How does society expect a client to behave in this industry?

[PatrickGC 10792]

A quick note of explanation: This post started as a reply to another thread regarding a rating area or scheme for clientele.(Here,) As I posed my two alternate questions it occurred to me it might better stand on its own as a separate thread because it really does concern societal standards.

 

Yes indeed, this idea has been spun in various flavors quite a few times before, both here and at other places on the Internet. The questions I would like to see posted to the public in the media is:

 

• How does society expect a client to behave in this industry? And,
  
• if that standard differs from social norms, what is the reason for the variance?
  

The following is my opinion:

 

I am willing to bet my last dollar that the above questions would expose both a debate in the public media and a massive double standard for those in this industry, on both the provider and client-side. This negative inequality is perpetuated by bureaucracies in order to further justify other inequalities in our society... and on it goes. But answering the above two questions openly in public discussion might help began to turn the tide.

 

I know I will live to see this industry and all those involved given back their rights, and I hope to see other major positive humanitarian changes in my lifetime is well.

 

PatrickGC

[Phaedrus 209521]

At the risk of going all Debbie Downer on you... I'm going to anyway.

 

I think that society's current expectations of clients are very low, but this is profoundly connected to society's impressions of sex workers. Unfortunately, the average person's vision of a sex worker is probably very negative. She might be a drug addict working for her pimp/dealer, or a trafficking victim at the mercy of the gang that got her into the country, but the general impression is of someone who is at the mercy of a person (or people) who control her activities, income, and entire life; she's turning tricks for their benefit, and she'll never see any of the proceeds. And that's before you even consider the idea that she may be underage... long story short; she's desperate, on the fringes of society, and she'll do what it takes to earn a few bucks to get her through the next day.

 

That, in turn, feeds society's opinion of the client; he's a guy who just wants to get his rocks off. He doesn't give a damn about the well-being of the provider he sees; he doesn't care where the money goes. And he doesn't care that the girl sucking his cock may be, in the eyes of the law, a child. Society expects him to take what he can get; if he can, he'll rape a provider if he thinks he can get away with it. Long story short: he's an asshole, exploiting the vulnerable, and society expect him to behave as such.

 

Now, everyone reading this post knows damn well that the impressions I've just outlined are absolute crap, and are in no way representative of this industry. Most of the ladies involved are doing exactly what they want to be doing, including a lot of the ones who have entered the country illegally. Most of the clients are, whatever their tastes in terms of age, not looking for someone under the age of majority; most of us would care if we met someone who we felt was being coerced in any way, and a lot of us would make an effort do something about it. Most of the ladies are not on drugs. Most of them are not under the control of anyone, even if they do choose to work for an agency. And most of us are also aware that not all sex workers are female, and not all clients are male. All of these things are... things that society as a whole doesn't get.

 

The fundamental problem is the invisibility of the industry as a whole. I suspect that almost every adult in the country knows folks who are involved in this industry, as either clients or providers; they just don't know it, because none of us have neon signs on our foreheads. These things are changing, slowly; I've noticed over the past few years that sex workers' organizations have become more visible and have begun to get their message across in the mainstream press. This is a long, slow task (think of turning around an oil tanker) but they've made a good start, and people are - slowly - beginning to notice, and get their heads around the idea that there are a lot of sex workers out there who are strong and independent people who are doing exactly what they want to be doing. Clients are still much lower profile, despite being far more numerous, but I hope that will change. The recent changes in the law were designed in part to inhibit that, but I'm optimistic that eventually, reality will shine through.

 

It'll be a long fight, and like many of these fights it'll take a generation or two and the road will be far from smooth. They say that a lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on... but when the truth starts kicking, the game's almost over.

 

We'll get there.

[CristyCurves 169032]

At the risk of going all Debbie Downer on you... I'm going to anyway.

 

I think that society's current expectations of clients are very low, but this is profoundly connected to society's impressions of sex workers. Unfortunately, the average person's vision of a sex worker is probably very negative. She might be a drug addict working for her pimp/dealer, or a trafficking victim at the mercy of the gang that got her into the country, but the general impression is of someone who is at the mercy of a person (or people) who control her activities, income, and entire life; she's turning tricks for their benefit, and she'll never see any of the proceeds. And that's before you even consider the idea that she may be underage... long story short; she's desperate, on the fringes of society, and she'll do what it takes to earn a few bucks to get her through the next day.

 

That, in turn, feeds society's opinion of the client; he's a guy who just wants to get his rocks off. He doesn't give a damn about the well-being of the provider he sees; he doesn't care where the money goes. And he doesn't care that the girl sucking his cock may be, in the eyes of the law, a child. Society expects him to take what he can get; if he can, he'll rape a provider if he thinks he can get away with it. Long story short: he's an asshole, exploiting the vulnerable, and society expect him to behave as such.

 

Now, everyone reading this post knows damn well that the impressions I've just outlined are absolute crap, and are in no way representative of this industry. Most of the ladies involved are doing exactly what they want to be doing, including a lot of the ones who have entered the country illegally. Most of the clients are, whatever their tastes in terms of age, not looking for someone under the age of majority; most of us would care if we met someone who we felt was being coerced in any way, and a lot of us would make an effort do something about it. Most of the ladies are not on drugs. Most of them are not under the control of anyone, even if they do choose to work for an agency. And most of us are also aware that not all sex workers are female, and not all clients are male. All of these things are... things that society as a whole doesn't get.

