The end of BBBJ's?

[toklat77 4616]

Last night, CBC's "The National" aired a disturbing story regarding how various strains of bacteria are now becoming resistant to antibiotics including strains of gonorrhea. The World Health Organization is becoming quite alarmed by this and are cautioning health professionals to not over prescribe antibiotics, but it appears the damage has all ready been done as strains of bacteria are becoming known as "super-bacteria's."

 

So, in light of this, could it be possible that BBBJ's by Sp's may become a thing of the past as it could be too dangerous for them to offer this service especially if there isn't a cure for a super strain of gonorrhea?

 

I know there are some Sp's who are not comfortable providing this service to begin with, but feel they must do so in order to remain competitive.

 

So, what do you think CERB community about this?

[CristyCurves 169032]

I reread the article wrong so my apologies. I've erased my first comment

In the end and it's been said thousands of times, multiple partners will cause risks, no matter what type of sex you are having. We all have to be proactive about our health and bodies. Everything we do involves risk and most is choice so liked or not, risky or not I'm sure it'll continue with favor:)In the end, what you choose is your business what I choose is mine and I don't think much is going to change that.

http://jezebel.com/5946480/rethinking-the-blow-job-condoms-or-gonorrhea-take-your-pick

[50 Shades Raven 31380]

I think if you are going to question bbbj's then you have to question daty and even kissing. apparently kissing can also spread this. It's passed in the saliva, as the article I've included attests.

 

 

I fully agree here.

We all take precautions and are very aware our own hygiene.

But with this strain of bacteria, it really does make us all take a look at who we are with and what we are doing.

Due diligence on all sides would be useful here.

 

Making sure that we all keep ourselves free from any forms of bacteria should be a part of daily living, but one never knows who the other person has been with.

 

It will be up to providers to figure out what levels they are going to give in to when it comes to seeing gentlemen.

[CristyCurves 169032]

I think if you are going to question bbbj's then you have to question daty and even kissing. apparently kissing can also spread this. It's passed in the saliva, as the article I've included attests.

 

 

I fully agree here.

We all take precautions and are very aware our own hygiene.

But with this strain of bacteria, it really does make us all take a look at who we are with and what we are doing.

Due diligence on all sides would be useful here.

 

Making sure that we all keep ourselves free from any forms of bacteria should be a part of daily living, but one never knows who the other person has been with.

 

It will be up to providers to figure out what levels they are going to give in to when it comes to seeing gentlemen.

Yes :) both sides are responsible, but I think it hypocritical, but yet their choice;) for anyone to allow one and not the other/others. But that's just how I see it. My next doctors appt is next week and I'll be taking my docs advice on how I should and will approach this.

I personally believe it is best to not allow any exchange of saliva when providing to be as safe as possible. That's not to say that's how I provide or will provide, that is between me and my partner at the time:)

[jafo105 39057]

I can live with CFS and CBJ. I have never had a BBBJ so I don't know what I am missing there. But I could not go without daty. Even the concept of protected daty seems like - whats the point. To give up kissing - not going to happen.

 

Practice good hygiene several times a day, and talk openly with your doctor on a regular basis.

 

Stay educated, play safe, choose SPs and other sexual partners wisely, and decide what risks are acceptable for yourself. IMO.

 

Final word - respect the other persons boundaries and limitations. Do not question their choices or push them where they do not want to go.

[05loner85 600]

I'm all for BBBJ's, Daty, specially kissing, I also accept and respect whichever SP I'm with decision to be covered or not. Not to insult any party either SP or Patron but the old saying goes, Buyer Beware. Again no insult meant as I am one as well.

Do you wash your hands after going to the washroom, I do. It is just one step in personal hygiene.

[fortunateone 156618]

Yes :) both sides are responsible, but I think it hypocritical, but yet their choice;) for anyone to allow one and not the other/others. But that's just how I see it. My next doctors appt is next week and I'll be taking my docs advice on how I should and will approach this.

I personally believe it is best to not allow any exchange of saliva when providing to be as safe as possible. That's not to say that's how I provide or will provide, that is between me and my partner at the time:)

 

 

I don't see it as hypocritical (or that that is a fair assessment of risk level, to promote doing bbbjs, for example, i am not isolating your comment, just that it is often used as an attack on sps who say cbj only, but allow kissing and daty) because the risk LEVEL is not at all the same.

