Police sting

[Ice4fun 78407]

I think it's great that some people who received visits felt at ease with the police. However, there are reports from some workers who felt intimidated. From what I hear, the police who visited spas came with a female officer and left business cards. Some of the independent providers who received a visit received four male officers and a number written on a scrap of paper. That's a big difference in how the visits were conducted. Also, a spa is a space that is publicly known, and there is usually more than one attendant present. Most incall locations are not -- that's why independent providers do not list their addresses in their ads. The police booked with independents as a guest, meaning that provider was expecting a client, not four police officers. Think about the power dynamics when you have a single, usually female provider, who may be dressed in lingerie, alone with four men.

 

Nat and I were discussing this and she gave me the perfect comparison: what if the police went around knocking on all the doors of married people to find victims of domestic violence? I doubt that would be very well received.

 

I would also be curious as to whether any male providers were visited. Or do the police think that only female providers can be victims of trafficking?

 

I think Nat's comparison hits the nail right on the head.... while I can accept that the intention of this action by the police may be well intentioned it is ill conceived and poorly executed. They would not take this approach with any other legal business operations.

[Guest S****r]

It it is comforting to read the supportive comments by the men on this website. They reflect your higher understanding of us women and this industry.

I, too, read the comments on the other website, and was horrified at the attitude of a few of the men on there. Thank you so much to the men of CERB. You are FIRST in my books.

[Liv Waters 52361]

Respectfully, some of the searches of the spas went down differently than they did for indies working by themselves with four officers showing up at the door. There is an issue of duress to factor in. To attempt to exercise your rights when you expect a client to show up and it's the police is extremely difficult, at best. SPs have reported feeling pressured to show their ID regardless of their official rights. Some have noted that they felt obligated to let the police into their spaces because they did not want all of the attention that a group of people like this would bring to their incall space. And, technically, the body house laws are still on the books. More, if working out of an apartment, one can be evicted if the building manager or landlord gets the hint that you're providing sexual services from your residence (no running businesses allowed). Complaining to the police on an individual basis does little when this is a national initiative. Instead a number of sex workers rights organizations and allies are taking the challenging piece on in a joint way.

[Paradise Spa 24019]

Ya I know and I feel for ALL these ladies :( I could just imagine how they must of felt :( So anyway I can help I am here for anyone xo Angie

 

Respectfully, some of the searches of the spas went down differently than they did for indies working by themselves with four officers showing up at the door. There is an issue of duress to factor in. To attempt to exercise your rights when you expect a client to show up and it's the police is extremely difficult, at best. SPs have reported feeling pressured to show their ID regardless of their official rights. Some have noted that they felt obligated to let the police into their spaces because they did not want all of the attention that a group of people like this would bring to their incall space. And, technically, the body house laws are still on the books. More, if working out of an apartment, one can be evicted if the building manager or landlord gets the hint that you're providing sexual services from your residence (no running businesses allowed). Complaining to the police on an individual basis does little when this is a national initiative. Instead a number of sex workers rights organizations and allies are taking the challenging piece on in a joint way.

[Paradise Spa 24019]

Yes I have read all of the articles and comments.....and yes I agree with you 100 percent.....hence why I offered my support and knowledge and words of encouragement for those whom feel they were abused by this approach in order to improve the situation....we cannot change the past but feedback/complaints to the police will assist in making a more positive approach in the future :)

[fortunateone 156618]

All I can say is that it just pleases me to pieces that no police agency west of Alberta participated in this farce.

 

They've listed Calgary and Edmonton, but i kind of doubt that either of those cities did what Ottawa did. They both already have protocols in place for accessing sps, they have indy and massage licensing, so the issue of coercion and age is already checked as far as they are concerned for the same group that Ottawa seemed to feel were most 'at risk'. (mature independents and spa attendants in other words).

 

fwiw, they are going to milk that 15 year old found in Halton for the next two years.

[Brad 49548]

I think it's a good thing if the police want to reach out to offer support, and obviously we all would want anyone who is being abused or exploited to have support.