 

But what you've outlined isn't crap, there in lines the reasons the public perceptions are as they are. There are a lot of clients that don't give a crap, they are there just to get their rocks off and couldn't care a less about the escorts position in life. A lot of the women are in this business because of poverty, drugs, abuse and other negative reasons. Sadly all of these things are true and do shed negativity on the business. There are also many women who have chosen this profession, who are happy to be in it and who are using it as a stepping stone in a positive way. There are also clients who seek out this type of escort and will only interact with responsible and professional women.

The negativity of this business is harsh, real and unfortunately always overshadows the positives. As does the theory that a cheating man/women is a bad man/woman, as is the one he/she is cheating with. The fact that a lot of clients are attached also solidifies society's belief that those involved in this business cause the ruin of marriages and other relationships. That many of us are evil seductresses who have no morals or self respect. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in society to openly admit that an escort could actually enhance or help a coupled relationship, or that an escort may be an educated, level headed, productive member of society.

These are my beliefs from my experiences in this business. I also believe that until society becomes more "European" towards sex, meaning, more accepting and open about it, the acceptance and opinions towards sex workers and their clients will stay unwanted and negative:(

[Guest S****r]

Well said, Phaedrus. My thoughts, too.

 

In addition, I don't think most of society outside of our circle even gives much thought to any of us on either side (client or escort) and therefore doesn't really have any expectations.

[Midnite-Energies 110563]

I think "society" in general falls into two camps. The first are those who were taught that this industry is wrong and hurtful to people and those involved are sick or drug riddled or whatever. They had the stigma attached to their thinking and they never questioned it nor looked any further into it but will react with it when required.

 

The other camp doesn't really think about it or care. They are mostly focused on themselves and their lives and what others do doesn't have any real impact. This is the group that as an industry we need to reach because some of the new laws, ours included, could have actual impact on them even though it's not specifically about them. If the government feels taking away our rights and freedoms is okay and they do so unchallenged, who is to say they won't try it with the rest of the people in some capacity.

 

It's like the anti-bullying law they have that gives access to private records and conversations via cell and email. How many people pay attention to the fact that police can charge you if you don't give over your phone password even without a warrant.

 

The first camp has the loudest voices and aren't afraid to use them and can influence others because of this. They paint us with the ugliest brushes, client and worker alike. Most, no matter what we say or what we show them, will probably still continue to believe what they want. The other camp I believe, can be swayed or at least remain neutral. They are usually impacted by whatever personally touches them. This is when it could be important for them to know someone.

 

I would love to see a positive wave of impact it's just difficult to stand up and be heard when you are unsure of the impact.

[roamingguy 300292]

My opinion is that society as a whole doesn't care. This is a lifestyle that doesn't impact them, so they just don't give it a thought. Prior to the new legislation I'd wager if you asked any Canadian on a street corner (oooppps maybe a bad choice of words LOL) they would have said prostitution is illegal.

And most likely don't even know the law has been changed

I think what is more important is educating both clients and prospective clients and companions and prospective companions into what is proper etiquette and behaviour. I'm less worried about what society thinks of how we should behave, and more concerned about being the best client I can be. And passing along any tidbits of advice I can. To this end a board and community like Lyla is a very useful forum for the sharing of ideas and learning about this lifestyle. I know it was beneficial to me in my early days of this lifestyle

So I'd say just be the best client/companion you can be. And don't worry about societal expectations, because society likely doesn't even care

My take on it

 

RG

[mrrnice2 157005]

The questions I would like to see posted to the public in the media are:

 

• How does society expect a client to behave in this industry? And,
  
• if that standard differs from social norms, what is the reason for the variance?
  

 

I am willing to bet my last dollar that the above questions would expose both a debate in the public media and a massive double standard for those in this industry, on both the provider and client-side. This negative inequality is perpetuated by bureaucracies in order to further justify other inequalities in our society... and on it goes. But answering the above two questions openly in public discussion might help began to turn the tide.

 

I know I will live to see this industry and all those involved given back their rights, and I hope to see other major positive humanitarian changes in my lifetime is well.

 

PatrickGC

 

There have already been such good and thoughtful responses to this thread. If I try to narrow it down to the two specific questions posed then perhaps I may differ somewhat from what has been said to this point, not that I disagree with anything posted to this point.

 

For society to respond to how they would expect a client to behave there must be a presumption that society knows this exists, even if society does not understand why clients seek out companions. My idealism still exists and I believe that with the above premise, society would expect a client to behave properly, respectfully and in the same way that non-participants expect to be treated in their own lives.

 

Therefore I believe that standard for clients agrees with presumed social norms.

 

However if one looks at the questions from the perspective of the non-participant, the beliefs of society I expect are quite the opposite. The existing stereotypes, even with all of the media coverage in the last year, are still perpetuated. Even five years ago before I discovered this world I did not think of it too much, but when I did I would have assumed that clients were losers and rough and low lifes, and that companions were used and were druggies or criminals. Sad eh, and I am supposed to be a reasonably intelligent man.

 

Thanks for the thread Patrick.

MN2

[Kate von Katz 49953]

Phaedrus, as so often, really nailed it for me.

 

From my perspective, which is inherently slanted because I myself am involved in this industry, I agree with most insofar as society doesn't give a rat's hairy keister about either the companions or the clients.

 

The general census is that companions are uneducated, drug addled women with daddy issues. We know this is not true at all, but general society doesn't. It's a stereotype that is prevalent and detrimental, and it contributes to society's apathy regarding companion's rights and safety.

