Question about just 'hanging out' with SPs.

[SuperNewf 1394]

I know that virtually all SPs have a very strict 'no contact outside the paid client/SP context' policy with clients, but at the same time I see SPs on this board arranging to just hang out with each other socially all the time.

 

I'm just curious as to what leads to this double standard, and why a casual friendship similar to the ones between the SPs is not possible with a client in addition to (or perhaps instead of if the client, say, finds an SO and retires from hobbying) the paid intimate one.

 

Or, perhaps why all the SPs who use the reason that they have lives and schedules outside of their SP identity as a reason not to see clients in this way see other SPs in this way, clearly bringing their SP identity with them as it's how they connected with each other.

[Winnipegcub 21293]

SPs and MAs are professionals that provide a service which has a cost. For us the clients it is their time, intimacy, services and companionship that we buy. That isn't to say that an SP/MA and client would never meet socially or 'off the clock' but it's not nor should be their business model or our expectation.

 

I think of it this way.

I pay a lawyer for his/her advice. They get my $ and I get their advice. Would 2 lawyers meet socially? For sure. But should I expect a lawyer to meet with me, provide their advice and I don't pay? I just call it a 'social' meeting? No

 

I'm not sure if I've explained it well but for me - I totally get it and have no problems with the relationships I have.

 

Cub

[Winnipegcub 21293]

My lawyer comment was not a quote from you. It was an example.

In any event you posted a question and I thought my comment was fair.

 

I'm seeing way too many times recently when someone posts something, they get comments back, and then it turns into a great debate.

I'm not here for those debates and was simply trying to offer my perspective and response.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood your OP.

I'll leave it for others to provide you their advice.

 

Cub

[Cleo Catra 178382]

I never said that if you were friends with a lawyer you would expect to ask for or receive legal advice during a social meeting. I actually flat out said the opposite.

 

I never said it was a business model or expectation either; if it happened it would be for the same reasons that any generic friendship happens.

 

The specific thing I was thinking is in the context of these arranged gatherings of SPs, why wouldn't there ever be an identical gathering with several SPs and some hobbiests too (many of whom have said they have developed close friendships with several SPs themselves).

 

I also want to make it explicit that this is not something I am interested in ever doing (I don't even have any friends at all and aren't interested), it is a purely hypothetical musing because I don't understand the double standard.

 

I don't see how spending time with a fellow SP, who essentially could be viewed as a coworker , is at all comparable to hanging out with a client . It's not the same, and I don't see any form of double standard.

 

That said, there ARE gatherings with SPs that include hobbiests. Ottawa holds a social four times a year, and Halifax does once or twice as well.

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

Some sps have a social rate for clients. So money is still exchanged for these times. If you ask the guys if they get this time for free they will tell you otherwise.

[LeeRichards 177238]

Like Cleo said there is no double standard .... there is no real comparison.

 

Also like Cleo said there are socials. I have been to two and they are a blast :) If there is one in Hali again or maybe you can get involved in arranging one in St John's then even better.

 

Unless an SP has retired and wants to be friends and hang out which I do have now........ I would never ever expect that to happen otherwise.

 

They do like to hang out with me when I pay them tho.... maybe even have fun and be happy !! :) That's how we all should roll....I believe.

 

Unlike my ex wife. I ended up paying her PLENTY to NOT hang out with me.....EVAR...AGAIN!!. She still wasn't happy damnitt ........... ;)

[Miss Jessica Lee 43328]

Just my take .... I get together with like minded ladies in the biz to network.

 

I love some of my colleagues dearly, they have helped me infinitely in touring plans, avoiding bad dates, dodging drama, and sharing experiences.

 

I don't get together with my colleagues to chat about parents, kids, my personal life or theirs. I don't visit their homes, and they don't visit mine. We meet for dinner and drinks... sometimes for hours... because they can relate like nobody else can. Although they all know what I do, I don't talk much about my sex work with my personal friends, so it's nice to have that connection.

 

A date with a client is not at all the same thing, to me anyways.

[mrgreen760 37785]

No "double standard" at all. SP's hanging out makes perfect sense to me, lots of common ground there, they can be social, compare notes, share experiences and even blow off some steam if need be.

 

This is a pay for play game and being friendly is one thing, being friends is completely different and quite unrealistic.

