monogamous, but seeing others in secret. The younger générations are willing to explore with and without their partners.... but usually it must be aggreed by both parties before it happen.

[Guest realnicehat]

Yeah, a lot of the younger generations seems to be more open about sex. A lot don't mind having fuckbuddies, trying 3-some or even being in open relationship.

 

The younger générations are willing to explore with and without their partners.... but usually it must be aggreed by both parties before it happen.

 

While I would agree that, in this age of putting your entire life on Facebook, todays youth are more open to discussing or displaying their sexual activity but I would argue that fuck buddies, 3-somes and open relationships have been around for a very long time.

 

It's rare that a day goes by that I don't hear a generalized statement such as "it seems like these days there is more _________ ". With the constant barrage of information from the internet and a need to fill 24 hours on news channels it seems like there is more everything when really we are just hearing more about everything.

 

I guess I'm wondering, are todays youth truly more open about sex, or do they just appear to be?

[MightyPen 67414]

I would argue that fuck buddies, 3-somes and open relationships have been around for a very long time. ... really we are just hearing more about everything.

...

I guess I'm wondering, are todays youth truly more open about sex, or do they just appear to be?

I agree that these forms of relationships have been around forever (Ben Franklin in Paris!); it's just that they're discussed more openly now that the once-immovable conservative lid is lifting off the culture in general,* and sexuality is a large part of that.

 

My impression is that young people on average really are more open about sex, and having sex earlier and without nearly as much guilt or fear as 30 years ago.

 

But that said, even if young people's sexual bell curve has shifted sharply in the "permissive" direction, that still leaves plenty of young people on one trailing end of that curve who still avoid it out of fear, or simply choose to abstain, and those who do have sex earlier but weren't especially keen or ready for it.

 

Also, stuff I read suggests that while casual sex is much more common, it's a kind of porn-ified, detached, indifferent kind of sex; and young people are as confused as ever about integrating sex into their emotional lives, and vice versa.

 

* this was almost: "the once-immovable conservative lid is lifting off the cultural pot, and letting loose the thick, steaming, bubbling and complicated stew of our formerly suppressed or hidden sexuality! And onions." ... But I realized the metaphor was getting away from me.

[Nathalie L 112512]

Clients plead "discretion" and "destigmatization" at the same time! Aren't the two mutually exclusive?

 

Miss Jane, you have a knack for identifying the issues in a particular problem systematically and with accuracy. I admire that about you. Once again, I think you're bang on with this assessment.

 

I also agree with most who have posted that it will remain an issue until more people are willing to have conversations about non-monogamy, open relationships, and polyamory. Of course it's easy for me to explain to people that marriages are complicated and not so black and white, that people make choices in the context of their marriages that their spouse might not agree with, that sometimes promises are broken but that these people (some of my clients) are not 'bad' people. People in this industry who are married, as Mirha-Soleil so eloquently stated, are looking for something that is usually lacking in their primary relationships. However, that's not a reflection of loving less... it's simply a recognition that one person cannot fulfill all of your needs. That's a huge part of the logic of non-monogamy.

 

Discretion and destigmatization, indeed. I wonder how that can change. I suppose some of the academic studies coming out that showcase (anonymously) the voices of clients are a place to start? Also, a lot of the autobiographies and narratives of sex workers talk about clients too, their stories, their thoughts...

 

My point is really a companion is the only one who can destigmitize a client, likewise it is a client who can destigmitize a companion. Mainstream "civilian" society has preconceived notions of everyone involved in this lifestyle.

 

A quick rambling

RG

 

RG, I definitely get your point. I do think it's quite powerful to have seemingly normal 'allies' advocate for destrigmatization. It does carry a lot of weight with my friends when I say "I adore my clients" because they trust me, love me, and know me. However, if I told someone I didn't know, love, and trust about my work and the clients I see, they would probably put me in the same box as my clients and say there's something wrong with me (not always, but I'm speaking very broadly now). I'm not 'normal' either, you know what I mean? So I don't know if it's as legitimate.

 

That being said, I do agree with realnicehat that it's really powerful when people stand up for themselves. In a context where that's not always possible (i.e. now with most clients) we do the best we can...

 

Maybe people won't 'come out' as being clients of sex workers, but maybe people will come out as wanting a non-monogamous relationship. Thoughts? [This doesn't address the issue of the criminalization of clients, though *sigh*]

 

 

Yeah, a lot of the younger generations seems to be more open about sex. A lot don't mind having fuckbuddies, trying 3-some or even being in open relationship. But even them seems to get mad if they are cheated on. The few times I've heard of it in my circles, the couple ended up breaking.

 

Is the younger generation open about sex? Maybe. Has their communication styles followed through to support more openness? I'm not sure. It took me a really long time to become self-aware and properly advocate for myself and my needs. In fact, it's still a work in progress and probably always will be as my needs and desires shift. Until you can do that, and do it well, non-monogamy and sex in general is difficult. Learning how to communicate takes time...

[dread pirate roberts 4036]

I haven't read every post in this thread, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

 

An academic study is being conducted at the moment, surveying clients of sex workers - you can find it here: http://www.sexsafetysecurity.ca/

 

I've been planning to do it but haven't had the chance, so I can't speak in detail about the content, but it appears to be a legitimate academic study. That is, it seems like a chance for hobbyists on this board to help the public understanding of what clients actually are like, and clear up some misperceptions: in other words, just what Nathalie was asking about.

[Chanel Reign 28097]

If you promise to someone you won't do something then do it anyway, that's pretty much the textbook definition of cheating. Especialy true when it's with a religious marriage where you take a public oath to being faithfull.

 

Doing an activity without your spouse is not the same thing as doing an activity you know she doesn't want you to do and lying about it.

