Clients, what will you do if the Nordic model becomes law

[Jason Fergusson 1408]

A few years ago, I was living in the heart of Toronto's gay community. As I am an open minded person, I have never had any prejudices against gays. I had had coworkers who were gay and it never bothered me. However, for the first time, I had the opportunity to get to know gay men personally because my neighbours were gay. I made it clear to them that I was not gay and I became friends with them.

Getting to know gay men was an interesting experience. I learned a lot about gay culture. Gay culture has its own set of values that are totally different from the "heterosexual, white, Christian" culture that I grew up in.

I am interested to see how Bill C-36 will impact gay culture and if the government will have the audacity to impose their values on gay culture?

For example, in gay culture, the sugar daddy and sugar baby relationship is quite common. Young men have older boyfriends who provide for them financially in exchange for a sexual relationship. I have witnessed this several times. Many times, I was surprised to see a boy, who was barely out of his teens, dating a grey haired man. In gay culture, these relationships are not shameful. In contrast, heterosexual culture frowns upon sugar daddy/sugar baby relationships.

Bill C-36 would make the sugar daddy a criminal because of the transactional nature of his relationship with the sugar baby. The opposition from the gay community will be great. I still remember the opposition that the government faced from the gay community when they raised the age of consent in 2008. The gay community was opposed to the age of consent for anal sex being set at 18.

The age of consent law and Bill C-36 show that the government is totally out of touch with the main stream. Most people want sexual freedom not oppression.

[porter 170]

If I read the bill the way it is written, it makes marriage illegal

[kerrixoxo 33719]

If I read the bill the way it is written, it makes marriage illegal

 

The DOJ's technical paper says it should not be interpreted that way by the courts. But how it actually plays out in reality as opposed to theory, two different things.

 

I recommend clients establishing themselves on boards with their handles or become familiar with the reference process (asking if a provider uses them or how she verifies clients) and also using references. References aren't used by all providers though. Joining a verification is another option.

 

I see some clients use twitter--make that private ASAP! Don't tweet using the Bill c-36 hashtag. I know you want to engage in the discussion but how the abolitionists use that hashtag is brutal! Just avoid using the hashtag at all costs. You can tweet about the Bill but the way I see the antis use the hashtag--just don't use it.

 

Scanning the hashtag and seeing the antis makes me sick to my stomach each time. :(

[roamingguy 300292]

One thing about seeing regulars, no need to discuss fees or services. The email/text/phone call would read/sound like a man and woman getting together for another date

And with shared memories and shared history, you can always talk in a code that no cop would understand. Make reference to dates you had in the past, something about them that only you and the lady would know

Also, and especially in the case of touring ladies, which police department would even investigate. I'm from smalltown Ontario with a small OPP detachment, are they going to track me seeing a lady who's hometown is somewhere in Canada, or is it that lady's hometown police force, or the police force of the place we meet that investigates.

Anyhow why would I stop seeing ladies, none of my emails now are incriminating and I see reputable ladies

A rambling

 

RG

[Guest Cr**gCa***ng]

I am going to continue along as I have in that I will be discrete and will do my research/homework before I see anyone new so I voted I will not change. Frankly, I am not panicking and I will deal with this if and when the time comes. Anyone I see or have seen is perfectly safe with me and is well treated so I do my part from a client perspective. Also, I am establishing a network of a few ladies with whom I am comfortable and with whom there is some chemistry. Besides, I don't pay for sex; I pay for companionship. I would like to see how anyone can prove in court that I have been paying for sex when I see an established provider and everything takes place behind closed doors between us. While I understand the need to keep women or children from being exploited and abused and to curtail human trafficking and coercion, this proposed legislation is going to do more harm than good in that respect.

[mrgreen760 37785]

I'll see how it all plays out.....if it becomes too much hassle, I'll move along. And certainly after the events of yesterday i'll provide little if any personal information to any one..

 

Peace

MG

[spud271 47779]

This will become a very easy situation to deal with in my case...I'm leaving the country, so I'm not exactly going to be affected by it.