 

Peace

MG

[roamingguy 300292]

I know that virtually all SPs have a very strict 'no contact outside the paid client/SP context' policy with clients, but at the same time I see SPs on this board arranging to just hang out with each other socially all the time.

 

I'm just curious as to what leads to this double standard, and why a casual friendship similar to the ones between the SPs is not possible with a client in addition to (or perhaps instead of if the client, say, finds an SO and retires from hobbying) the paid intimate one.

 

Or, perhaps why all the SPs who use the reason that they have lives and schedules outside of their SP identity as a reason not to see clients in this way see other SPs in this way, clearly bringing their SP identity with them as it's how they connected with each other.

 

There is NO DOUBLE STANDARD. A SP/Client Relationship is not like conventional relationships. The client compensates the lady for her time.

A good client understands this and does not push the boundaries to get free time. Even in cases where a client becomes friends with an SP, he still compensates the lady for her time.

As for SP's being friends with other SP's, there is no financial arrangement to their relationship to begin with so there is no problem in them being friends. On the other hand, a client claiming to want to be "friends" with an SP may just try to usurp the conventional SP/Client relationship so he can receive services from the lady without compensating the lady for her time. His claim of friendship may be a very hollow claim

 

RG

[daddio 2704]

I think this is a very useful thread. Other threads have discussed the nature of the relationship between the SP and the client or hobbyist in the context of the time they spend together. That relationship has been described as indulging in a fantasy - on the hobbyist's part. It's a good way of describing it. It's a good way for the hobbyist to remember it.

 

I can understand where the question comes from and I believe the posts have addressed the question.

 

If one is single and lives alone and one has enjoyed an intimate encounter with a SP, particularly a SP who has, through her skills and professionalism made that encounter very personal to the hobbyist, there is a danger when reflecting on the encounter, of the hobbyist slipping over the edge of the boundaries of the relationship. While that may be thought of as a tribute to the SP the hobbyist has to recognise the reality that to cross the boundary may be a genuine cause of concern and discomfort for the SP.

 

A reality check, thinking of the true SP/hobbyist relationship is always a good thing.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[peacectryguy 12547]

I agree with RG. I don't see how there can be any suggestion of a double standard. And the "friend" thing is something that rarely works, if ever. At some point, no matter how hard you try to deny it, there will be something that changes the dynamic. We can't help it. It just is what it is.

 

Myself, I really like the ladies I meet in this hobby. I mean that truly. Even when I've just met them in our first encounter, there is a true connection there. However, I would never, ever suggest any type of relationship outside of this "professional" one. It is simply that I have too much respect for the ladies and our arrangement (for lack of a better term) and would never want something that would risk changing that almost perfect situation.

 

As for the ladies being friends, that is, to me a very good thing for them whenever possible. It gives them somebody that can honestly understand the issues that arise in the profession and they can help each other face these issues and be better for it. By their being better off and happy, it makes our experiences as clients all that much better.

[Guest Cr**gCa***ng]

From a client perspective let me put this succinctly, time is money.

[Guest K***e D****ls]

My 2 cents on the topic...

 

For me, this is a business and I treat it like that. There are rules already in place, so it's already black and white. Do I have gents I'm fond of? Absolutely. Would I hang out with them for free on my own time? Absolutely not. At that point, it goes from black and white and perfectly boundaried to grey and boundaries crossed. As much as I like and respect and enjoy time with my group of guys, I already have a personal life full of supportive relationships who know all aspects about me, not just the happy go lucky side of things. I'm not in the market for making friends with gents off the clock in this environment.

 

Most of us ladies are a shined up, more polished version of our real selves. I don't have a persona- this is who I am- but I also keep everything light, fun and positive. I'm not bringing my problems from any other area of life to the table as Kylie. When financial compensation goes out the window, so does the fantasy. And you may not like the more complex person that lady is. I keep to myself but I get that for a lady to hang out with with other women and complain about whatever, it's a bonding thing as colleagues. For a gent to suddenly hear me bitch and moan about my speeding ticket, hurdles in another endeavor, health problems, a tedious get together with another gent, whatever problem, I've become a real person. That fantasy is gone and to be frank, if a lot of men wanted to hear that kind of talk, they'd return to the real world.

 

Edited to add: I would also question why a gent I've met in this world would want to 'get to know me' outside the boundaries of this world. I think I would find it a little suspect, given the paragraph I just mentioned.