 

As for clients, I don't think society has any expectations or preconceived notions other than that they are depraved, perverse and perhaps having a physical reason for needing "to pay for it" (being obese, ugly, etc.). Again, we all know this stereotype is no truer than the preconceived notions of companions, and yet it persists.

 

Beyond those basic assumptions about what kind of people we are, it would seem no further thought is given on the subject. The average member of society is ignorant in the true sense of the word: they simply have no actual knowledge and therefor they presume stereotypes to be truth and leave it at that.

 

That's my opinion, anyhow... :)

[FunAdventures 4501]

I completely agree with CristyCurves.

 

And these are my two cents:

 

Although the people that partake here are generally good people who choose to be here, want to be here, etc etc.. this is not the reality for everyone. Just because we have it good, doesn't mean that the negative realities don't exist.

 

I recently watched two documentaries on Netflix. 'Tricked' and 'Playground'. Both are worth a watch. These stories are real. And terrible. These girls are threatened, drugged, cut off from society (literally locked up while not 'working'), beaten, etc etc. Their families are threatened. They are trapped and scared. The system is broken, and we cannot pretend that it isn't. These documentaries also shockingly highlight how the system fails at carrying out their altruistic goal of protecting and helping the girls / boys. Frustrated victims, frustrated social workers, frustrated people trying to help, frustrated police who see that what the law tells them to do, doesn't help. The only people still smiling are the pimps.

 

These are the stories that 'outshine' the good of this industry. AND THEY SHOULD. One negative situation should have more public spotlight than all of our stories combined.

 

One thing I found fascinating was the excitement from pimps, particularly in Vegas, that think that legalizing the sex trade is the best idea ever. They wouldn't lose the girls under their control, and could expand. They would be safer. They were excited. It would make it worse for those girls. I found this fascinating because that seems to be what a lot of us want (legalizing it). But I wonder if it really would make things better / safer, or if we are just deluding ourselves. Both sides shouldn't see the upside of it.

 

These stories are realities. These girls are real. They are not made up stories from politicians and activists that are 'out to get us'. I'm by no means saying that their approach to fixing this problem is working, but there is a problem. And I would rather our society acknowledge the bad shit that happens, then to sweep it under the rug and say 'well that's the minority of people involved, so who cares'.

 

There is actually a website called 'Baby-Rape'. I think that says enough right there. Or maybe you want some stats such as of the 5,930,615 pornographic pictures of children online that have been reported, only 874 children have been identified.

 

I'll gladly live with the stereotype if it means it will help even one girl / boy.

 

Phaedrus you wrote "Now, everyone reading this post knows damn well that the impressions I've just outlined are absolute crap, and are in no way representative of this industry.". I think that that statement is crap (sorry) and is perpetuating this idea that the problems that exist are not worth acknowledging.

[fortunateone 156618]

 

The first camp has the loudest voices and aren't afraid to use them and can influence others because of this. They paint us with the ugliest brushes, client and worker alike. Most, no matter what we say or what we show them, will probably still continue to believe what they want.

 

.

 

 

The first camp is also able to support their claims about clients by referring to review sites. Even tho reviewers are a small percent of the clients sps see, and the nasty trash talking reviewers are an even smaller percent of that, these are the places where the anti's go to get 'proof' to use against the clients. And by extension, against sex work itself.

 

From those, they have created websites and anti sex work promotional articles to further their agenda to stop sex work, because after all, they have really horrific examples to hold up as proof. They get to say 'in their own words' referring to why 'johns' don't care about sps, and how and why they (clients) would never lift a finger to help one, let alone report to LE if they suspected someone was working against their will, just so long as they get off.

 

And as cc says, they'd be right, because there is a hardcore group of guys, usually the loudest, or frequent posters, or whatever, all just feeding info to the abolitionists. They make our jobs to educate or reeducate the general public or even a fence sitter that much harder, because of course, those guys don't care if someone is forced, or given drugs to work, or underage, their biggest concern is that she didn't appear enthusiastic.

 

I was looking for a recent article to show what I mean, but i can't find it or the key words to search for it. :( in any case, you've seen it all before, i'm sure, that's why you are not on a review site, you are here on cerb.

[mrgreen760 37785]

Pretty simple......the larger society has no expectations about clients behavior at all.

 

Peace

MG

[PatrickGC 10792]

Phaedrus, excellently articulated and accurate points.

 

I recently spoke with the reporter from the CBC National who is preparing a news item on the effects of the new law on escorts. During the initial investigation it was noticed that clients are tremendously underrepresented in the discussions, articles, and media. So indeed, the "supertanker" is slowly turning. I heard about this because I'm involved with the activists and I'm willing to speak out.-if anyone would like this information, just p.m. me and I'll pass it along. At this point I don't know when or if the news story will make it to air and the reporter is to be commended for trying to get perspectives from the client's perspective.

 

 

Apologies for the short reply. My voice dictation software is acting up.

 

PatrickGC

 

Additional Comments:

Agreed FunAdventures blindly legalizing the industry with a history such as ours would be disastrous.

 

However, the goal is to make violence unacceptable and in this context that means "anything against any person's will". As the situation stands now people can not protect themselves because they are now literally farther from being legal and law.

 

Criminals love this, because criminals don't obey the law, by definition, unless it in their favor. This is something bureaucracy just doesn't seem to understand: The Law Only Works On Those Who Acknowledge And Obey It. That's why the current law affects the people here and not the ass holes on the outside. And those same "lovely individuals" usually have access to unencumbered physical resources and the occasional lawyer or two.