 

But can anyone justify why achieving the above would take a surprise visit from several uniformed officers or a deception about who is going to show up at your door? How does that increase trust?

 

I mean, if a police officer called or p.m.'d, identified themselves, and then simply gave a friendly message that if ever the person needed help (for any reason, not just in case they are underage or being coerced) and left it at that, wouldn't this achieve the same goal, but without causing intimidation or wasted time?

 

I'm all for the police taking on a supportive role with the community, and being a force that those in the industry feel they can comfortably reach out to. But doing it this way seems like it just further alienates and stigmatizes those they are supposedly reaching out to help.

[backrubman 64800]

If they booked an appointment, then it seems to me that they should have to pay, no?

 

Exactly. So if they pay for the appointment and only search with permission, well what they do on their appointment time as long as it is ok with the SP... but I doubt they paid for their appointments.

 

Given the current state of the Prostitution laws I think they should be obligated to pay for their appointments just like if they were visiting any other professional.

 

Would be interesting if an SP sent them an invoice and took it to small claims court if they didn't pay up :)

[Paradise Spa 24019]

Totally agree with you Brad....it appears that the same thought and level of respect was not given to the independent SP's....IMHO to earn trust of all ladies in the sex trade would be to have an honest approach meaning properly identifying themselves that they are police officers while reaching out to sex workers, producing professional business cards and opening the doors properly to earn there trust if they are ever needed in the future....booking appointments deceptively is unprofessional and dishonest to say the least! In order for the police to earn the trust of ALL sex workers they need to start on a good foot in an honest manner!

 

I think it's a good thing if the police want to reach out to offer support, and obviously we all would want anyone who is being abused or exploited to have support.

 

But can anyone justify why achieving the above would take a surprise visit from several uniformed officers or a deception about who is going to show up at your door? How does that increase trust?

 

I mean, if a police officer called or p.m.'d, identified themselves, and then simply gave a friendly message that if ever the person needed help (for any reason, not just in case they are underage or being coerced) and left it at that, wouldn't this achieve the same goal, but without causing intimidation or wasted time?

 

I'm all for the police taking on a supportive role with the community, and being a force that those in the industry feel they can comfortably reach out to. But doing it this way seems like it just further alienates and stigmatizes those they are supposedly reaching out to help.

[Kathryn Bardot 99339]

I am not sure where this idea of uniformed officers going to incalls is coming from. Every story I have heard of independents getting visits, it has been from officers in plainclothes.

[roamingguy 300292]

It actually seems so counter productive. Now ladies will definitely see the police as the enemy, not as someone to go to if they do run into trouble.

Intimidation is something LE should use on those engaged in illegal activities, prostitution is not illegal. I wonder how much LE resources have been directed towards pimps (and yes police know who the pimps are) in this sweep

LE (and the government by extension) has a very condescending and paternalistic attitude "we know what's best for you" attitude, and doesn't recognize that consenting adults can enter into a sex for money relationship that is mutually beneficial. They must still cling to 19th century Victorian beliefs about sex, when we are in the 21st century

A rambling

RG

[CMJ 14869]

I would be interested in seeing the list of spas and indy's they visited. My understanding is that they only visited well established and reputable providers, spa's etc. I believe it was mentioned already, however its mind boggling to me that this is where they would focus their resources. What research did they do to come up with the 29 places they paid a visit to? I would also like to see a list of people and places they "rescued" anyone from. I distinctly remember being told by one of the male officers, they had just rescued a woman who they found in a high rise condo building who was brought to Ottawa from New York to work in a nail salon but ended up being forced to perform sexual services just to be fed.

 

Obviously, this information pulls at my heart strings and of course I was fully cooperative - however, I was diligent and confirmed with a superior officer that what they were in fact allowed to be doing what they were doing. I am a wee bit suspicious about liaisons and outreach visits after Rohan was found to be a fraud. It's important to be respectful and cooperative, but to remain astute.

 

Do they honestly believe that people and places that are so well reviewed and admired by communities such as CERB and TERB would be involved in illegal activities such as human trafficking and employing underage women?