[conquistador 18487]

This will become a very easy situation to deal with in my case...I'm leaving the country, so I'm not exactly going to be affected by it.

You're lucky in the UK ;)

[peacectryguy 12547]

Well, for me, I don't see things changing at all or at least, very little. I already don't talk about services, rates etc. on texts and emails. I also only deal with established reputable providers. I use boards like this one and CAF regularly so I know who these ladies are to some degree and then there are the ladies that I have repeat business with. We will figure it out pretty easily. As the case is now, discretion is key.

 

I do understand those that are afraid of the criminal record part. If you are in a job that requires a certain amount of discretion and possible foreign travel, that could be problematic for sure. The thing there is by using the tools we have already described, the odds of actually being arrested and charged go down dramatically. L.E. are not going to be going out looking for the one guy visiting one lady. They don't have the time, resources or the inclination to do so. Now the fool who is trolling the backstreets looking for streetwalkers is another story.

 

The biggest problem I am having with the discussion is the completely over-the-top paranoia that seems to be arising from some. "The cops will assign an officer to sit at a desk and monitor e-mails all day and radio out each time there is a meeting set up" was one I read a while back. That is not going to happen, they have much bigger fish to fry. Or another was "they will park outside a known providers incall location and harass every guy that goes in". I mean really, that is just silly. A 20 unit condo complex and they try to bust everybody? The biggest one that I see quite often is the talk of being sent to jail. No judge in his right mind will send a guy to jail for this regardless of how the law is written. Hell, they are hard pressed to send and keep the real sexual predators in jail. If a judge did give jail time, it would be overturned on appeal quickly and the law would be fast- tracked to demolition and all those involved in the justice system know this. For myself, I just am not worried about it. It is not worth the stress and like an old song says "stop wishing for bad luck and knocking on wood".

[piano8950 32577]

Delete twitter, maybe deactivate Cerb and other forum accounts. Stick with people I know and have seen. Perhaps stop all together. Unfortunately, risk/reward doesn't make sense. And I really don't know how fanatical this government can be.

 

For the first time as a Canadian, I am scared of my government :(

[cinelli 22184]

Talking about buying is not illegal so closing your cerb account should not be necessary.

There are lots of 420 forums where posters are pretty blunt.

I plan on sticking with trustworthy companions nonetheless.

My main concern is LE coming down really hard on some poor girl and making her co-operate in an entrapment operation or going through all her phone records/emails/social media.

Yes LE have more important things to do but they may be explicitly directed to do exactly that by their civilian administrators. Just like there are unsolved murders but there are still units conducting speed limit enforcement. Most departments have specific units for sex/vice and this is right up their alley.

[peacectryguy 12547]

Talking about buying is not illegal so closing your cerb account should not be necessary.

There are lots of 420 forums where posters are pretty blunt.

I plan on sticking with trustworthy companions nonetheless.

My main concern is LE coming down really hard on some poor girl and making her co-operate in an entrapment operation or going through all her phone records/emails/social media.

Yes LE have more important things to do but they may be explicitly directed to do exactly that by their civilian administrators. Just like there are unsolved murders but there are still units conducting speed limit enforcement. Most departments have specific units for sex/vice and this is right up their alley.

I do agree that LE may try to pull a few stings here and there in major cities where they have some flexibility in their budget. But only at first, imo, just to appease the politicians. I can't say for sure and I don't know what forces like OPP will be like. However, I find it highly unlikely that the more remote areas where a small detachment of RCMP is the only law in town, will actually devote a quarter of their force to investigate and target any more than they are now. Some time back, I was having some "pillow talk" with an SP friend and she said the cops came to her motel room one day. All they wanted to know was that she was of legal age and not being coerced or forced by a pimp. They knew full well that she was using the room as an incall (which is still illegal, btw) and didn't really care. They were just concerned with her safety and nothing more. Of course, up here in the north country, LE has a different perspective about the laws and how to enforce them.

[cinelli 22184]

Different forces will definitely have different responses depending on their size.