[Isabella Gia (Banned) 53881]

You explained it perfectly and I fully agree with what you said here, coworkers and clients are different kind of acquaintances, one can become personal, the other one like you said is not impossible but less likely. However in none of them is cool to expect a personal rapport to happen and even less cool to question why it hasn't/won't.

 

Also, in this particular scenario mentioned by the OP, the fact that some ladies here hang out with each other doesn't mean they do it all the time or that all ladies do it.

 

SPs and MAs are professionals that provide a service which has a cost. For us the clients it is their time, intimacy, services and companionship that we buy. That isn't to say that an SP/MA and client would never meet socially or 'off the clock' but it's not nor should be their business model or our expectation.

 

I think of it this way.

I pay a lawyer for his/her advice. They get my $ and I get their advice. Would 2 lawyers meet socially? For sure. But should I expect a lawyer to meet with me, provide their advice and I don't pay? I just call it a 'social' meeting? No

 

I'm not sure if I've explained it well but for me - I totally get it and have no problems with the relationships I have.

 

Cub

[fortunateone 156618]

Last time I checked, my initial meetings with other sps didn't come about because they called me up to pay me for my services. In other words, we do not have a business relationship (defined by the fact I run a business, and that my clients pay me for my services.)

 

if I choose to meet another sp who is working in the same industry doing the same thing that I am doing, it is not for the sake of marketing/advertising that I do that. If i were to be one of those 'hang out' sps who does go for lunch or coffee, the ultimate motivator in those setups isn't networking and/or friendship, it is the potential future business that may come out of taking a step outside of the paid arena.

 

But I don't consider business networking with other business owners to be the same thing as client/sp off the clock encounters.

 

I hate to bring this up, but if we want to be successful in changing C36, we have to all work together about this issue of how we define prostitution itself. If we are calling ourselves sex workers, and this is sex work, then there needs to be a respect and agreement on both sides that everyone understands that we are running a business, we provide services, and that we are not in the business of 'selling ourselves' and doing stuff like off the clock or having clients expect off the clock or friendships, not client/provider relationships, imo just may not actually help the way others perceive us all.

 

just vague off topic ramblings, that may not actually start or end anywhere specific. :)

[Ice4fun 78407]

I kinda see this pretty simply... SP get to hang out with who ever they want when they are not working... if they want to spend time with other SP'S great... if they have made friends with clients and want to hang out with them great too.

 

The reality is keeping the boundaries tends to be important in this very intimate industry so most ladies tend to keep business ad business when it comes to clients... it's entirely up to them.

 

Just my opinion.

[piano8950 32577]

I know that virtually all SPs have a very strict 'no contact outside the paid client/SP context' policy with clients, but at the same time I see SPs on this board arranging to just hang out with each other socially all the time.

 

I'm just curious as to what leads to this double standard, and why a casual friendship similar to the ones between the SPs is not possible with a client in addition to the paid intimate one.

 

I wouldn't consider it double standards. I'm a photographer, I occasionally meet up with other photographers, we fool around, socialize, take pictures, learn, etc.

 

I don't casually photograph for clients. On occasion, I've been offered to go out for dinner, or something, but the entire time that I'm with that client, I have to behave completely. I have to put that professional part of me first. Now in my line of business, I can spare the time, as the time required for dinner would be considered time spent on marketing my service, by building up loyalty.

 

But now consider SPs. Their service is companionship. To spend additional time with a client is the same as giving away services for free. And perhaps the most important point, SPs are people. They have the right like you or I to socialize with whoever they want.

[EmilyRushton 253372]

What was actually going through my head was, noticing that SPs invite each other to spend time socially frequently, why is it that the SP would never consider inviting a client to the same kind of thing, regardless of how they might feel about the client. But Ice4Fun told me that sometimes they do. I understand that people choose to do whatever the hell they want, and never suggested otherwise. In fact, my understanding of that is what made me wonder about why they choose certain things in the first place.

 

SP's get together and hang out A) as we are friends, B) to network and C) for our own mental sanity. Why on earth would we invite a client to hang out for free when it crosses the clear black and white mixing business and pleasure line? Once you spend time off the clock with someone - do you think you will want to pay in the future? I am one who take GREAT offence to someone expecting to see me on my own time. My site is clearly written in regards to all time spent will be compensated for (Don't get me wrong I am very generous with my time on my dates) however Social time or private time I run a business and I don't mix my friends with my business acquaintances. If you want to see a lady in a social setting on your time attend a social - however you would have to buy a ticket.