 

I would suggest that focusing on shady bait and switch ads, ads that say "fresh off the boat" or "just arrived in Canada". Also owners of businesses, pimps and johns that have reputations for being violent, encouraging extras, providing their girls with drugs or have a previous history of breaking the law would be a better place to start rather then focusing on some of the places they did.

 

Also of interest to me would be whether they went into any strip clubs? From what I have heard, especially in larger metropolitan cities there is allegedly, issues with illegal workers.

 

I believe that to traffic human beings from country to country without legal documentation, one needs to be "connected" or to be "paying people off" to turn their heads. One also needs to be a very cold and evil person to force anyone to do something that they aren't wanting to do.

[Guest S****r]

I just wish all these comments and sentiments were being heard by the police and the general public. I noticed most news reports had their comment feature disabled.

[fortunateone 156618]

Totally agree with you Brad....it appears that the same thought and level of respect was not given to the independent SP's....IMHO to earn trust of all ladies in the sex trade would be to have an honest approach meaning properly identifying themselves that they are police officers while reaching out to sex workers, producing professional business cards and opening the doors properly to earn there trust if they are ever needed in the future....booking appointments deceptively is unprofessional and dishonest to say the least! In order for the police to earn the trust of ALL sex workers they need to start on a good foot in an honest manner!

 

 

My guess is that in a spa, the attendants and management have each other as witnesses. In an indy setting, she only has herself to back up her story.

 

They did what they did because they could get away with it, and because they made assumptions that were not based in incall/indoor worker reality.

 

The story someone mentions of the nail salon worker, to me, that is an obvious and easy person to find. All asian ads that are not in actual massage parlour locations, where multiple sps are available, and some dude is answering the phone making the appointments? If you want to find someone who says they are trafficked, forced or tricked, that is where you will find them. However, they have to be prepared for the other reality, that these sps were not tricked or forced, they are perfectly willing to pay the fees required to come here to work illegally.

 

However by definition they are 'victims' of trafficking. They are just cannot be automatically, as the chief wants to say, victims of sex slavery. It is,, to me an exploitive set up. High services, usually a condition of employment but also because they may be informed it is all safe for them, lack of testing and std education are common in other countries, lower rates than their legal counterparts, mostly to encourage the kind of volume they need to make a big profit before their visa time is up, and to repay the debt to come here.

[canuckhooker 19203]

I have a couple of theories on this. One is based on the fact that they did their homework, but poorly. I would have graded it an F. Some of the news coverage says that the police said they checked out online boards and ads. There was often screen shots of CERB as well as some photos I recognized from some providers sites. Perhaps they looked for keywords or phrases in certain SPs ads, their posting patterns and maybe even if the paid to advertise on this board.

 

Ads with phrases like "naughty schoolgirl, young and perky, daddy's girl etc." could have been something they searched on. Or assumed if they weren't a paid advertiser maybe they were being pimped. Again, I don't think that, but who knows what logic an outsider has. Who knows what put up a red flag to them.

 

The other theory is that they have a bit of a bloody nose after the Bedford decision and decided that a good old witch-hunt would make them feel more useful. I hate that theory, but it is not outside the realm of possibilty. This kind of "jackboot" policing has no place in a democratic country.

 

Either way it was disgraceful conduct. They had the means to contact all these women, without resulting to those tactics. They are being disingenuous when they say they were doing it to protect people being trafficked. They were doing it to show who is still the boss.

[whiteman 14028]

Totally agree with you Brad....it appears that the same thought and level of respect was not given to the independent SP's....IMHO to earn trust of all ladies in the sex trade would be to have an honest approach meaning properly identifying themselves that they are police officers while reaching out to sex workers, producing professional business cards and opening the doors properly to earn there trust if they are ever needed in the future....booking appointments deceptively is unprofessional and dishonest to say the least! In order for the police to earn the trust of ALL sex workers they need to start on a good foot in an honest manner!

I wonder how much the differences in treatment had to do with those who had ready access to legal advice, and those that didn't? It's possible that those LE sent to larger establishments were told to, "handle with extra care" by their supervisors.

