How would you deal with a Nordic-style law in Canada?

[Guest Ou**or**n]

Seems to me that sites like Cerb would have to evolve into pure advertising sites. The providers could post their ads, but the clients could no longer interact the way we do now. Using aliases is no real defense, after all.

 

First, writing about having performed a 'criminal' activity and actually being caught in the act by a police officer are two very different things. You can always claim your review was pure fiction. As I've indicated the lady would most likely also disclaim having seen you thus destroying any potential case.

 

Second - it is very hard to go from a review to the person posting. They would have to get a warrant to get CERB's web server information to get the IP address of the member posting. If they were using a VPN this would also be useless. Then they'd have to get a warrant to go the ISP of that IP address to get the user. Given the both the resources required, the very low profile of the crime and the lack of guarantee a judge is going to allow the warrants and the low probability of a successful conviction this just doesn't seem likely to me. Believe me, the police will busy doing stings against street workers and doing under cover work as new escorts long before they'll ever do something like this.

 

Even if such such a thing happened then CERB may stop doing reviews but other sites based in other countries would rise up and fill the void. These would be in countries that wouldn't honour warrants from Canadian police forces.

 

Indoor prostitution is still very, very common in Sweden, the drop recorded by the proponents of the law occurred just after 1999 when a great deal of sex work moved indoors due to the rise of the Internet.

 

Now make no mistake, I am dead set against the Nordic model as I believe it will decimate agencies, girls working in shared locations and may be the end of the MP SPA world. I'm just saying that for independant indoor sex workers, little will change.

[redmana2 2754]

I tend to look at things from a financial perspective, so here goes. If you're an established lady with a verified presence and a good reputation, you might as well raise your prices on day one under nordic. As mentioned before, I think guys will flock to safety. Women with good reputations might find their calendars more full on a permanent basis.

 

On the other hand, as guys become more risk averse to TOFTT on a new or unreviewed lady, there will probably be a vacuum of clients for new ladies. They'll perhaps have to lower prices or be forced into taking riskier clients (encouraging more street prostitution?). I don't know if excessive "price competition" in this industry is the best thing for safety. Some men (perhaps myself) will just stop doing this altogether, and that will just squeeze supply even more.

 

I don't know how exactly agencies will fit in. They've always made me nervous. With an organization in place it just seems to me there's more evidence (money changing hands, communications, fingers to point) there when police swoop in, which the new laws could allow them to do. They'd certainly be a more attractive way for new/unverified ladies to get their foot in the door in an industry that heavily favours experience. Which might only make them more vulnerable to exploitation.

 

There's definitely Charter problems in all this.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

Perhaps we can have a " verified" section, kind of like recommendation section. So for new girls in the industry, either other SP's who have been established for over a year, or hobbyist who meet them can post that indeed they have had services. As I said above, I am going to get my 2 ladies ready to go INDY, so I would verify that they are real working ladies and not undercover.

This assuming the Nordic does come in, I frankly do not think it will as it will just end up in court again. I suppose they could do it knowing it will go back to court just to slow us down for a year.

[drlove 37204]

Perhaps we can have a " verified" section, kind of like recommendation section. So for new girls in the industry, either other SP's who have been established for over a year, or hobbyist who meet them can post that indeed they have had services. As I said above, I am going to get my 2 ladies ready to go INDY, so I would verify that they are real working ladies and not undercover.

This assuming the Nordic does come in, I frankly do not think it will as it will just end up in court again. I suppose they could do it knowing it will go back to court just to slow us down for a year.

 

Well, all signs point to the Nordic model being implemented, possibly as early as the spring. Now, while there are problems with it, I think the new law would gum up the works so to speak for a lot longer than one year. The last constitutional challenge was started back in 2006/2007 or so, and it's just now coming to a head. I believe the laws could/would still be enforced even in the face of another challenge down the road.

[canuckhooker 19203]

Well, all signs point to the Nordic model being implemented, possibly as early as the spring. Now, while there are problems with it, I think the new law would gum up the works so to speak for a lot longer than one year. The last constitutional challenge was started back in 2006/2007 or so, and it's just now coming to a head. I believe the laws could/would still be enforced even in the face of another challenge down the road.

 

What signs? It has been explained elsewhere on this board about the process of getting a bill passed and into law. Even if they were going with the Nordic model, and that is a big "if", it would take months if not a year for it to get through the house. It is not even been drafted yet, let alone ever started going through all the steps.