 

 

 

 

Monogamy and polygamy are both natural. And both are good (as long as both sex are free to be polygamous). If we check at the animals closer to humans, Gibbons are monogamous, while bonobos are polygamous.

The stigma isn't so much about not being monogamous. It's about the lying that some do by pretending to be monogamous, but seeing others in secret. The younger générations are willing to explore with and without their partners.... but usually it must be aggreed by both parties before it happen.

 

I suppose I have to agree with you here. Those darn vows are based on mainly Christian values brought over from Europe. I often wonder when we will eliminate those and create our own to suit our needs. Perhaps never. Certainly not in our lifetime.

 

However, I am seeing more and more people opting out of religious marriages and seeking out other means of becoming partners. Writing your own vows is also very trendy right now, and I have been to church weddings where the faithful issue isnt even mentioned. Similar to the obey vow that is now more or less obsolete. I must say I was rather stunned waiting for the "faithful to one" clause and it wasn't even mentioned. Did the Priest miss it, was it on purpose? I have no idea because I didn't know the couple well (I was the date of a guest).

 

People are also choosing to cohabitate without the piece of paper. It makes one wonder if monogamy is implied or not. I guess thats up to each individual partnership.

 

Polyamoury is indeed a whole other issue. Perhaps I am blinded in my opinion because quite a few of my friends follow that trend. I would say maybe 50%.

 

So the stigma still stands. I just don't think of it that way.

 

Cheaters (as you put it) usually have a reason. And it's always a well founded one. But do they love their spouse any less? Not that I've seen. Sometimes my regular Gents that trust me, talk about this. It seems that at some stage of a marriage a lot of women (for whatever reason) lose interest in sex and the gentleman is left with a spouse they love but that vow of faithfulness has gone out the window. Not to be harsh, but my view of faithful monogamy means living up to your end of the bargain and working on that aspect to maintain your vow. So who is letting who down?

[loopie 15358]

It seems that at some stage of a marriage a lot of women (for whatever reason) lose interest in sex and the gentleman is left with a spouse they love but that vow of faithfulness has gone out the window. Not to be harsh, but my view of faithful monogamy means living up to your end of the bargain and working on that aspect to maintain your vow. So who is letting who down?

 

This is where communication and honesty come in. A lot of problems in relationships aren't anybody's fault, and thinking of them that way puts the focus more on blame than on finding a solution.

 

Relationships change over time because the people in them change, so do the circumstances around the relationship. So couples do need to have honest communication in order to have relationships that are heathly and loving as opposed to a functioning charade.

 

Relationships need to be reevaluated, renegociated, and reworked to match the changing needs and circumstances. And sometimes splitting up is the answer. Divorce doesn't represent a failure or a problem, sometimes it is the solution.

 

I realize a lot of this is easier said than done. A lot of people don't even understand their own motivations and needs, so getting them to comment on them is tricky. If you ask your wife why she doesn't have sex with you anymore, she might not even know the answer, or she might be embarassed to admit it.

[Frank7 3939]

Is the younger generation open about sex? Maybe. Has their communication styles followed through to support more openness? I'm not sure. It took me a really long time to become self-aware and properly advocate for myself and my needs. In fact, it's still a work in progress and probably always will be as my needs and desires shift. Until you can do that, and do it well, non-monogamy and sex in general is difficult. Learning how to communicate takes time...

 

The same problem seems to be there in monogamy too. If you don't know what you like or can't communicate what you want, you won't be happy. In fact, if your needs and desires shift, wouldn't it be better to not be monogamous? Easier to find someone with your new like then hope for your present partner to do a 180 shift.

 

Cheaters (as you put it) usually have a reason. And it's always a well founded one. But do they love their spouse any less? Not that I've seen. Sometimes my regular Gents that trust me, talk about this. It seems that at some stage of a marriage a lot of women (for whatever reason) lose interest in sex and the gentleman is left with a spouse they love but that vow of faithfulness has gone out the window. Not to be harsh, but my view of faithful monogamy means living up to your end of the bargain and working on that aspect to maintain your vow. So who is letting who down?

By that logic, it can be said that the spouse probably have a well founded reason why she loses interest in sex. I'm with loopie that it's where communication is important and they should try to solve this together.

[6dave9 4008]

This is where communication and honesty come in. A lot of problems in relationships aren't anybody's fault, and thinking of them that way puts the focus more on blame than on finding a solution.

 

Relationships change over time because the people in them change, so do the circumstances around the relationship. So couples do need to have honest communication in order to have relationships that are heathly and loving as opposed to a functioning charade.

 

Relationships need to be reevaluated, renegociated, and reworked to match the changing needs and circumstances. And sometimes splitting up is the answer. Divorce doesn't represent a failure or a problem, sometimes it is the solution.

 

I realize a lot of this is easier said than done. A lot of people don't even understand their own motivations and needs, so getting them to comment on them is tricky. If you ask your wife why she doesn't have sex with you anymore, she might not even know the answer, or she might be embarassed to admit it.

 

Well said Loopie,

The dynamics of relationships can change, either by both or one stay straight and level while one can drift, and ideally yes, reevaluation and renegotiation,would be a proper course of action.

It can very frustrating when a spouse will not even acknowledge there is a problem.

I will add it up as "Life is about choices..'

-Choice of prioritizing.

-Choice of facing fears.

-Choice to communicate or not

or Choice to just plain ignore the issue.. e.g. oh we're not going to talk about that again are we.?!?!

There are other examples, but I will stop here.

 

Your 4th paragraphs is also just, however, i believe a spouse knows very well why they dont want sex any more..

Again, Ill stop here..

Thanks

D.