How would you deal with a Nordic-style law in Canada?

[TheRiddlerMan 872]

I've seen multiple reports in the media that this is exactly the route the government is taking as a result of the recent court decision. Sex workers are all victims regardless of what they claim, so go after the johns. Politicians don't do nuance, not when it's so easy to apply the usual labels. I suspect the Conservatives will take an even harder line than the Swedes did, and possibly make it a broader sweep (strip clubs, places like CMJ, etc.).

 

So when this becomes law, what will you do? Personally, the life-destroying possibility of being charged is enough to keep me out of the game, especially since I think sites like this one would not survive (since it revolves around activities that will be illegal once the law passes). The risk just will not be worth it, sadly.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

This is where the Darwinian theory of evolution and natural selection comes into play!

[Miss S. Lane 67128]

Nordic laws won't fly... Regardless of what media says. I am waiting to see how things play out before jumping to conclusions.

[roamingguy 300292]

Irrespective of what we think, do you think police are going to be given bigger budgets to target clients seeing escorts/courtesans. And they will need bigger budgets. My guess LE focus is still going to be on street prostitution. Those prostitutes they can see. I think seeing professional companions who operate discretely are for the most part going to be ignored because they are out of sight.

Anyhow, not going to judge or worry about it, not a bridge we have crossed yet.

A quick off the cuff rambling

RG

[Ice4fun 78407]

All indications are that this will be the model that the government intends to follow as I think it will play very well to the conservatives right wing support base.

 

Unfortunately this approach will do nothing to improve he lives of sex workers who have been mistreated or forced into the business but instead will make their life worse as they reinvent their business to cover for the increased risk service users will feel. Screening will be virtually impossible for street workers and they will be at even more risk.

 

For those Service Providers who have entered this business of their own choice and who have created a business for them selves they will see a significant portion of their clients disappear.

 

So things will be worse for everyone but the government will get to look like it is tough on the sex industry and it's imagined negative impact on women.

 

For most things in my life I am an optimist and I am hopeful that as this dialogue continues during the next year that Canadians will in their comments demonstrate the enlightened understanding of thus topic that I know exists just below the current moral charade that prostitution is not a topic good people support.

 

I gave been encouraged with the recent media coverage of the issue that is presenting what I see as a more balanced narrative.

 

For me personally I am not get ready to throw in the towel....

 

Just my opinion

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

I feel that screening of both clients AND providers will become much more important. No more of taking chances with new providers that no one has seen. Those providers that have a verified presence will continue to do well. However, those new ones just starting out and have no presence will have difficulties.

 

Just my thought.

[canuckhooker 19203]

Despite what the politicians say right now, most of that is to appease the abolitionists and make it look like they are doing something. They have no appetite for making this an issue.

 

Also they will not implement the Nordic model. They know it has the same inherent issues that the over turned sections of the Criminal Code had. It brings back a prohibition on bawdy houses, living off the avails and to some extent the soliciting provision. All that will do is bring the issue back to the front page, where they don't want it to be. The first charge that is laid will be overturned by the first judge that sees the case. Judges don't like having their convictions reversed or judgements overturned, which will happen if they try and convict with the Nordic model.

 

Regardless of what you think of them, most politicians are not stupid, and realize that this is the same laws in a different guise. They cannot let sexworkers work legally and then put the same restrictions in place, which is how the Nordic model works.

 

They will either outright criminalize all aspects or regulate the trade. It is their only two real options.

[Guest S****r]

I feel that screening of both clients AND providers will become much more important. No more of taking chances with new providers that no one has seen. Those providers that have a verified presence will continue to do well. However, those new ones just starting out and have no presence will have difficulties.

 

Just my thought.

 

Those are my thoughts, too.

 

I also think guys will realize that once they have found a reputable escort, they will be more likely to frequent her only because it will remove the risk of mistakenly booking with an undercover cop.

[Miss S. Lane 67128]

Just like in the US, P411 and Date Check will have to be more widely used here.

[drlove 37204]

If a Nordic approach is introduced in Canada, how far do you believe LE will go in pursuit of hobbyists? Will Cerb become a "no go" zone? What about setting up appointments? Will we have to go the route of exchanging private numbers for fear of wiretaps? I know that sounds like a bit much, but with the Orwellian regime we now seem to be living in, I'm not so sure anymore - I guess I'd be waiting for the cops to bust down my door lol...