 

I think the project planners may have had a genuine desire to turn over a new leaf with police relations to sex workers, now that the laws are changing. But the problem might have been in the fact that individual officers and/or police forces are still stuck in their adversarial attitudes. Perhaps the outreach program was too early for the police, as well as the SW's?

[fortunateone 156618]

One thing that I question, maybe someone who went thru this or knows someone can answer:

 

the police in the report claim that they were interviewing the sps visited.

 

How many who went thru this can honestly say they felt like this was an interview, and not an interrogation?

[arlofan 202]

It's very fine line between an interview and an interrogation. Unfortunately a lot of those on the force today are getting their techniques from police shows on TV and we all know how inaccurate they are. BTW, have noticed that a large number of SPs have pulled their ads from BP Halifax and suspect that will be the norm for awhile.

[MNO4 789]

Listen. Everyone knows that there are women at risk here. More of them than are realized. And the cops have no idea what they are walking into. There could be a pimp in there. An angry violent one even. And if an sp is being there against her will she is not just going to say it. They need to make their presence known and ask challenging questions.

Finally this trade skirts ever developing laws at best and so it should come as no surprise to anyone that it attracts le. And I'd rather know they are around because they can make it safer.

[whiteman 14028]

Listen. Everyone knows that there are women at risk here. More of them than are realized. And the cops have no idea what they are walking into. There could be a pimp in there. An angry violent one even. And if an sp is being there against her will she is not just going to say it. They need to make their presence known and ask challenging questions.

Finally this trade skirts ever developing laws at best and so it should come as no surprise to anyone that it attracts le. And I'd rather know they are around because they can make it safer.

I understand the need to be careful about a pimp, but once they've made their rounds and determined that there is no one else in there, why remain in hostile mode? They should change to sympathetic mode. Just explain that they were checking for pimps, and now they are ready to help if she wants it.

[canuckhooker 19203]

Listen. Everyone knows that there are women at risk here. More of them than are realized. And the cops have no idea what they are walking into. There could be a pimp in there. An angry violent one even. And if an sp is being there against her will she is not just going to say it. They need to make their presence known and ask challenging questions.

Finally this trade skirts ever developing laws at best and so it should come as no surprise to anyone that it attracts le. And I'd rather know they are around because they can make it safer.

 

Don't cloud the issue by buying into the flawed logic and lies of LE and the abolitionists. There were many different ways they could have engaged SPs but they didn't. Did they talk to a group like POWER? Nope. And trust me groups like POWER would not tolerate for one minute human trafficking or abusive pimps. I would wager they would be the one's calling LE if they knew of underage, trafficked or abused women.

 

They didn't go after the younger at risk girls. In Ottawa almost every lady they went after were established, well regarded SPs who all are older than 25 and advertise as such.

 

The way they approached these solo SP's compared to how they went to the spas and agencies says volumes about the intent. They were polite and sent only two officers (I was told one was female) to the spas. They identified themselves gave out business cards etc. Of course the spas have security cameras and there was more than one person working so there were witnesses.

 

 

For the solo SPs they booked under false pretenses, arranged it so that they could surprise the SP with their "show of force", (4 to 5 male officers). They didn't hand out business cards, they refused to provide names and badge numbers and behaved in a rude and threatening manner. I am surprised they didn't show up in brown shirts ready to hand out black triangles. (look it up)

 

Their behaviour was an infringement of human and civil rights, their attitude was appalling, and now they are lying about or denying some of their worse abuses. And this comment comes from me, who is usually a big supporter of LE knowing they often have a difficult job to do. However I also recognize that there are a number of assholes out their carrying badges and guns, and sullying the reputation of the good cops. It seems they all were assigned to this detail.

 

Don't you find it ironic that the way they try and combat human trafficking and protect vulnerable women is by surprising women who are alone, by showing up with a large number of armed men, who behaved in a bullying manner? Some example they set. They should be ashamed of their tactics rather than trying to justify them in the media.