 

There is still risk, but you compare two low risk activity with one high risk activity, and it isn't comparable.

 

I also note the talking to the doctor, but my advice is to talk to the experts at an std clinic. Drs. are great at general info, but they are not experts in everything. They will either greatly exagerate or underestimate your personal risk activity. The std clinic professionals are the only ones, when i went in for testing at my regular clinic and std clinic, to ask me about throat swab or how i did oral sex, and pointed out that if bbbjs are done, then they go for the throat (so to speak).

 

I don't think we can underestimate the risk to the sp, not necessarily the client, in a bbbj. She is the recipient, not he. I do think it is a moderate risk for clients, tho, not high risk but not no risk or low risk either.

 

On the topic, tho, i doubt if it will change how many sps give or do not give bbbjs. I think the ones that do not now are mainly the ones who don't do it because they won't accept the risks, and the ones who do it the vast majority don't know the risks, they are allowing someone else to tell them, whether they are foreign workers or just younger workers, they aren't finding out for themselves the std facts.

 

What is the most common thing available at an agency? bbbj. Is this service a condition of employment? Is it a condition of getting bookings or recommendations when sp is new to the agency? Some agencies have been reported that some services are mandatory, including high risk services.

 

The only thing that this report will help is if the industry was regulated by Occupation Health and Safety lol

 

I wouldn't call this an 'end' to bbbjs, but a 'return' to how things used to be. bbbjs are only common now that everyone thinks that there is a cure for HIV and/or that it isn't transmitted that way. as the OP points out, HIV is not the issue when it comes to oral sex, everything else is, and those things, untreated are evey bit as life or health threatening as HIV.

[Ann Gallerie 7910]

Germs have an interesting way of wrecking everybody's fun! :frown:

 

 

Acts carry a degree of risk. On some websites, I've seen it measured. Maybe this new information will change this.

 

 

What I am very nervous about are SP's being compelled to take that risk, whereas its voluntary for the client. There was a time when SP's were PSE and GFE.

 

I can forsee a time where clients likewise can be defined as safes and riskys - two levels of business, if you will.

[cinelli 22184]

There appears to be some confusion in this thread about drug resistant bacteria.

 

MRSA or VRSA bacteria are not transmitted through sex. Generally they are found in hospitals and nursing homes. MRSA has a variant which can be transmitted by skin-to-skin contact. Drug resistant bacteria are a problem that goes far beyond BBBJs. I don't think we can imagine the magnitude of this problem just yet.

 

Some scientists predict that in our lifetime organ transplants will no longer be possible. Most common surgery will be impossible. Serious trauma may become fatal due to infections that cannot be treated. Our lives are going to change drastically for the worse because of this.

[Liv Waters 52361]

I find these kinds of threads about BBBJ really irritating. Not because conversation about shared intimacies and health matters shouldn't be had, but because of how talk about sucking dick quickly shifts into the 'politic of the ick' (a term coined by sexologist Carol Queen). I will speak for myself. I love making out, I love having my pussy licked, I love sucking cock, alot of the time BBBJs and CIM (oh yeah baby), and, yet I do not identify as a PSE at all. Not a meaningful term to me. I'm GFE all the way. I do not make clients wear a dental dam to give me oral, and I do not put saran on my face when playing tonsil hockey.

 

There are plenty of service providers, including popular and highly reviewed SPs who do not do BBBJ (understandable, and a very personal decision), but the idea of being concerned over providers 'being compelled' to provide BBBJs, and then omitting the way we normalize and by and large broadly accept DFK and DATY as meaningful and commonly provided services inherent to the work, (providing GFE), is problematic.

 

Assessing the risks, negotiating the fun to be had, and getting regular health checks including throat swabs is a must. Let's not turn all SPs into victims of risky clients, and let's focus on empowering workers to enjoy working conditions where they can refuse work they deem unsafe....not to mention increasing access to non-stigmatizing STI health screening, and ongoing education.

 

Signed,

 

Cum lover

[CristyCurves 169032]

I don't see it as hypocritical (or that that is a fair assessment of risk level, to promote doing bbbjs, for example, i am not isolating your comment, just that it is often used as an attack on sps who say cbj only, but allow kissing and daty) because the risk LEVEL is not at all the same.