[Phaedrus 209521]

So when this becomes law, what will you do? Personally, the life-destroying possibility of being charged is enough to keep me out of the game, especially since I think sites like this one would not survive (since it revolves around activities that will be illegal once the law passes). The risk just will not be worth it, sadly.

 

First thing to say... right now, I have no idea what I'll do, and no plans to acquire one. Entertaining though all the speculation may be, none of us really know what legislation - if any - will eventually become law. The fine details are likely to matter more than the broad direction of it, and the attitude of local LE will certainly matter more than either.

 

Unless things change really drastically - which I doubt - I don't think seeing a well-established independent provider will be any riskier than it is today.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

I believe this is not going to affect us on this level of working. I believe they will be targeting street level workers. It is to appease certain groups to keep their votes, so by targeting the street level, it allows Harper's government to have the pat on their back they want and keeps it from eye view. They could not possibly "man" every escort/incall or out. That would just not be reasonable for the cost it would have.

 

I think we will have more gent's sticking to just a few ladies that they have already met or who have tried, tested and true, rather then taking a shot in the dark on CL or whatever.

 

I don't think it is going to be as bad as some are predicting, unless your booking street workers, minors and known trouble makers.

 

Just a few more thoughts to add:

Perhaps payment methods may change, maybe the way we advertise? I dunno the legalities, but perhaps payment for time spent only, if that is the case we probably wont want to say " I offer BBBJ, DATY etc..." as that would/could be used against you if court? Remembering evidence building, if you don't give them the evidence, then charges can't stick. No cash found on site? No ads or calls stating BBJ, DATY etc...then maybe it was for time spent only? Creating reasonable doubt?

References are going to tight, both ways client and provider.

[TheRiddlerMan 872]

Speculation in the sense that no law has been presented yet, true. I think there's plenty of evidence to support the Nordic model going ahead, though.

 

For one, Conservative MPs have been actively promoting this model to the press (I've read stories in the Citizen and CBC.CA to that effect), which given the control exerted by the PMO suggests that the government is planning this already and putting trial balloons out to see how the public reacts.

 

The other thing is, the alternatives are either leave it alone and allow de facto decriminalization to stand or make prostitution illegal outright. The first option has zero chance of occurring with a Conservative majority running the country, and the other risks making them look like they're starting a GOP-style War on Women. The Nordic model allows them to "rescue" prostitutes rather than putting them in jail, and targets the least sympathetic (in the public eye) group involved, the johns. Everyone knows that guys who buy sex are either desperate losers, cheaters and/or borderline sex offenders. It's easy to vilify a group that's already despised (and let's be honest, the vast majority of us would be despised if what we did was known to those around us).

 

Remember, this is the government that pushed the brain-dead American version of "law and order" justice, fill the prisons with harsh sentences and no room for individual differences. We know for an absolute fact that it doesn't just fail to reduce crime but actually increases it because of the effects the prison system has on those that go through it, but the government doesn't care. Compared to that, the Nordic model is progressive.

 

First thing to say... right now, I have no idea what I'll do, and no plans to acquire one. Entertaining though all the speculation may be, none of us really know what legislation - if any - will eventually become law. The fine details are likely to matter more than the broad direction of it, and the attitude of local LE will certainly matter more than either.

 

Unless things change really drastically - which I doubt - I don't think seeing a well-established independent provider will be any riskier than it is today.

[curious2 323]

I think the Conservative government would really rather not legislate on this issue. This reminds me of the hysterical reaction last year when there was a technical issue on dealing with gay divorce and all the opponents of the Conservatives jumped on the issue and claimed that the Conservatives were just itching to abolish gay marriage. Instead, the issue fizzled mere hours later when the government announced that the laws would be updated to encompass gay marriages. Harper isn't interested in promoting conservative issues, as he's shown again and again with the abortion issue, gay marriage, etc. He is interested in winning elections. Coming down with heavy legislation won't do that--it will just appeal to the Conservative base, who would vote Conservative no matter what.