 

As for your estimate of how long before it is challenged, I think you are way off on that one as well. If the Government tries to put a law in place that clearly ignores the supreme court ruling in regards to the specific portions of the Criminal code that were struck down, then I don't think anyone would be convicted. First the Nordic model does not outlaw selling of sexual services, so then that is still a legal job, even though nobody can buy. But the Nordic model also outlaws brothels, and living off the avails, which is in direct contravention of the SCC ruling.

 

One of the key conditions of that ruling was that selling sex was still legal. That condition is met in the Nordic model, so putting back the same restrictions would not be accepted. Judges would not convict, and most smart prosecutors would not prosecute because they do not like having their rulings overturned. The SCC ruling is a legal precedent that most defense counsels would use, and challenges and appeals to that would not take as long even if there was a conviction. The court has examined all the evidence and ruled.

 

They will not try and put this model in place, they know what the rulings meant. However, as we see, even from the Liberal policy convention, everybody is trying to avoid taking a position. They are going to analyze it, and seek input, it will get delayed procedurally, it will die on the order paper. They know they have two choices, either outright criminalization, or regulation. They talk about Nordic to keep the uneducated masses happy, but they know it will not work.

[TheRiddlerMan 872]

This is one time where I'd love to be proven wrong, but I really don't think I will. We'll know soon enough.

[drlove 37204]

What signs? It has been explained elsewhere on this board about the process of getting a bill passed and into law. Even if they were going with the Nordic model, and that is a big "if", it would take months if not a year for it to get through the house. It is not even been drafted yet, let alone ever started going through all the steps.

 

As for your estimate of how long before it is challenged, I think you are way off on that one as well. If the Government tries to put a law in place that clearly ignores the supreme court ruling in regards to the specific portions of the Criminal code that were struck down, then I don't think anyone would be convicted. First the Nordic model does not outlaw selling of sexual services, so then that is still a legal job, even though nobody can buy. But the Nordic model also outlaws brothels, and living off the avails, which is in direct contravention of the SCC ruling.

 

One of the key conditions of that ruling was that selling sex was still legal. That condition is met in the Nordic model, so putting back the same restrictions would not be accepted. Judges would not convict, and most smart prosecutors would not prosecute because they do not like having their rulings overturned. The SCC ruling is a legal precedent that most defense counsels would use, and challenges and appeals to that would not take as long even if there was a conviction. The court has examined all the evidence and ruled.

 

They will not try and put this model in place, they know what the rulings meant. However, as we see, even from the Liberal policy convention, everybody is trying to avoid taking a position. They are going to analyze it, and seek input, it will get delayed procedurally, it will die on the order paper. They know they have two choices, either outright criminalization, or regulation. They talk about Nordic to keep the uneducated masses happy, but they know it will not work.

 

Are you sure about that? The thing is, Harper has a majority government and can do as he pleases. We all know the Nordic model is unjust, and will not pass muster in a new constitutional challenge, and so do the Conservatives. Herein lies the rub... Any law which Parliament crafts to replace the old laws governing prostitution in this country does not have to gain approval by the SCC before being implemented. As ironic as it is, the SCC's decision will be rendered moot until such time that another challenge is brought forth, which may take years. Long story short, we will be stuck with whatever the government hands us for a very long time.

[fortunateone 156618]

Are you sure about that? The thing is, Harper has a majority government and can do as he pleases. We all know the Nordic model is unjust, and will not pass muster in a new constitutional challenge, and so do the Conservatives. Herein lies the rub... Any law which Parliament crafts to replace the old laws governing prostitution in this country does not have to gain approval by the SCC before being implemented. As ironic as it is, the SCC's decision will be rendered moot until such time that another challenge is brought forth, which may take years. Long story short, we will be stuck with whatever the government hands us for a very long time.

 

We were stuck with the prior set of laws for about 30 years, and it didn't really slow things down much. Even tho they say that 90% of all charges were related to street work, and right now they plan to stop charging the sps involved in street work, in some cities, that still affects a very small percentage of the population, and the guys have always taken the risk of picking up a street worker being LE for decades now. They find a way to make it work, they repeat with regular sps they see, and so on, just like indoor work.

 

Indoor work in mps has always been open to charges, the other 10% as LE has always been able to walk in any time of the day or night and catch folks in the act. And they have done this, without stings or setups too. They don't do it often because they don't want to hear people complaining about the number of street workers, and indoor work keeps many off the street as well out out of residential apartments. Making clients illegal will still not make these places a priority, if the alternative is trying to find indoor residential workers and given that street worker clients are just that much easier to find and charge.

 

The problem with the current laws is the same problem as any new laws being considered, LE's unwillingness to investigate and charge.