Thank you for your comment:) I don't promote, nor believe in promoting bbbj's or any other activity, unless you consider advertising promoting? What anyone does or offers is personal choice and up to them. Nor is my opinion ever meant to be an attack, it is simply an opinion. But this thread is about gonorrhea and it's spread. So if it can be spread but all activities-then all are risky and offering one and not the others is hypocritical, how could it not be? To argue over risk levels is silly.

There is still risk, but you compare two low risk activity with one high risk activity, and it isn't comparable.

 

I also note the talking to the doctor, but my advice is to talk to the experts at an std clinic. Drs. are great at general info, but they are not experts in everything. They will either greatly exagerate or underestimate your personal risk activity. The std clinic professionals are the only ones, when i went in for testing at my regular clinic and std clinic, to ask me about throat swab or how i did oral sex, and pointed out that if bbbjs are done, then they go for the throat (so to speak).

Thank you for that:) My doctor is very informed about sti's/std's, without giving him/her away I won't say anymore other than I feel very secure with his/her advice.

I don't think we can underestimate the risk to the sp, not necessarily the client, in a bbbj. She is the recipient, not he. I do think it is a moderate risk for clients, tho, not high risk but not no risk or low risk either.

 

On the topic, tho, i doubt if it will change how many sps give or do not give bbbjs. I think the ones that do not now are mainly the ones who don't do it because they won't accept the risks, and the ones who do it the vast majority don't know the risks, they are allowing someone else to tell them, whether they are foreign workers or just younger workers, they aren't finding out for themselves the std facts.

Again this mindset boggles me. To say I'm going to do this because there is risk but just a little, and I won't do that because there is more, is silly to me. Risk is risk. I am fully aware of the risks of all sexually transmitted diseases but I won't try and surmise who's in the majority or minority as I'm no expert, nor is anyone on this board to my knowledge. We've all had experiences, some more than others, but that doesn't make us experts.

What is the most common thing available at an agency? bbbj. Is this service a condition of employment? Is it a condition of getting bookings or recommendations when sp is new to the agency? Some agencies have been reported that some services are mandatory, including high risk services.

Perhaps things have changed drastically, when I was running agencies I would have fired a girl if I found out she was offering bbbj's. That wasn't an accepted practice at any of the agencies I knew of at that time. It wasn't until I joined cerb in 2011 that I knew of or heard of gfe and bbbj being an accepted activity. It was some of those providers (gfe) who in my beginning here gave me a hard time about giving or not giving bbbj's !

 

The only thing that this report will help is if the industry was regulated by Occupation Health and Safety lol

 

 

 

Agreed:) But would that be fair or reasonable?

[Brooklyn Scott 1224]

safety first ;) It's better for everybody in the long run.

[Ann Gallerie 7910]

Cinelli is right.

 

Every few years, a superbug blows through, SARS. H1N1, even killer bees.

 

And sometimes the WHO is wrong about just how big the pandemic really is.

 

I pray for everyone that this one also gets blown out of proportion.

[Carrie Moon 68826]

Again this mindset boggles me. To say I'm going to do this because there is risk but just a little, and I won't do that because there is more, is silly to me. Risk is risk.

 

 

hmmm. risk is risk is risk? nope.. driving on the highway is a risk for sure.. driving at 50 km/hr over the speed limit is riskier.. 100? riskier yet.

 

Using that logic.. BBFS is no riskier than BBBJ

[Regent 35404]

cristycurves, perhaps you misread. In the article you linked it says gonorrhea is not spread through saliva:

 

(Kissing and cunnilingus don't spread it because saliva contains enzymes that destroy gonorrhea. Thanks, saliva.)

 

DATY and DFK are legitimately less risky than BBBJ when it comes to gonorrhea (though still risky for some other STIs.)

[fortunateone 156618]

Agreed:) But would that be fair or reasonable?

 

 

Re; regulate it OHS? Yes, absolutely it would be fair and reasonable to prohibit bbbjs, for health and safety issues. It is already like that in New Zealand.

 

And what is fair about it, of course, is that all sps then are on a level playing field. The ones who choose to be safe and the ones who would market themselves as providing that higher risk but popular activity now would all be offering cbjs only. Not one over the other, but level and, in other words, the very definition of fair.