 

While your question was a good one, there have been enough responses to understand how the fundamentals of how ladies run their business and how most gentlemen feel on it - they respect not crossing the line.

[Ice4fun 78407]

Alright, I think I have enough information to get a somewhat clear picture of SPs' attitudes towards clients in this regard, although most of the replies seemed to be from a client perspective. I wasn't aware that people would just assume that it was about clients asking SPs to social time when I was actually closer to wondering the opposite: SPs asking clients to social time. Clients don't invite other clients to social time so the thought of clients initiating such a thing with SPs didn't even cross my mind.

 

What was actually going through my head was, noticing that SPs invite each other to spend time socially frequently, why is it that the SP would never consider inviting a client to the same kind of thing, regardless of how they might feel about the client. But Ice4Fun told me that sometimes they do. I understand that people choose to do whatever the hell they want, and never suggested otherwise. In fact, my understanding of that is what made me wonder about why they choose certain things in the first place.

 

I understand now though that there is a strong presumption of ulterior motive on the client's part and the inability to distinguish between the social relationship and the client/SP paid relationship on the part of both parties, and this seems to be the main barrier.

 

SuperNewf let's hang on here a minute I never told you that..... where is that coming from. Please refrain from saying I said thing that I did not. My only comment on this topic was pretty simple SP's can socialize with anyone they want. For clarity purposes the actual wording is below.

 

"I kinda see this pretty simply... SP get to hang out with who ever they want when they are not working... if they want to spend time with other SP'S great... if they have made friends with clients and want to hang out with them great too.

 

The reality is keeping the boundaries tends to be important in this very intimate industry so most ladies tend to keep business to business when it comes to clients... it's entirely up to them.

 

Just my opinion."

 

[MightyPen 67414]

What was actually going through my head was, noticing that SPs invite each other to spend time socially frequently, why is it that the SP would never consider inviting a client to the same kind of thing, regardless of how they might feel about the client. ... I understand now though that there is a strong presumption of ulterior motive on the client's part and the inability to distinguish between the social relationship and the client/SP paid relationship on the part of both parties, and this seems to be the main barrier.

Yup, you've just about got it. I'd say presumption of "ulterior motive" isn't always the concern, since it implies a kind of conscious planning (or hope) to cross a boundary. That's sometimes the case, but more generally it's just expectation that drama may ensue, and is best avoided.

 

I noticed your frank self-description in the "SP/hobbyist" space ( :) ) and so I take your questions as honest attempts to decipher some of the unspoken codes of social interaction. So with that in mind, we can take a purely analytical approach to why people hang out at all, or don't. I think you can sort of break down that decision process into three items:

 

a) what does that person have to offer me?

b) how's my current supply of that thing?

c) and what are the potential downsides of interacting?

 

SPs considering hanging out with other SPs might feel that:

- they get unique and valuable insights from fellow SPs who know the same profession in depth and first-hand.

- Their supply of those insights from others is limited (they have their own insights of course, but there are relatively few SPs with whom to meet and and share).

- And the risks are minor; any misunderstandings can probably get ironed out between reasonable people since their emotional stake is limited.

 

But SPs considering hanging out with clients is a different case.

- Sure, the client may offer the usual social benefits that come with hanging out with people generally. Maybe the client has some interesting or attractive attributes. Okay, nice enough.

- But SPs are generally going to be attractive women who have little trouble finding guys who want to hang out with them, so that kind of companionship is familiar and its supply is already plentiful.

- And the risks are significant, for the reasons already covered here: guy/girl stuff is fraught with emotional investment, misunderstanding, and risk; and there's a significant chance the guy may drift over the line from wanting simple social companionship to wanting sex, and all the drama that comes with that.

 

So you can see how the calculation yields different results for two very different propositions.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

I have from time to time, I am sure some Ottawa friends may vouch for this, have offered to dine with me after we have had our special time together.

 

BUT never has it been offered if I ever felt that the person was invading my privacy, or probing me for uncomfortable conversations. It would be unexpected by them when I did offer to dine with me. That being said, it meant I was extremely at ease with them and felt they would never invade my personal life. You will find most SP's and Hobbyist rather guarded about their lives.