 

However if the industry was legalized responsibly, pressure could be brought to bear. I realize that for this to really work it takes a fundamental shift in society. Usually that takes a long time, but not always, nevertheless it must sought after. Because what ever society deems as acceptable behavior has ripple effects of crossed all facets of life. This industry must evolve and be governed by dignity, standards and a code of ethics. Right now some segments of the society aren't concerned enough when someone is harmed or disappears. Apologies for my rant. But the industry and people should be part of the mainstream. Or at least closer to it.

 

PatrickGC

 

A Side Note to lighten things up a little bit: Soon after the new law was enacted an official request was sent to revenue Canada to exempt all working individuals in this industry from income tax. Since any moneys received by way of any transaction under the new law are to be considered obtained by way of extortion. To date revenue Canada has not responded. [if I can find the original article I will post it here.]

 

 

 

I completely agree with CristyCurves.

 

And these are my two cents:

 

Although the people that partake here are generally good people who choose to be here, want to be here, etc etc.. this is not the reality for everyone. Just because we have it good, doesn't mean that the negative realities don't exist.

 

I recently watched two documentaries on Netflix. 'Tricked' and 'Playground'. Both are worth a watch. These stories are real. And terrible. These girls are threatened, drugged, cut off from society (literally locked up while not 'working'), beaten, etc etc. Their families are threatened. They are trapped and scared. The system is broken, and we cannot pretend that it isn't. These documentaries also shockingly highlight how the system fails at carrying out their altruistic goal of protecting and helping the girls / boys. Frustrated victims, frustrated social workers, frustrated people trying to help, frustrated police who see that what the law tells them to do, doesn't help. The only people still smiling are the pimps.

 

These are the stories that 'outshine' the good of this industry. AND THEY SHOULD. One negative situation should have more public spotlight than all of our stories combined.

One thing I found fascinating was the excitement from pimps, particularly in Vegas, that think that legalizing the sex trade is the best idea ever. They wouldn't lose the girls under their control, and could expand. They would be safer. They were excited. It would make it worse for those girls. I found this fascinating because that seems to be what a lot of us want (legalizing it). But I wonder if it really would make things better / safer, or if we are just deluding ourselves. Both sides shouldn't see the upside of it.

 

These stories are realities. These girls are real. They are not made up stories from politicians and activists that are 'out to get us'. I'm by no means saying that their approach to fixing this problem is working, but there is a problem. And I would rather our society acknowledge the bad shit that happens, then to sweep it under the rug and say 'well that's the minority of people involved, so who cares'.

 

There is actually a website called 'Baby-Rape'. I think that says enough right there. Or maybe you want some stats such as of the 5,930,615 pornographic pictures of children online that have been reported, only 874 children have been identified.

 

I'll gladly live with the stereotype if it means it will help even one girl / boy.

 

Phaedrus you wrote "Now, everyone reading this post knows damn well that the impressions I've just outlined are absolute crap, and are in no way representative of this industry.". I think that that statement is crap (sorry) and is perpetuating this idea that the problems that exist are not worth acknowledging.

[mrrnice2 157005]

Let none of us believe that the issue raised in the initial post is a simple one. Most of us to this point have addressed this from our own personal perspective and from a Cerb perspective as is quite natural.

 

When one thinks back to the initial debate, and I use the term with sarcasm, the talk was that this legislation is dangerous, that it would cause harm to sex workers, it would force them to back alleys and that it would kill women. As the legislation came closer to being proclaimed and since, the discussion here has been that it's really not going to have an impact, that LE will and is ignoring it, and that with common sense everyone will be fine and dandy.

 

I was one of the few that disagreed with that perspective from Day 1, and right now I am not yet ready to say that I was wrong. I am more fearful than ever, based on little news items that are starting to appear across the country that LE has simply been putting their ducks in order and are now beginning to enforce the law. Newspapers are starting to refuse advertising ads, Yellow Pages will remove all questionable ads in May, and if one follows Stella from Montreal or Pivot from B.C. one sees the crackdown beginning.

 

It has become politically correct on Cerb to minimize things. As much as I hate to agree with anything that comes from the mouth of Peter MacKay, he is not wrong that many sex workers are victims. Many are victims of economic and social circumstance that forces them to stand on street corners for survival. That is real. The solution of providing a social network, of creating affordable daycare, of creating jobs that are more than working in call centers or as coffee shop hostesses, of keeping real jobs in this country with a real salary, of providing serious viable alternatives to desperate people are all being ignored. Somehow what is important is getting sex workers out of the trade. End of story. There is nothing there as an alternative, nor a recognition that in fact some sex workers do this by making a rational choice.

 

Yes we live in our own personal worlds inside and outside of Cerb but let us not forget that there is another world as well. Just telling each other that everything is fine and dandy does not make it so.

 

So Patrick and FunAdventures and Phaedrus and Christy and Midnight and all that responded to this point have all been right on target - it's just that this is not a simple question and nor is there a simple solution.

 

In the for what its worth department I still send my small and probably insignificant contribution each month to POWER of Ottawa, because one day organizations such as POWER and PIVOT and STELLA and MAGGIES will be the organizations standing up in court for all of us - Cerb clients, Cerb companions and street workers alike.

 

 

 

 

 

I completely agree with CristyCurves.