 

The federal government may allocate specific funds for enforcement, but going into election season they will have other priorities themselves. I could see them having a photo op raid on a parlor so they can proclaim their success on TV.

[roamingguy 300292]

Just wondering how the police would ever enforce C36 in multi jurisdictional cases. I live in smalltown Ontario policed by a local (and small) OPP detachment. I see ladies in bigger cities, including touring ladies. Now some of those ladies tour. Would the lady's hometown (wherever that is) police force be involved. And that police force may be located in another province, depending on the lady I see. Finally, she and I would meet in another city, not my town nor her hometown, so a third local police force would need to get involved.

Plus I repeat with some ladies so when I book an encounter with a lady I repeated with over email/text/or phone it would sound like I'm just talking about getting together for a date, nothing about a client meeting a professional companion. And if a repeat date, well there are shared memories and histories only that lady and I know and have and can be used in emails/conversation to establish where we'll meet, right to hotel room, without even revealing the city.

Even payment can be done electronically via email money transfer. My experience is that ladies have a separate email for money transfers. You can email money transfer, without any message attached to the email money transfer...then no proof that the money is for an encounter

I guess my point is that in seeing professional escorts, it is a lot harder for LE to enforce. And keep any discussion of services and money out of the conversation. Which is easier, cheaper and would yield more high visibility results for police (not to mention Crown prosecutions), a multi jurisdictional investigation of a professional companion and client seeing each other discretely, or a couple plainclothes officers in unmarked cruisers

going after street prostitution. And which local paper gets the headlines?

I hate C36. But just because it is a terrible law, those in law enforcement don't share MacKay's ideological thoughts. Police are realists and at the end of the day will still enforce prostitution laws as before, focusing on street prostitution. How many police raids of escorts operating incalls discreetly can you recall under current laws.

Anyhow, a rambling

 

RG

[peacectryguy 12547]

Police are realists and at the end of the day will still enforce prostitution laws as before, focusing on street prostitution. How many police raids of escorts operating incalls discreetly can you recall under current laws.

Anyhow, a rambling

 

RG

That is my thinking too. I have worked with and known several RCMP officers over the years. There are a few who can be hard asses but the vast majority use common sense and good judgement and they understand that the courts are already too overloaded and the jails are too full. They also understand that some legislation is flawed and only serves to increase their already heavy workload while making the politicians look good in the eyes of the general populace. The gun registry was that type of law just as this law is.

[mrgreen760 37785]

Regardless of enforcement the less committed will move along both providers and customers. Those who prefer variety vs a regular will think twice I expect. It'll be very difficult for new talent to break into the game.

 

Peace

MG

[Guest N***he**Ont**y]

When the bill passes I will only be seeing those I have seen before or have established some communication with all ready. All appointments will be discretely done and I am afraid no more recommendations will be written by me.

[waterat 20911]

I will carry on as I have always done. The sooner the bill is challenged the better. I doubt that it will be me involved but I will be supportive. If it is to be me: Bring it on!

[cinelli 22184]

^ Challenging the last law was what got us into this mess. One step forward two steps back.

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[roamingguy 300292]

Just remember, yes it is in the political limelight in Ottawa, but does anyone really believe that cops are sitting in their cruisers eagerly awaiting the passing of C36?

For LE it will be business as usual

If LE were true believers, they wouldn't need C36

Since living off the avails is illegal, why are there so many escort agencies and no big police raids

A lot of ladies offer incall dates. Why no raids on a lady's incall...easy enough to find a lady that offers a date at her home or hotel

Human trafficking, well if such a big LE concern, why not investigate and enforce it now. There are already laws on the books

Same holds true with underage prostitution, if such a big LE concern, why not investigate and enforce it now

As for reading your email and looking at websites you view, internet users privacy has been upheld by SCC

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/internet-users-privacy-upheld-by-canada-s-top-court-1.2673823

Cops would need a warrant to search your internet use (and I assume email too, need internet for that) To get enough evidence to go to a judge requires a fair bit of investigation before hand. I really don't see police having the resources and time for it...they don't now, what's going to change

Those of us discreetly practicing this lifestyle (two consenting adults behind closed doors) and JMO really have nothing to fear. It's going to be street prostitution that's LE focus

 

I know, I must sound like a record skipping LOL

 

RG

[conquistador 18487]

RG, that's great that you are confident about the LE and you'll have no problem with visiting an SP, and I look forward to your first reco when the law is passed... Which I think will happen, maybe with only sight changes.