[drlove 37204]

I think the Conservative government would really rather not legislate on this issue. This reminds me of the hysterical reaction last year when there was a technical issue on dealing with gay divorce and all the opponents of the Conservatives jumped on the issue and claimed that the Conservatives were just itching to abolish gay marriage. Instead, the issue fizzled mere hours later when the government announced that the laws would be updated to encompass gay marriages. Harper isn't interested in promoting conservative issues, as he's shown again and again with the abortion issue, gay marriage, etc. He is interested in winning elections. Coming down with heavy legislation won't do that--it will just appeal to the Conservative base, who would vote Conservative no matter what.

 

Let's hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath on that one...

[LeeRichards 177238]

How will I deal with it ?

 

Won't change a thing....

 

I will visit with the exact same amazing ladies in the exact same cities as I do now ... life will still be good. Not what it should be legal wise ....but good good good. :)

 

My name is John

 

Happy is my first name. My Mamma didn't name me Happy but she sure as the dickens didn't name me John either.

 

She shoulda said.... Lee You are gonna grow up and be a "John"

 

Fuckin rights :bigclap::boobies::butt::69::bj::Cunning:

 

CHEERS FOLKS :chug::chug::chug:

[TheRiddlerMan 872]

Read this and tell me if you still think that:

 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Government+prostitution+survey+full+loaded+questions/9517691/story.html

 

This isn't a Conservative issue - the Nordic model is promoted by the left, by human rights activists worried about sex trafficking, certain kinds of feminists, etc. The people who march in favour of same sex marriage also support this kind of law.

 

I doubt Harper cares much at all about this and wouldn't have touched it aside from the court case, but no way would he accept decriminalization on his watch. The best solution for him now is the Nordic model, which will have support on both left and right.

 

I think the Conservative government would really rather not legislate on this issue. This reminds me of the hysterical reaction last year when there was a technical issue on dealing with gay divorce and all the opponents of the Conservatives jumped on the issue and claimed that the Conservatives were just itching to abolish gay marriage. Instead, the issue fizzled mere hours later when the government announced that the laws would be updated to encompass gay marriages. Harper isn't interested in promoting conservative issues, as he's shown again and again with the abortion issue, gay marriage, etc. He is interested in winning elections. Coming down with heavy legislation won't do that--it will just appeal to the Conservative base, who would vote Conservative no matter what.

[drlove 37204]

Read this and tell me if you still think that:

 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Government+prostitution+survey+full+loaded+questions/9517691/story.html

 

This isn't a Conservative issue - the Nordic model is promoted by the left, by human rights activists worried about sex trafficking, certain kinds of feminists, etc. The people who march in favour of same sex marriage also support this kind of law.

 

I doubt Harper cares much at all about this and wouldn't have touched it aside from the court case, but no way would he accept decriminalization on his watch. The best solution for him now is the Nordic model, which will have support on both left and right.

 

Therein lies the rub... While in theory the Constitutional Challenge has merit over the long term, the reality is that we will now be much worse off under the Nordic Model.

[mrrnice2 157005]

I posted this on another thread earlier today.

 

If I understand the Nordic model at all it is just as crazy as the existing laws. Presently prostitution is legal but virtually everything that allows it to happen is illegal. The Nordic model would make prostitution legal but make it an illegal service to purchase? How crazy is that??????

 

However, my continued participation would probably be based on the same things that have guided me over the past three years. Technically every time I visited a lady at her hotel or home I was breaking the bawdy house laws but that did not deter me. For the most part my eventual meeting with a lady only happened after significant prior communications so that at least for me there was always a comfort level, and I cannot see that changing. I would not be concerned if I followed the same same process that I was going to be involved in any sort of a "sting" operation.

 

For ladies I wonder how much more of their time would be taken with texts and emails in order to give clients that sense of ease. I know many ladies already do that but I wonder for them if that will now just add on one additional "chore" too do that will be required in order to do business.

 

Right now it's all just thinking out loud.

[Guest Ou**or**n]

I answered in more depth in the 'Ask a hobbyist thread' but in short...

 

The Nordic model would be extremely difficult to enforce in respect to indoor sex workers. Even sex workers who widely advertise specific services and fees still have private sex lives and having sex with a guy is no proof he paid. This is also assuming the cops have somehow got a warrant to enter a private hotel room or residence. There has to be proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Without actually viewing the exchange of money this is virtually impossible in the indoor world.