[drlove 37204]

We were stuck with the prior set of laws for about 30 years, and it didn't really slow things down much. Even tho they say that 90% of all charges were related to street work, and right now they plan to stop charging the sps involved in street work, in some cities, that still affects a very small percentage of the population, and the guys have always taken the risk of picking up a street worker being LE for decades now. They find a way to make it work, they repeat with regular sps they see, and so on, just like indoor work.

 

Indoor work in mps has always been open to charges, the other 10% as LE has always been able to walk in any time of the day or night and catch folks in the act. And they have done this, without stings or setups too. They don't do it often because they don't want to hear people complaining about the number of street workers, and indoor work keeps many off the street as well out out of residential apartments. Making clients illegal will still not make these places a priority, if the alternative is trying to find indoor residential workers and given that street worker clients are just that much easier to find and charge.

 

The problem with the current laws is the same problem as any new laws being considered, LE's unwillingness to investigate and charge.

 

Yes, I agree with most of what you said. However, the fundamental difference (at least for me) is that with the old laws, outcalls were 100% legal. That is, for a strictly outcall guy like myself, I could have my fun without the risk of being charged. Now, under a Nordic model, I would effectively be breaking the law every time I invite a lady to my residence.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Are you sure about that? The thing is, Harper has a majority government and can do as he pleases. We all know the Nordic model is unjust, and will not pass muster in a new constitutional challenge, and so do the Conservatives. Herein lies the rub... Any law which Parliament crafts to replace the old laws governing prostitution in this country does not have to gain approval by the SCC before being implemented. As ironic as it is, the SCC's decision will be rendered moot until such time that another challenge is brought forth, which may take years. Long story short, we will be stuck with whatever the government hands us for a very long time.

 

The Nordic model is not "absolutely" unjust. At best, it might be considered a form of social paternity over sex workers who have chosen to partake in this industry. But one must also remember that there are others who haven't made a "voluntary" choice to join the club. When Scandinavian countries implement such a model one should realize that such countries are well known for their high human development standards.

 

The Nordic model won't necessarily fail a constitutional challenge unless sex workers could show based on evidence that their safety is at risk. This is wholly different from convicting Johns, because the decision of the Supreme Court was about the safety of sex worker. So, if John is sitting in the Court alone, there is nothing in the Nordic model which will affect his "own" safety. Even if John is wealthy enough and hired a sex worker to plead her own safety, evidence is required!

[canuckhooker 19203]

Are you sure about that? The thing is, Harper has a majority government and can do as he pleases. We all know the Nordic model is unjust, and will not pass muster in a new constitutional challenge, and so do the Conservatives. Herein lies the rub... Any law which Parliament crafts to replace the old laws governing prostitution in this country does not have to gain approval by the SCC before being implemented. As ironic as it is, the SCC's decision will be rendered moot until such time that another challenge is brought forth, which may take years. Long story short, we will be stuck with whatever the government hands us for a very long time.

 

Wrong, it will not have to go up to the SCC again. The first time someone is charged under anything that resembles the three parts struck down, Living off avails, Bawdy house (and all that entails including found-in provisions) and public soliciting their lawyer will trot out the SCC decision that says as long as selling sex is legal, these laws are not valid and the client can not be found guilty. Case dismissed.

 

The government will have to take another approach.

[drlove 37204]

Wrong, it will not have to go up to the SCC again. The first time someone is charged under anything that resembles the three parts struck down, Living off avails, Bawdy house (and all that entails including found-in provisions) and public soliciting their lawyer will trot out the SCC decision that says as long as selling sex is legal, these laws are not valid and the client can not be found guilty. Case dismissed.

 

The government will have to take another approach.

 

I really hope you're right!

 

Additional Comments:

Wrong, it will not have to go up to the SCC again. The first time someone is charged under anything that resembles the three parts struck down, Living off avails, Bawdy house (and all that entails including found-in provisions) and public soliciting their lawyer will trot out the SCC decision that says as long as selling sex is legal, these laws are not valid and the client can not be found guilty. Case dismissed.

 

The government will have to take another approach.

 

What about a client simply being charged for buying sex? E.g that would still be illegal regardless of whether the transaction took place in a bawdy house or elsewhere. That wasn't part of the original ruling, unless the lawyer will focus on the conundrum / nonsensical nature of it being illegal to buy a legal service.

[Guest **sh****he***ac***th]

The police don't have the resources to follow me around as a client pure and simple. I will continue to be very discrete and I will continue to see reputable and established ladies who are in the business on their own accord. Regardless of what the current government does with respect to legislation it will be business as usual for me. We will change and adapt as need be irrespective of the government's holier than thou attitude. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it that's for sure.