 

As for me, I would really have to think about continuing in this lifestyle, I won't be as comfortable with lots to lose. Maybe with established SPs that I've met will be easier to arrange something... But someone new, no.

 

And that's the consensus I read on here, known SPs will fine to see and unknown ones will probably not be seen.

 

It's whatever your risk level is at...I will probably not take that risk when it's fully illegal to see a provider, incall and outcall!

 

It's a shame really that we have to be going through all this, but this is life I guess.

[loopie 15358]

I don't understand this perception that LE doesn't already investigate crimes related to the sex trade. They do. LE does have squads devoted to human trafficking, prostitution, and underage exploitation.

 

The police already do place officers undercover as streetwalking prostitutes. The police already do scan prostitution ads on the internet and investigate cases where they suspect underage exploitation. The RCMP does commit resources to fighting human trafficking.

 

Yes, LE has limits to their resources and will continue to have limits to their resources. But having limited resources isn't the same as having no resources at all. Yes, LE does not bust everybody who breaks existing laws, but they do make arrests.

[roamingguy 300292]

I don't understand this perception that LE doesn't already investigate crimes related to the sex trade. They do. LE does have squads devoted to human trafficking, prostitution, and underage exploitation.

 

The police already do place officers undercover as streetwalking prostitutes. The police already do scan prostitution ads on the internet and investigate cases where they suspect underage exploitation. The RCMP does commit resources to fighting human trafficking.

 

Yes, LE has limits to their resources and will continue to have limits to their resources. But having limited resources isn't the same as having no resources at all. Yes, LE does not bust everybody who breaks existing laws, but they do make arrests.

 

One of the arguments for C36 is that it will combat sex trafficking. It is MacKay et al that create this perception. The point, I guess I poorly made is that laws exist already. C36 isn't needed to combat something when other laws already exist to combat it

I've never argued street prostitution isn't going to be targeted, in fact I argued LE's focus is likely going to be on street prostitution. In terms of LE resources it's require little resources with high return (arrests) as opposed to going after a client and courtesan who act discreetly .

But for all the fears abounding about C36 I just wonder why no one, well relatively few were in fear of existing laws, such as no incalls, no agencies

(living off the avails) and so on

And even MacKay's speech about C36 seemed all focused on street prostitution. My opinion is that those who se escorts/courtesans discretely are not going to be targeted by LE. And as long as talk of sex and money is kept out of any communications be it email/text/pm/phone then what can you be charged with?

Anyhow...

RG

[Tempted Monk 5057]

At this moment, it is just theoretical discussion. But if this law passes as is (or similar to the current reduction) it will be change to the game. The client is the target of this law, it is intention of this law to put clients at risk. When it becomes the reality, LE will need to demonstrate this law is working. And we will see new cops activity in this area and some charges will be imposed, at least for some first period of time.

At that moment each of the potential client will have to decide to take the risk or not. Pool results show that 65% will go out or stay with the regular provider. I believe, this percentage will be really higher when this new law becomes a reality.

[Liv Waters 52360]

^ Challenging the last law was what got us into this mess. One step forward two steps back.

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The laws still needed to be challenged, bottom line. The fact that the decision was handed down at the time it was is highly unfortunate. No one could have predicted what the timing would be as the challenge was several years in the making. The fact we are in the midst of the threat of Bill C-36 should not deter us from appreciating the sacrifices of my colleagues who launched this Charter Challenge, the historical significance of the case, and our related efforts as a Movement. So, if the Bill passes, sex workers will be in there like a dirty shirt launching new challenges, I assure you.