 

Also, I will note we clearly agree on what was typical (no gfe, no bbjs) in the past (when you were at the agency) and now. It is a very real thing that sps are told that they won't get calls if they don't provide bbbjs. That to me takes the choice out of it, if they are an employee. But even with choice, to me it seems more dangerous when there is an sp working who really has no clue about her personal risks. That also takes away her choice, thru ignorance of her own health.

 

In NZ, there are actually posters required in brothels and parlours on stds, and the regulations, etc, for this kind of information dissemination lol.

[LeeRichards 177238]

Maybe off topic.....but has anyone seen the movie Transcendence ? With Johnny Depp and Morgan Freeman. It intrigues me .......

[Andee 220524]

Maybe off topic.....but has anyone seen the movie Transcendence ? With Johnny Depp and Morgan Freeman. It intrigues me .......

 

Nope, but also off topic, I thought my eyes deceived me. The thread below this one was "I love boobies" and I thought I had read "The end of Boobies". Whew....

 

For what it is worth, when I first became an SP in 1995, I worked for a few agencies in Alberta and in "those days" the term GFE was unheard of.

 

If it was found out that any of us performed bbbj or daty without a dental dam, we were terminated immediately and blackballed from ever working for another agency. (In those days you could not work independent because print media would not publish your ad unless you were with an agency)

 

Kissing, and digits were frowned upon as well. Anal was something that was never mentioned, although perhaps back-door deals were made (no pun intended) in private.

 

I am beginning to think maybe in some ways things were better because it seemed the ladies and the gents were less stressed about "expectations"

 

Oh, and off topic, but nonetheless worth mentioning, hardly ever had anyone call up and try to bargain our rates down. I know this because the agency owners required us to take shifts covering the phones.

(always at my discretion).

[Liv Waters 52361]

I think its totally fair and makes complete sense to consider BBBJ along with other services (Greek, DATY, kissing...) part of a spectrum of services SPs have every right to refuse to provide for any reason as a legitimate claim on their rights to optimal health & safety. And, yes, while this thread is about gonorrhea, it's also become about issues of risk relative to BBBJ and other services as well.

 

The NZ model represents the most ideal model in practice which we can draw and build on here in Canada. But, it does not mean a copy and paste approach is warranted. The idea that we will see success by outright banning sexual practices such BBBJ is nonsense. Again, creating markets, and expanding the rights of providers, including those who work for agencies to refuse ANY services they feel uncomfortable (or any client they feel uncomfortable seeing) with is alot more realistic. Aggressive educational campaigns and access to services that promote personal responsibility for ones's sexual health, including clients doing so will be another important piece. Along with increasing access to STI testing....hassle free clinics etc, and better educated and more receptive GPs.

 

To go with this, mandatory health testing will also be a huge mistake despite many people saying it's a great idea, as it will create illegality where it did not exist before....where those disenfranchised from the formal registered system will be on society's shit list....and where all of the blame and medical control will be placed on the bodies of sex workers, instead of on clients and the general population.

 

So, what's the connection between the mandatory testing and regulatory measures against BBBJ?

 

What are we going to do?: Start fining workers who provide BBBJs to their clients?....How do we go about determining their 'risk levels'? Do we start tracking all SPs sexual partners in private to see whose bare cock they are sucking, maybe who they have screwed bareback on their own time and then use that as a reason to say, hey, no kissing and no daty with your clients....cuz you COULD have gonorrhea and/or you COULD give your client herpes.

 

Banning BBBJs is going to create a specter of illegality and stigma. Bad idea!

 

Sex work is not and has never been a level playing field. And standardizing sex acts like McDonald's happy meals is not going to resolve that.

[CristyCurves 169032]

cristycurves, perhaps you misread. In the article you linked it says gonorrhea is not spread through saliva:

 

 

 

DATY and DFK are legitimately less risky than BBBJ when it comes to gonorrhea (though still risky for some other STIs.)

 

Yes my mistake, my apologies. Thank you Regent for correcting me, and for doing so politely. But I still stand for my opinion on risk is risk. :)But it is up to the provider what risk she or he is going to take and if you are going to favor regulating this then favor regulating rates as well;) You could divide providers into two groups here as well, high priced and low priced:)

 

 

Additional Comments:

hmmm. risk is risk is risk? nope.. driving on the highway is a risk for sure.. driving at 50 km/hr over the speed limit is riskier.. 100? riskier yet.