 

And these are my two cents:

 

Although the people that partake here are generally good people who choose to be here, want to be here, etc etc.. this is not the reality for everyone. Just because we have it good, doesn't mean that the negative realities don't exist.

 

I recently watched two documentaries on Netflix. 'Tricked' and 'Playground'. Both are worth a watch. These stories are real. And terrible. These girls are threatened, drugged, cut off from society (literally locked up while not 'working'), beaten, etc etc. Their families are threatened. They are trapped and scared. The system is broken, and we cannot pretend that it isn't. These documentaries also shockingly highlight how the system fails at carrying out their altruistic goal of protecting and helping the girls / boys. Frustrated victims, frustrated social workers, frustrated people trying to help, frustrated police who see that what the law tells them to do, doesn't help. The only people still smiling are the pimps.

 

These are the stories that 'outshine' the good of this industry. AND THEY SHOULD. One negative situation should have more public spotlight than all of our stories combined.

 

One thing I found fascinating was the excitement from pimps, particularly in Vegas, that think that legalizing the sex trade is the best idea ever. They wouldn't lose the girls under their control, and could expand. They would be safer. They were excited. It would make it worse for those girls. I found this fascinating because that seems to be what a lot of us want (legalizing it). But I wonder if it really would make things better / safer, or if we are just deluding ourselves. Both sides shouldn't see the upside of it.

 

These stories are realities. These girls are real. They are not made up stories from politicians and activists that are 'out to get us'. I'm by no means saying that their approach to fixing this problem is working, but there is a problem. And I would rather our society acknowledge the bad shit that happens, then to sweep it under the rug and say 'well that's the minority of people involved, so who cares'.

 

There is actually a website called 'Baby-Rape'. I think that says enough right there. Or maybe you want some stats such as of the 5,930,615 pornographic pictures of children online that have been reported, only 874 children have been identified.

 

I'll gladly live with the stereotype if it means it will help even one girl / boy.

 

Phaedrus you wrote "Now, everyone reading this post knows damn well that the impressions I've just outlined are absolute crap, and are in no way representative of this industry.". I think that that statement is crap (sorry) and is perpetuating this idea that the problems that exist are not worth acknowledging.

[Mister T 45020]

Phaedrus, excellently articulated and accurate points.

 

I recently spoke with the reporter from the CBC National who is preparing a news item on the effects of the new law on escorts. During the initial investigation it was noticed that clients are tremendously underrepresented in the discussions, articles, and media. So indeed, the "supertanker" is slowly turning. I heard about this because I'm involved with the activists and I'm willing to speak out.-if anyone would like this information, just p.m. me and I'll pass it along. At this point I don't know when or if the news story will make it to air and the reporter is to be commended for trying to get perspectives from the client's perspective.

 

 

Apologies for the short reply. My voice dictation software is acting up.

 

 

It's good you are willing to speak out on this issue, as the number of clients remotely willing to do so is extremely low, barely inexistant to say the least and i speak from experience. The reasons for this are numerous; impacts on their personnal or professional lives come to mind, obviously.

 

One thing come to mind from speaking with local reporters that i can share is to ensure that they do a good piece, stay neutral, and do no go the sensationalist route. One i have dealt with last summer did tremendous pieces in town and garnered some trust in the local community, while another, after my meeting and discussion, suddenly jumped in on the bandwagon to try to get client's perspectives, only in succeeding in getting suspisious glances (including a lack of understanding of the workings of the industry as well as, by the timing of it, seeing an opportunity to get a similar story).

 

I'll be curious to follow that up.

 

Anyway, a quick rambling from away from my laptop.

[Midnite-Energies 110563]

I don't think any of us ignore the truth of things. There is a very real and very serious issue in this country and it seems that our government is set on pushing it's own agenda and weakening us as opposed to being dedicated to making this country a great place.

 

It seems everything coming out lately is designed to remove rights and freedoms, make people more reliant upon government and also more fearful. Thomas Jefferson said "when the government fears the people, there is liberty, when the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

 

We speak, guardedly, about what is close to home, in this case, C36. I say guardedly because the law was designed to silence voices. It was designed to push a point, remove rights and freedoms and shove us all into a hole. It's not about saving us or protecting us, its about control.

 

I am still on the fence about the impact LE will be having and as such, continue to be wary and vigilant.

 

As mrrnice2 pointed out, there doesn't seem to be a lot of initiatives about creating, supporting or making viable. It seems to be more about handing out so you are more reliant on someone/thing, pigeonholing and bringing into line and gaining more control. So many initiatives to protect us from ourselves which only seem to give someone else the job of protecting us however way they deem fit.

 

Legalizing of this industry is a good thing PROVIDED that there are also plans put into place to not only deal with but deter the behaviors we know are present. We need a shift from consensual punishment to punishment for those seeking to lure, abuse, control, harm etc. and those rules need to be firm and unwavering in their execution.

 

I've said this before and will again, that what we've been dealing with is only part of the equation, only a line in a larger drawing. What is written into the law that impacts us has the ability to impact others as it seems many laws being passed these days are. That is a scary thought.

 

I suppose it starts with each one of us governing ourselves according and working to be better than we were. Respect, support, tolerance. If we can't have it for ourselves and those around is, it leeches out into society at large. Change always starts small, with one person and grows from there.

 

It does seem our country is broken and where it goes from here is anyone's guess.