 

What is at risk are new providers (they could be under cover cops), agency-run incalls (possible to get a warrant, more justification that the reason for visiting is to pay for sex).

 

I really, really doubt our indoor will be affected very much at all.

 

Personally I don't see the verification systems doing well at all. Signing up for one as a male (where you pay a fee) would be a step towards establishing proof you intended to purchase sex and could get used against you. A review by a trusted hobbyist here on CERB is all I'd need to know the lady wasn't an undercover cop. These systems are more common in the U.S. where its most often the women charged.

[kmwq 5477]

Personally, it would mean retirement for me in Canada. I love the ladies for what they do for us but if it becomes illegal then I have to protect my "normal" life.

[Andee 220524]

If a Nordic style approach was adopted, I am sure that established providers will still persevere. It's the new ladies coming into the game who clients will have to make sure are not LE.

 

I am not personally not worried about it because I do not believe in the long run that the Police will enforce this anymore than they have been with the current laws. It would take too much manpower and resources.

[TheRiddlerMan 872]

I agree that it would be difficult to enforce, but all they need is a few high profile arrests making news to put the fear of god into the rest of us. Also, how could we continue posting reviews of providers online? There's no issue now because paying for sex isn't illegal, but once it is we'd be admitting to a criminal activity every time we posted.

 

Seems to me that sites like Cerb would have to evolve into pure advertising sites. The providers could post their ads, but the clients could no longer interact the way we do now. Using aliases is no real defense, after all.

 

I answered in more depth in the 'Ask a hobbyist thread' but in short...

 

The Nordic model would be extremely difficult to enforce in respect to indoor sex workers. Even sex workers who widely advertise specific services and fees still have private sex lives and having sex with a guy is no proof he paid. This is also assuming the cops have somehow got a warrant to enter a private hotel room or residence. There has to be proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Without actually viewing the exchange of money this is virtually impossible in the indoor world.

 

What is at risk are new providers (they could be under cover cops), agency-run incalls (possible to get a warrant, more justification that the reason for visiting is to pay for sex).

 

I really, really doubt our indoor will be affected very much at all.

 

Personally I don't see the verification systems doing well at all. Signing up for one as a male (where you pay a fee) would be a step towards establishing proof you intended to purchase sex and could get used against you. A review by a trusted hobbyist here on CERB is all I'd need to know the lady wasn't an undercover cop. These systems are more common in the U.S. where its most often the women charged.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

I am starting to get my GF's ready to work INDY just in case. I am teaching both ladies how to screen, maintain their standards, and about being discrete. As I am an agent now, I am not sure about next year.

 

If agencies are going to be in their focus, then I would be better off by myself. Which is sooo sad, because they feel safer with me:( which is totally ironic considering the new laws as of next year will allow indoor games. But I will prepare them for this.

 

As Angela and others have said, I do not worry for me, as I know my clients and have built a good amount of regular clientele. It is going to be hard for new girls tho, until they can verify they are not LE undercover.

[drlove 37204]

I answered in more depth in the 'Ask a hobbyist thread' but in short...

 

The Nordic model would be extremely difficult to enforce in respect to indoor sex workers. Even sex workers who widely advertise specific services and fees still have private sex lives and having sex with a guy is no proof he paid. This is also assuming the cops have somehow got a warrant to enter a private hotel room or residence. There has to be proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Without actually viewing the exchange of money this is virtually impossible in the indoor world.

 

Originally posted by Maggies: (This doesn't sound good..)

 

The police are only allowed to enter and search your location with a warrant; however, there are some instances where the police can search your location without a warrant. These include: with your permission, situations where the police are chasing a suspect and the suspect enters your home, as well as, when the police believe someone is in immediate danger (i.e responding to a 911 call), they have reason to believe evidence of a crime will be destroyed, or they are arresting you or someone who lives in your residence.

 

You have the right to deny police entry, but they may force entry if they have a warrant or reasonable cause based on any of the above factors. Additionally, they may force entry regardless of whether their reasonable cause is valid, and they may detain you while they conduct their search. If this happens remain silent and get out of they way.