 

Using that logic.. BBFS is no riskier than BBBJ

 

Carrie I didn't know driving was like having sex;) Thank you for the comparison. Your comparison isn't my logic at all though, you're missing my point but when you want to twist something it can be twisted. We all view and see things as we want to. Risk IS risk, my point is arguing over what is more or less is silly as taking any risk can open an sp to contracting something. I think the only ones that can really have an argument over safe sexual practices are those who practice truly safe sex and that is with one tested partner or having none at all. Your and Fortunate's point of view as I see it seems to be it's all right to take part in sexual activities that involve some risk just don't take part in sexual activities that involve MORE risk. I find that silly because it takes one time, one incident , one encounter to contract something even when involved in low risk play. So I guess I can see your point, taking a chance is okay it's HOW you take the chance that matters, ahhh :) Seriously take what risks you or anyone chooses, everything providers do involves some. Please don't criticize me or my logic or anyone else's because I choose to take more or less risk than you or anyone else, that is my point. We should all be able to make our choices as to how we see fit to provide and what services we are willing to partake in, that shouldn't be anyone's business but the two involved. Valuing safety levels is not our jobs, limiting risk levels is. But I'll never say anyone is safer. Again, as long as we are all taking any kind of risk then we are taking a chance

[Ann Gallerie 7910]

I just got back from my doctor. He is a specialist. Even specialists can have different opinions, so do as you wish with this; I am just passing on the news; obviously this is very personal and up to you.

 

Recievers are at greater risk of infection. If you have recent dental work, an infection, sore, or have brushed your teeth or used floss aggressively, the risk is greater.

 

Apparently if you use mouth wash before and/or after, it reduces the risk.

 

Hope this helps.

[Brad 49548]

I just got back from my doctor. He is a specialist. Even specialists can have different opinions, so do as you wish with this; I am just passing on the news; obviously this is very personal and up to you.

 

Recievers are at greater risk of infection. If you have recent dental work, an infection, sore, or have brushed your teeth or used floss aggressively, the risk is greater.

 

Apparently if you use mouth wash before and/or after, it reduces the risk.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

I'm not a doctor but I've played one in bed, so take that for what it's worth, but what you say does sound similar to what I've read and heard elsewhere. Thanks!

 

I'd agree with those who say each person has to agree on what level or amount of risk they are willing to accept, and only do that which they are comfortable with. I think it's a shame when anyone is pressured, even implicitly, into doing more than they are comfortable with.

[Regent 35404]

I think it's really important to think of risk as existing on a spectrum, because really, every time we have contact with another human being, there is some risk of some infection. So rather than think of things as a risky or not risky binary, it makes more sense to look at things as more or less risky, recognizing that all things entail risk.

 

Even if you use condoms, dental dams and gloves and avoid kissing entirely, there are still infections that can be transmitted through skin to skin contact, such as herpes, HPV, syphilis, chanceroid, molluscum, etc, plus infections that aren't considered STIs, like MRSA.

 

Every action and choice we make in life has associated risks and benefits. Ideally, we can have enough accurate information to know the risks, and assess what the benefits are to each of us, so that whatever choice we make, it's an informed one where the benefits outweigh the risks for that particular individual.

[Ann Gallerie 7910]

I can recall a few times getting on the subway where we were pushed together closely. Not a kleenex in sight, and I am asthmatic. Being around people can be dangerous!

 

Dr T also mentioned that risk increases with exposure. The probability that BBBJ is a problem is greater with frequent flyers. Problem is, it just takes one.

 

I have a suggestion that probably occurred to many of you. Asthmatics have no choice but to take risks, they are all around us. It really burns my posterior that even simple kissing is verboten! Keeping and staying healthy will reduce the possibility of infection.

 

Eat and sleep well, and love yourself!

[muncher459 1040]

Was just in last Monday for regular screening at the local SHC. I asked the nurse about the stories going around about "incurable" gonorrhea... yes it does require use of different drugs as the bug mutates, but currently in Canada, there are still drugs that do the job, for genital infections oral antibiotics are the norm, oral or anal infections are treated using injections. Some places where there is a problem, intravenous treatment is the standard practice.

 

Also of interest is that syphilis is becoming more prevalent again.