[Phaedrus 209521]

But what you've outlined isn't crap, there in lines the reasons the public perceptions are as they are. There are a lot of clients that don't give a crap, they are there just to get their rocks off and couldn't care a less about the escorts position in life. A lot of the women are in this business because of poverty, drugs, abuse and other negative reasons. Sadly all of these things are true and do shed negativity on the business.

 

What annoys me is the myth that addicts, trafficking victims, assholes and predators are the sum total of this industry, or even a majority. A dark side that exists? Absolutely. A significant problem? For sure. The whole story? I still maintain that's crap. Unfortunately there's a significant abolitionist lobby dedicated to propagating that particular lie, and historically they've been ahead of the pro-sex-work organizations in terms of audience and mindshare. But as I said, that's changing, slowly.

 

You would be hard pressed to find anyone in society to openly admit that an escort could actually enhance or help a coupled relationship, or that an escort may be an educated, level headed, productive member of society.

 

This is true, but that doesn't mean these things don't happen, or even that they aren't common. It just mean that society doesn't know what's going on.

 

I also believe that until society becomes more "European" towards sex, meaning, more accepting and open about it, the acceptance and opinions towards sex workers and their clients will stay unwanted and negative:(

 

Also true, but it won't happen on its own. That's why the pro-sex-work organizations are so important.

 

I recently watched two documentaries on Netflix. 'Tricked' and 'Playground'. Both are worth a watch. These stories are real. And terrible. These girls are threatened, drugged, cut off from society (literally locked up while not 'working'), beaten, etc etc. Their families are threatened. They are trapped and scared. The system is broken, and we cannot pretend that it isn't. These documentaries also shockingly highlight how the system fails at carrying out their altruistic goal of protecting and helping the girls / boys. Frustrated victims, frustrated social workers, frustrated people trying to help, frustrated police who see that what the law tells them to do, doesn't help. The only people still smiling are the pimps.

 

But that doesn't mean these stories are the mainstream; all the documentaries prove are that they exist. So why don't we get documentaries about the good stuff and the happy people? Two reasons, I think: the abolitionists have a lead in their propaganda war, and more importantly, a documentary about happy people who are content with their lives makes for really boring television and nobody would watch it. Netflix and cable companies exist to make money; boring documentaries that nobody will watch will get canned.

 

These are the stories that 'outshine' the good of this industry. AND THEY SHOULD. One negative situation should have more public spotlight than all of our stories combined.

 

Only if you're trying to do the abolitionists' work for them. What should get the spotlight is the truth, not the outliers that tug at the heartstrings. Alas, the truth is often rather dull as well as being hugely detrimental to the abolitionist lobby's goals, so it gets overlooked.

 

One thing I found fascinating was the excitement from pimps, particularly in Vegas, that think that legalizing the sex trade is the best idea ever. They wouldn't lose the girls under their control, and could expand. They would be safer. They were excited. It would make it worse for those girls. I found this fascinating because that seems to be what a lot of us want (legalizing it). But I wonder if it really would make things better / safer, or if we are just deluding ourselves. Both sides shouldn't see the upside of it.

 

Where to start with this?

 

First: what most sex-work activists are arguing for is not legalization, but decriminalization. There's a big difference.

 

As for the pimps... sure, perhaps they're excited by the prospect of coming out of the shadows, but I'm not sure they've thought this through. They're successful at the moment precisely because of the criminalization of the industry, which has two huge consequences; it keeps many potential entrepreneurs out, thus removing competition for the pimps; and it keeps the women working for them scared to go to anyone who might help them improve their situation. As soon as the industry is either decriminalized or legalized, these advantages vanish; other people will come in to set up agencies and brothels that will give the escorts somewhere else to work, and women who are abused or coerced will be far more willing to report that to LE now that the threat of being prosecuted themselves has been removed.

 

These stories are realities. These girls are real. They are not made up stories from politicians and activists that are 'out to get us'. I'm by no means saying that their approach to fixing this problem is working, but there is a problem. And I would rather our society acknowledge the bad shit that happens, then to sweep it under the rug and say 'well that's the minority of people involved, so who cares'.

 

It's not about sweeping anything under the rug; it's about making life better for everyone, especially those who most need it.

 

There is actually a website called 'Baby-Rape'. I think that says enough right there. Or maybe you want some stats such as of the 5,930,615 pornographic pictures of children online that have been reported, only 874 children have been identified.

 

I fail to see the relevance of this to the present conversation. We're talking about sex work. Nobody has proposed raping children. You could probably get away with throwing out a red herring like that on an abolitionist forum; here, you'll be asked to explain yourself.

 

Even tho reviewers are a small percent of the clients sps see, and the nasty trash talking reviewers are an even smaller percent of that, these are the places where the anti's go to get 'proof' to use against the clients. And by extension, against sex work itself.

 

And thus do a few bad apples screw things up for the majority of decent people. Life is like that.

[fortunateone 156618]

These people got 192K from Harper/Mckay, i believe the announcement indicated it is the first of the 20million given out http://www.lacles.org/

 

Stella Montreal got exactly nothing.

 

I don't read French so no idea what they are promising, but the one pic tells me this is an abolition group. Whether they have any real services would be for someone who can read it better than I. I have not heard of a single rescue organization that does or can do more than hand out information or take a phone call report. The idea of them is to provide info to sex workers by telling them who can (maybe) actually help them.

 

One thing we are also seeing is more and more sps assaulted and robbed by small gangs, since C36. I don't think it is a coincidence. If you consider some good clients naturally drop out of seeing sps, that leaves, as expected, sps still needing more appts, so what could sound great (2 guys paying more than what she's normally getting from one), ends up being her undoing. Saying yes when before December she would have said no.