[Miss Jessica Lee 43328]

The police don't have the resources to follow me around as a client pure and simple. I will continue to be very discrete and I will continue to see reputable and established ladies who are in the business on their own accord. Regardless of what the current government does with respect to legislation it will be business as usual for me. We will change and adapt as need be irrespective of the government's holier than thou attitude. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it that's for sure.

 

ohh it's so nice to see this kind of opinion as I'm finding it increasingly frustrating to see all the fear mongering and paranoia that's being posted on various boards.

 

I just read a post by a gent who claims all clients are opening themselves up to blackmail demands because the "sex worker" will have intel on him she can use to have him arrested... then he explained to the ladies that all the "good clients" obey the law so the only clients remaining will be the criminal element.

 

I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your point of view, your calm and cool resolve... and also your handle. If there were an award for originality you'd take first prize :)

 

 

@fortunateone ... great article! God forbid she portray the ideal of "the happy hooker" ... even if it's true. LoL

[mrgreen760 37785]

I've got one leg out the door already so it won't matter much to me personally if it's instituted but for sure it will make it much easier to walk away completely.

 

Peace

MG

[Jason Fergusson 1408]

Just to demonstrate how silly the laws are, someone please answer the following questions:

1)Is it legal if I give an expensive gift to a service provider? Am I not her sugar daddy in that case? Is that a loophole in the Nordic law? If her rates are "a week of groceries for half an hour", does that make every thing okay? I just bought groceries and delivered them to her house and we had fun after. What is the problem?

2) If a "cougar" gives her younger boy-toy lots money, is he a prostitute?

3) If I have a "friend with benefits" and she never repays the money that I lend her, is she a prostitute?

 

Consider these terms and definitions:

1) Sugar mama http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sugar%20Mama

2) Sugar daddy http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sugar%20daddy&defid=23713

3) friend with benefits http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=friends%20with%20benefits

 

Please contribute more questions of your own to this list. I just considered a couple of possibilities off the top of my head.

[fortunateone 156618]

^^ In the US they say 'money is for time and companionship only." That has never prevented LE from charging and arresting both sp and client in their stings. There is no way to make #1 work, as long as the person is unquestionably an sp. The same with sugar daddy/baby relationships, as far as the US law is concerned it is the same thing. Especially when you consider a lot of arrangements are paid per date, not as a monthly stipend done one time.

 

I think many people think that the Nordic model necessarily means the end to things as we know it. No more reviews, no more ads, no more forums. There are a TON of forums, reviews and ads in the US for and about US sps. There is no reason to think things, online at least, will change even for a minute. There is reason to believe that sps might ask for references more often, because LE will still target them, as they do in other countries. The

[drlove 37204]

^^ In the US they say 'money is for time and companionship only." That has never prevented LE from charging and arresting both sp and client in their stings. There is no way to make #1 work, as long as the person is unquestionably an sp. The same with sugar daddy/baby relationships, as far as the US law is concerned it is the same thing. Especially when you consider a lot of arrangements are paid per date, not as a monthly stipend done one time.

 

I think many people think that the Nordic model necessarily means the end to things as we know it. No more reviews, no more ads, no more forums. There are a TON of forums, reviews and ads in the US for and about US sps. There is no reason to think things, online at least, will change even for a minute. There is reason to believe that sps might ask for references more often, because LE will still target them, as they do in other countries. The

 

I'm guessing the last part of your post was cut off, but target them for what? Under a Nordic model, SPs can't be charged.

[Jason Fergusson 1408]

The justice minister says that prostitutes are vulnerable and have no options. If I had not known what the topic was, I would have thought that he was describing retail sales clerks and fast food industry workers. Have you seen those people at work? The typical business will have a manager who makes the workers do stressful work at an unrealistic speed for several hours. The workers are forced to use scripted language over and over, "Welcome to...", " Would you also like...", "The total comes to...". I think that the work conditions of retail sales clerks and fast food industry workers is inhumane and undignified. In Ontario, retail sales clerks and fast food industry workers earn $10.25 per hour and they get paid for 37.5 hours a week once break times are deducted. That means that retail sales clerks and fast food industry workers earn $384 a week before tax. I think that the police need to prosecute the customer; not the retail sales clerks and fast food industry workers. We need to punish the people who enjoy merchandise and food in exchange for minimum wage.

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/04/30/court-will-reject-nordic-model

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/27/harper-governments-new-prostitution-laws-will-likely-target-pimps-customers-and-sex-trade-traffickers/

[Cloud 1210]

I'm guessing the last part of your post was cut off, but target them for what? Under a Nordic model, SPs can't be charged.