 

These on-line friendships came from reading threads and posts in the beginning, then eventually meet in person and from there a Gent may find himself very privileged to have been offered a dinner date after business had been taken care of.

 

Had they asked me right away, or if I felt that they were just picking my brain apart, I would more then likely end the session with a handshake and hug.

[roamingguy 300292]

There is a uniqueness to this lifestyle that doesn't exist in "civilian" lifestyle. Can a SP and Client be friends. I believe it can happen. But friendship, should it happen, should be for it's own reward. There should be no expectation of free time, or anything free for that matter. Friendship should be based on mutual trust and respect. And if you see a SP who you claim is a friend, don't be surprised that due to her livelihood as an SP, where time is money, she still will want to be compensated for her time. From her vantage point she has to consider that the hour she spends "off the books hanging out" could be an hour spent with a paying client

And a question, if the expectation is receiving free time from an SP if you are her "friend" what are you in exchange giving the SP for her free time.

Relationships, including SP/Client and friendships are two way streets

Here is a quote from Nathalie Lefebvre, which has equal applicability to friendships with SP's IMHO

 

"Money does not necessarily corrupt authentic love and intimacy, rather, it's our discomfort with the idea of mixing both that causes tension. I think it's important to keep in mind that most relationships have unnegotiated financial dynamics (for example, many marriages and long-term relationships) which can cause much more tension than the honest and open communication that's possible with clients in this industry."

 

If you are seeking out a SP to hang out with, without having to pay, that is not friendship. That shows no respect for her livelihood, or for her time.

But should you connect with a companion, you both like, trust and have mutual respect for one another, yes you could be friends. But that doesn't mean getting free time. What is means is you are friends, and friendship is it's own reward. And don't apply the criteria of civilian society regarding relationships to this lifestyle This lifestyle has it's own set of unwritten rules. In short, just my opinion, yes it's possible for a friendship to take place but friendship is not equal to free time

 

A rambling

 

RG

[star99 4852]

SuperNewf let's hang on here a minute I never told you that..... where is that coming from. Please refrain from saying I said thing that I did not. My only comment on this topic was pretty simple SP's can socialize with anyone they want. For clarity purposes the actual wording is below.

 

"I kinda see this pretty simply... SP get to hang out with who ever they want when they are not working... if they want to spend time with other SP'S great... if they have made friends with clients and want to hang out with them great too.

 

The reality is keeping the boundaries tends to be important in this very intimate industry so most ladies tend to keep business to business when it comes to clients... it's entirely up to them.

 

Just my opinion."

 

I totally agree with you. long story. don't want to get into it on here.

[Ice4fun 78407]

I don't understand... You told me that you didn't say that but then you said it again. They can hang out with anybody they choose to, which would include clients as well, wouldn't it? Hence saying that there wasn't actually a rule that an SP was not allowed to try to interact with anybody who was a client outside of the intimate paid relationship parameters like I had previously thought. So, if they want to, they just do it?

 

Being a sex worker is but one dimension of who these people are Just like everyone else they have the right to choose who they want to be friends with they may choose other sex workers or they may choose clients or they may choose people in their community who they have things in common with... yoga... wine... sports... bike riding... travel... who the fuck knows the possibilities are endless.

 

Saying that SP's are free to choose their friends is just common sense.... they are people Sex Work is their business. My stating that blatant fact is not the same thing as saying that SPs choose to be friends with clients.... As I said in the last paragraph of my initial post.... due to the level of intimate connection in this line of work SPs tend to keep business just that ...business.

 

So could they be your friend and see you socially off the clock sure and I could hypothetical win the lottery.... chances are both will not happen.

[Ice4fun 78407]

Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking, hence my confusion about it being stated as essentially 'impossible.' Saying that it can happen sometimes isn't making a statement about what a group 'tends' to do like the statement 'Sps choose to be friends with clients' is... I don't even understand statements like those as are they aren't specific enough for me to comprehend. I'd get stuck asking things like: Which SPs? What percentage of the time do they choose X? Which clients? Etc.

 

All I meant by saying 'sometimes' is 'not never'. I apologize for the confusion. It is reassuring to know that it will probably never happen to me though, I just worry about these things because I am used to most of the situations in my life being the exceptions to rules, in most cases to my detriment.

 

Apology accepted.... I Give Up