[Mister T 45020]

These people got 192K from Harper/Mckay, i believe the announcement indicated it is the first of the 20million given out http://www.lacles.org/

 

Stella Montreal got exactly nothing.

 

I don't read French so no idea what they are promising, but the one pic tells me this is an abolition group. Whether they have any real services would be for someone who can read it better than I. I have not heard of a single rescue organization that does or can do more than hand out information or take a phone call report. The idea of them is to provide info to sex workers by telling them who can (maybe) actually help them.

 

La Cles is pretty much on the abolitionist side, as opposed to Stella (more supportive IMO). An interview i've seen and posted here (in french of course, as they are active in Montreal), is basically to provide exit strategies out of the "trade". Cant say if they provide real help though... Anyway, just a late night aside.

[Phaedrus 209521]

When one thinks back to the initial debate, and I use the term with sarcasm, the talk was that this legislation is dangerous, that it would cause harm to sex workers, it would force them to back alleys and that it would kill women. As the legislation came closer to being proclaimed and since, the discussion here has been that it's really not going to have an impact, that LE will and is ignoring it, and that with common sense everyone will be fine and dandy.

 

I think you're conflating two situations here. There's also an issue with visibility.

 

The ladies (and guys) to whom the new laws make no difference are the indoor workers, especially the independent ones, and their clients. They can still meet and have fun much as they did before. Different aspects of what they're doing may now be technically illegal, but that makes no difference. There are inconveniences (advertizing has become trickier, as has screening) but these can be worked around, especially by an established escort. We hear a lot from those people here, because those people make up the bulk of the population of this board.

 

The harm, as with most laws like this, is visited primarily on those without the resources to work around the laws; in particular, the street workers. I don't suppose advertizing is an issue for them, but screening is another matter entirely; the new laws have made potential clients more nervous, which makes it that much harder for the street worker to make sure she's not getting into a car with the next Robert Pickton. The sex-work organizations are far more cognizant of these problems than the likes of us; in particular, we don't hear from the people most affected by the new laws because they don't post here.

 

I was one of the few that disagreed with that perspective from Day 1, and right now I am not yet ready to say that I was wrong.

 

I am also unwilling to call it. This will play out over years, not weeks or months.

 

I am more fearful than ever, based on little news items that are starting to appear across the country that LE has simply been putting their ducks in order and are now beginning to enforce the law. Newspapers are starting to refuse advertising ads, Yellow Pages will remove all questionable ads in May, and if one follows Stella from Montreal or Pivot from B.C. one sees the crackdown beginning.

 

I do not see this, particularly. Sure, there were changes when the new law went into effect, and adjustments will continue to be made, but I don't see anything major. LE continue to do occasional sweeps to generate some headlines and convince the pearl-clutchers that Something Is Being Done, but they did that with the old laws too.

 

It has become politically correct on Cerb to minimize things. As much as I hate to agree with anything that comes from the mouth of Peter MacKay, he is not wrong that many sex workers are victims. Many are victims of economic and social circumstance that forces them to stand on street corners for survival. That is real. The solution of providing a social network, of creating affordable daycare, of creating jobs that are more than working in call centers or as coffee shop hostesses, of keeping real jobs in this country with a real salary, of providing serious viable alternatives to desperate people are all being ignored. Somehow what is important is getting sex workers out of the trade. End of story. There is nothing there as an alternative, nor a recognition that in fact some sex workers do this by making a rational choice.

 

There's a lot of bad jobs out there. What you're talking about here is less sex work in particular, and more wholesale changes to society.

 

It's time to make a confession: I'm guilty of exploiting someone else's economic circumstances. I pay a woman, on a regular basis, to do something that I'm ashamed to say I just can't face doing for myself, and which I'd certainly never do for anyone else unless I were truly desperate. I don't know whether she enjoys it, or whether it's what she wants to be doing with her life; I don't know how much of the money I give her she keeps and how much goes to the guy who I call to arrange her visits.

 

She cleans my house.

[CristyCurves 169032]

This is a great thread and everyone has made valid points. We all want things to improve, know what is truly going on. Yet we all see what is going on in society slightly different, to be expected, since we all have different interactions with society. I feel society does know what is going on, as well. Not everyone has their head in the sand, believes in the myths and that the negativity's are the majority. However, those negative aspects of the business are what many will use against this profession to convince many it shouldn't be accepted or acceptable and it is those negativities that are always shown in the news or brought to light in discussions which favor this profession. They'd never do stories on "happy companions" or "happy clients", that would defeat their purpose.

I feel some in society simply dislike the business because they feel it encourages cheating, and other sexual "no no's, that some are taught to be bad.

Until the general opinion of sex changes, until it is accepted as a need, can be marketed, that sharing it is okay and we do it for more reasons that to procreate, and that it is okay to do it with someone you aren't coupled or married to, until then, many will be against this business. I think it is these reasons that many are against it and uncaring towards clients thoughts or needs, more than the issues with it's seedy side. Sex is still a scary subject for many. someday soon I'm hoping it'll be thought of as another biological need, just as eating and sleeping are and just as we all need different foods to maintain our health, many need different forms of sexual gratification, different partners, and at different times and amounts.