 

I heard Valerie Scott say that under the Nordic Model the law can compel an sp to testify against customers, and if she doesn't then she goes to jail. So the idea of sps being decriminalized is a myth.

[roamingguy 300292]

The police don't have the resources to follow me around as a client pure and simple. I will continue to be very discrete and I will continue to see reputable and established ladies who are in the business on their own accord. Regardless of what the current government does with respect to legislation it will be business as usual for me. We will change and adapt as need be irrespective of the government's holier than thou attitude. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it that's for sure.

 

 

I go back to what I originally argued and what was echoed here. The new legislation just gives the police a law to enforce. But will it be a law enforcement priority. Street prostitution maybe, because it is visible. But seeing escorts and courtesans, which is discrete, I don't think so. The government isn't going to give police and Crown Attorney's bigger budgets to enforce a new law. And it is expensive to bring a case from investigation to charges to trial.

It is with a few exceptions, illegal in the United States. But not only is prostitution thriving, you can see escorts/courtesans. It isn't restricted to the street. Yet it is illegal for the most part

My point. First in my opinion nothing will change up here even if the Nordic model is implemented. Companions will still see clients. It will just require even more discretion on both the lady's and gentleman's part.

Two, a new law is just a political response to the Supreme Court decision.

I highly doubt all the police are holding their breath waiting for a new law to come down because they are eager to arrest guys seeing escorts.

I'm guessing even if the law changes for ladies and gentlemen everything will pretty much will stay the same as it is now as long as they are discrete

My two cents and guess

 

RG

[piano8950 32577]

Here is the problem I have. With an election within a year away, the liberals roughly neck and neck with the conservatives, there needs to be talking points for the conservatives to get ahead.

 

Assuming a variation of the Nordic model does get enacted, I do feel that there will be significant pressure on LEs to provide results. Something to show proof of a change, a "positive change" (Number of arrests made on johns, etc). The obvious low hanging fruit will be clients of street workers.

 

But assuming an over zealous police department find incriminating information on a provider. Offer to toss it out if she trades in a client list. And high profile arrests are made.

 

I think that this may be the absolute worst case scenario. I have a feeling that there might be a few MPs and senators who are currently clients of someone out there who would rather like matters hush hush.

 

 

But here's the thing. In my years of driving or being a passenger, I have never once had an accident. I still wear my seatbelt just in case. Being caught in the old system seemed improbable. With the attention this is now getting, I feel that the risk is too dangerous. I would be comfortable continuing with a regular, but if she leaves the industry, I probably will too.

[TheRiddlerMan 872]

That's the thing, they won't need to enforce it often. They just need a couple of client busts of known providers and make sure the word gets out. Most of us can't take even a small chance of having it happen.

 

With regards to sites like this, just the other day it came out how aggressively the government has been going after user data from the ISPs. Once paying for sex is illegal, they would be within their rights to obtain our information without any notification to us. If you arrange a meeting through an online forum, you could end up with a nasty surprise on the other end.

[drlove 37204]

That's the thing, they won't need to enforce it often. They just need a couple of client busts of known providers and make sure the word gets out. Most of us can't take even a small chance of having it happen.

 

With regards to sites like this, just the other day it came out how aggressively the government has been going after user data from the ISPs. Once paying for sex is illegal, they would be within their rights to obtain our information without any notification to us. If you arrange a meeting through an online forum, you could end up with a nasty surprise on the other end.

 

What about getting a lady's phone number or e-mail and arranging something that way instead?

[cinelli 22184]

What about getting a lady's phone number or e-mail and arranging something that way instead?

 

Absolutely avoid email or text as both those can be stored and retrieved for use by police.

 

Personally I know a couple of ladies pretty well and will stick to them until we see how this plays out. Chances of seeing someone new are zero for the time being.

 

Additional Comments:

target them for what? Under a Nordic model, SPs can't be charged.

 

They will be targeted for contact tracing.

It will not be hard to get a warrant, they will know the right judge to approach. The SP will not be aware of it.

Not necessarily a "tap" but their contacts will be tracked. Same with their email. If the police track the contacts of a large sampling of escorts they may be able to identify customers.

Even if the police do not charge customers they may still show up at your door to ask you who this person is you called five times...or they may have transcripts of texts or emails with you requesting BBBJ's or whatever. Try explaining that to your wife!

 

And to those of you who keep asking "Don't the police have anything better to do?" You must realise that police departments are divided into specialised units. There usually is a vice section. And this will be their full time job.