[Eric Northman 16522]

All of you who are making arguments about trafficking, pimping, violence, drugs etc. making up a significant portion of this trade are forgetting something. We have very real and significant counter examples in places like New Zealand and Australia where legalization/decriminalization are having measurable positive effects on the social problems of prostitution. The New Zealand Ministry of Justice reported that "Information received from Immigration Service NZ indicates that no situations involving trafficking in the sex industry have been identified."

 

Don't be fooled. The creators of these documentaries and stories have an agenda. Anecdotes don't make statistics.

[PatrickGC 10792]

One thing come to mind from speaking with local reporters that i can share is to ensure that they do a good piece, stay neutral, and do no go the sensationalist route. One i have dealt with last summer did tremendous pieces in town and garnered some trust in the local community, while another, after my meeting and discussion, suddenly jumped in on the bandwagon to try to get client's perspectives, only in succeeding in getting suspisious glances (including a lack of understanding of the workings of the industry as well as, by the timing of it, seeing an opportunity to get a similar story).

 

Mistert you nailed it . The media often comes in with an agenda which is simply to sell more airtime or paper and to then ended and they can absolutely butcher an interview. One trick I learned is not to allow them to use buzzwords. In interviews I use my full name and insist that in the very least my first name is used. My favorite tagline is "it's all about people's dignity and humanity". But why it can be difficult to survive the cutting room floor. Especially when one considers any agreement to sign gives them free rein. However those of us that can must keep articulating the message that it is about the people, humanity, and dignity.

 

I've said this before and will again, that what we've been dealing with is only part of the equation, only a line in a larger drawing. What is written into the law that impacts us has the ability to impact others as it seems many laws being passed these days are. That is a scary thought.

 

Midnite-Energies's point cannot be understated No law or action stays in a vacuum. It has already affected advertising and will affect future decision-making in a negative way if left unchallenged. Just a few years ago who would ever think that this site would have to adopt a blacklist of words? This is the classic "slippery slope". Not everyone can fight politically or afford to lay everything on the line. But we all have friends who we can influence, and they in turn can influence us back. That's the ticket-to be engaged and not just wait for someone else to make the right choice. Regardless of the issue.

 

 

PatrickGC

[Grass_Hopper 18263]

I think education is the key. During the past decades, religion has been the main educational tool society had to educate people about sex (?!?).

 

I think, from an old school perception, having sex is a sin because we are ''suppose'' to make babies, and that's what sex is for.

 

For us, this is all WRONG! Sex is a new way to VENT, to enjoy LIFE, to make EXERCISE, and to get rid of the STRESS of the day. This is a whole new psychology...

 

Don't worry, it will eventually be accepted in society, just as alcool (prohibition) and drugs (medical uses)...

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Excuse me for what I am going to say, but the majority of clients are as what Peter MacKay said, just perverts. Yes, there are legitimate clients, but they are far in between and that's why companions screen! How many of companions received offers for illegal activities (drugs etc.)? What is the percentage of those who actually get the companion's address? We deal daily with perverts and our job is to weed them off.

 

The next question is how many of the sex workers are there by their free well? I won't comment on this aspect, but when I see ads explicitly advertising as 'party' girl/t-girl, then we are having a serious problem. I have long been against a full decriminalization of this industry, as I have always believed that this business is not a social welfare program, but a highly sophisticated one where the natural skills of survival prevail. Of course, the hobbyists want the opposite, a free flesh market where the best inhumane deal could be made, akin to drive through!

 

Please don't get offended, this post is not directed at any one, just a mere opinion. Je Suis Charlie!

[Ice4fun 78407]

Excuse me for what I am going to say, but the majority of clients are as what Peter MacKay said, just perverts. Yes, there are legitimate clients, but they are far in between and that's why companions screen! How many of companions received offers for illegal activities (drugs etc.)? What is the percentage of those who actually get the companion's address? We deal daily with perverts and our job is to weed them off.

 

The next question is how many of the sex workers are there by their free well? I won't comment on this aspect, but when I see ads explicitly advertising as 'party' girl/t-girl, then we are having a serious problem. I have long been against a full decriminalization of this industry, as I have always believed that this business is not a social welfare program, but a highly sophisticated one where the natural skills of survival prevail. Of course, the hobbyists want the opposite, a free flesh market where the best inhumane deal could be made, akin to drive through!

 

Please don't get offended, this post is not directed at any one, just a mere opinion. Je Suis Charlie!

 

As I have never worked in the industry I certainly can't have the same perspective as people who have but I can't help but think that the criminalization of this industry by government (either with the current or previous laws) only creates an environment where the "perverts" as you refer to them get to perpetuate their inappropriate behavior.

 

In a legal, regulated and safe work environment these types of behaviors would not be tolerated but when forced to work in the shadows sex workers and for that matter clients have to except that this is just part of the business.

 

As for people participating in this industry against their free will.... I think we all know this happens ... some because they are coerced into the industry by others (pimps, traffickers etc) and others because of financial desperation. I don't think that the simple Legalization of this industry would make this problem just disappear but it would I hope improve the working conditions for many in the industry... hopefully it would over time reduce the social stigma associated with working in the industry and would make it easier for those in the industry against their free will to reach out for help in getting out of the industry. I also would hope that it would allow Law Enforcement to clearly focus their attention on the situations where coercion is at play ( traffickers and pimps).

 

Finally while I am sure there are clients out there looking for a "free flesh market where the best inhumane deal could be made, akin to drive through!" I am not sure it's all that fair to paint that picture of all hobbyists.

 

Just my Opinion

 

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